Gen. Musharraf Visits Delhi

PAKISTAN PRESIDENT GENERAL PERVEZ MUSHARRAF HAS GOT THE RIGHT IDEA, BUT DOES HE HAVE THE RIGHT HEART?

UNKE NAYE DIL ME KITNI TAKAD HAI AB WAQT HI BATA PAAYEGA!

STILL, I THINK HE HAS BEGAN TO REALLY UNDERSTAND HIS RESPONSIBILITIES NOW. MILITARY SOLUTIONS HAVE NOW BECOME OBSOLETE. MOREOVER, HE HAS TO LIFT PAKISTAN UP HER FEET.

INDIA`S CASE IS ALMOST TOTALLY DIFFERENT:-

#1 INDIA, BEING A DEMOCRACY, SOME (MOST) PARTS OF ITS POPULATION WOULDN`T EVEN CARE WHOM INDIA`S HAVING A WAR WITH.

#2 INDIA REGARDS PAKISTAN AS EITHER:-
A TROBOULSOME NUISANCE OR, IF FREINDLY, THEN, AN IMPORTANT ALLY.

#3 INDIA WANTS TO EXPAND HER ECONOMIC CAPABILITIES, A REALIZATION THAT PAKISTAN IS RECENTLY WAKING UP TO.

#4 WHILE THE GOVERNMENT TAKES CARE OF THE FOREIGN POLICIES, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA (ESPECIALLY THOSE HAVING BUISSINES INTERESTS) HAVE THEIR MINDS INDEPENDENT OF THE GOVERNMENT`S POLICIES.

I THINK GENERAL MUSHARRAF IS DOING THE RIGHT THING:- HE IS TRYING TO OPEN UP PAKISTAN AND SEPARATE THE MILITARY FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND NORMAL CIVILLIAN LIFE. NO WONDER HE IS FACING SUCH OPPOSITION AS WELL AS FULL-HEARTED SUPPORT. HOPE PAKISTAN TAKES UP ALL GOOD LESSONS AND FOLLOWS THE PATH OF PROGRESS.

cayenne,
thanks man. its no big deal theres enough information out there neways. im glad u made the effort :)

nebody read post #69

Re: # 70

Paindu....

I`m sorry man.I`m off to chennai tomorrow on a 6am flt. for a business trip.I`m going to sleep early tonight.I will check out the info(the pak scribe) from my hotel room tomorrow.Saturday i`m off to Pondicherry for the weekend.No tax on booze and i heard they have a cabaret!!!.I am eager to check it out!!.Cheers.

Re: # 70

I wish i did.He was giving, along with an indian ecpert,running commentary, during tv coverage of the Mush visit.Visit www.NDTV.com.you might be able to archive info or you can email the compere or the tv station,(i`m guessing all this) , for more info.The ndtv anchor`s name is Burkha Dutt.She must be punjabi `cause she always has indo-pak issues a mainstay of all her discussions on this channel.I`m at work right now.I`ll try and research it when i get home later this evening.Good luck!!

Re: # 68
cayenne,
do u know which newspaper this guy was representing. i`d like to dig up the details online. thanks

#65 by chandala on April 27, 2005 0:08am PT
#64 by dost-mittar on April 26, 2005 7:41pm PT
guys thanks for your input. i will try posting what i find to share with you guys

#66 by arjun_m on April 27, 2005 4:57am PT
i can understand why you would feel that way, but trust me, i had no such thing in mind. india maybe bigger but pakistan has done more of the `kirkiri` `chero chari` with india like a pesky kid. what we did in bangladesh, what we`ve been doing to baluchistan and nwfp...well its a lengthy story but basically pakistan has been messing up a lot.
i understand a question like the one i posted usually makes ppl think im blaming india for everything or whatever. i was just trying to getting more input from u guys so that i could know more about what u guys think and know.

#67 by ferozk on April 27, 2005 5:01am PT

i agree so much with your views. again my point was not to say india has done the damage and pakistan is just a victim. i have studied the kashmir topic in print and in discussion n debate with indian friends as well as in open forums (face to face ones not online). my conclusion is not about who is at fault. its much similar to what u r saying. that enuf blood has been shed and we need to stop the bleeding and start the ehaling process in kashmir. this has to some extent been possible of late. thanks to the steps taken by leaders of both countries. i hope that trend continues but even more importantly whats important is for pakistan to overhaul its education system. these madaris that teach the language of hatred need to be put in check. only proper islamic education shud be taught not courses in hate and revenge. and from the indian side, i hope that indians realize that denying the right of freedom and self will to ppl is a really big crime. i have limited knowledge about what really goes on in kashmir but i do feel they are highly misrepresented by both countries. i could go on and on but what i want to point out is, as u so accurately mentioned that media on both sides has been telling a one-sided story which has been decieved the public. i have come to realize this over time but we`re all pretty ignorant and predujiced and we readily accept what we want to and reject what does not seem to fit our mindset. i do hope that in the coming decades both countries ``somehow`` solcve the whole dispute. we need to move on but this may be hard to do...as most pakistanis feel they have the religious duty to fight for it. i hope we as a ppl realize that victory doesnt lie in destroying the enemy rather in the progress made thru mutual cooperation and partnership. lets see what happens.

Re: # 67

A pakistani newspaper man , who was commenting on the recent New Delhi summit reporting by NDTV sunday before last was mentioning a poll wherein a majority of the respondents(all indian kashmiris) preferred to stay in India.Now, to be fair, 15.9%, according to the pak scribe preferred the ``Hurriyat`` leadership to decide their affairs.That is a considerable sum of people, according to him, and they should have a say.I agree.But , in a democracy, the majority wins, or a coalition of the majority wins.And, i wish i has enough brain power to remember the scribe`s name , but he himself did not deny the fact that a majority of the poeple of J & K , want to remain a part of India.I saw a blurb of a Musharaf interview to PTV on `headlines today` channel at the cafeteria, wherin he was `appealing` to paks to support him find a settlement to the difficult and complex peace process between pak and india.All his words.The writing is on the wall and india has won this round.Who knows what will happen the next decade?.But for now, i think the paks should give it up and play ball with india.

re: harish_hyd # 52

Yes, I do appreciate that point but it still does not lessen the childish nature of the debate. :)

Allow me to explain my point of view.

I think, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that both Indians and Pakistan to a degree exist in a mode of self-denial in which they minimize their own faults and maximize other person`s faults.

I agree that there is nothing wrong to set the record straight, but what misses our collective attention, and it is something which both of our compatriots deny, is the similarity which exists between us when it comes to our own transgressions. While we castigate the other, we seem to think that a similar flaw does not exist within our own self and within our societies. I am not objecting to setting the record straight, but I am objecting to a particular moral grandstanding, which our nations and our two peoples routinely practice.

In this case, I do not think that the pot should be calling the kettle black and vice versa. :)

re: paindupastry

First of all, I did not know the background to your question when I posted my reply to your question. However, having an understanding of the context in which you asked the question, my answer would still be the same, but I will add a post-script to it.

I do not blame your Indian friends for denying that any atrocities were committed by the Indian security forces in Kashmir. I would expect nothing less from them. The reason is quite simple. I cannot speak for the Indian media per se, but if I have to extrapolate a reason from the experience of the Pakistani media`s reporting of Kashmir, I would venture a guess that most Indians know only half the story of what is happening in Kashmir. Just as the Pakistani media periodically highlights human rights abuses of the Kashmiris at the hand of the Indian forces and waters down the violence perpetuated on them by jihadi groups, I believe that the Indian media also waters down the abuses of the Indian forces and highlight the violence committed by militant groups in Kashmir.

The problem which showcases itself in the denial of your friends and it manifests itself in the denials of Pakistanis about their role in the violence in Kashmir, is one of ignorance and indifferance. It is an ignorance practiced by the media, on both sides, to report only a very narrow perspective of the story and it is an indifference on our part, because we only feel the pain, because we might have a sense of empathy with the victim on either the basis of religion or nationalist grounds. We, Pakistanis feel the pain of the Kashmiris abuse by Indian security forces and the Indians feel the pain of the cross-border terrorism in Kashmir, but still we feel the pain of the Kashmiris based on our unique bias, which shapes our reactions to the events in Kashmir.

The real tragedy is that in our arguments and justifications, we have dehumanized the average Kashmiri and what we do not seem to realize or care to admit, is that whether pain is inflicted by jihadis or Indian security forces, the pain is still nevertheless inflicted upon a human being and the pain and suffering inflicted is very real. The real change for the better will come when both of our nations will stop fighting each other to the last Kashmiri and that will only happen, once we start the process of humanizing the problem in Kashmir and towards that end, the recent opening of human - people to people - contacts is a welcome step towards a possible solution to the problem.

Hence, my friend, your friends are simply defending what they believe is to be the truth and it is not their fault that those who know the real truth have not told them what is the truth! :)

Ciao

#63 by paindupastry on April 26, 2005 1:20pm PT

I suspect you`re more interested in playing the ``oh look you big bad indians have killed so many kashmiris and you need to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan to atone for your sins`` game...

Re: # 63

Amnesty International says total casualties have been 38,000 since 1989 (2004 figures).
http://reform.house.gov/UploadedFiles/kumar%20testimony.pdf

paindupastry:

No one can answer your question because no one knows. There is not even an agreed upon estimate of total casualties, let alone civilian casualties of Indian forces. As for civilian casualties, Indian official sources would admit to few or none, whereas supporters of insurgency would claim an exhorbitantly large number. You might want to do a google search of Indian human rights organizations, who have done the most work in this area.

apart from arujunm no one has tried answering my question properly. i expected more from u chowkies....maybe im being impatient...but it seems other posts are being responded to. well neways i tried to get an answer.

Re: # 59

Okay.I`ll try again.This time i picture you looking like Karnam Malleswari(Indian Weightlifting Bronze medal winner 2000 Olympics), with a turban.NO?.

Re: # 51

I agree.The past or the future?.Audi today displayed their latest offering for the indian market, the Audi A6, in the lobby of my office building in Mumbai and had a few reps and scantily clad women to attract us derelicts towards them.Good marketing move.But, symbolically, i felt that this is the new india that we are moving towards, market driven, ambitious, hard working and shorn of the past, the petty, narrow minded past.Who knows what religion the people who went to check out the car were?.They were potential customers.They were indians by default, by being there and all looking somewhat similar, like white people do.We are moving away from parochialism to nationalism, the new india offering us our dreams if we are able to realize them , in our very own backyards.We are a very big market.The corporate world will secure J & K for us.That is the price they will willingly pay for access to our pocketbooks.And, we will be more than happy to oblige them.

Ferozk,

I applaud your post. It is high time that people realized that no side has the moral highground. I believe the insurgence has gone down quite a bit in recent times, mainly because of the fence constructed on the LOC.

regards,

Shishapa:

``There were not attrocities commited by Indian troops in Kashmir.
ISI trained terroris in Pakistan to commit all kinds of attrocities in the garb of
Indian troops to malign the image of Indian troops. Indian troops are not capable of
doing any attrocities. If ever they did, they can`t be Indian troops, for Indian troops
are trained and taught only to fight enemy and not commit any attrocities on anybody.

Hope it helps towards your better understanding of pristine nature of Indian troops. ``

HAHAHA!!! That was hilarious. Welcome to Chowk.


FerozeK:

Nation is supportive of Nawaz Sharif`s PML. It backed the Islami Jamhoori Ittehad and was against the PPP within Punjab.

Also, not withstanding Nawaz Shari`s efforts at reapproachment, the current stance of the PML N is aginast Mush`s peace initatives simply because they oppose eveything he does. Also, it caters well in an emotional sense to PML N core supporters who are the equivilant of the BJP`s core supporters in India. Largly urban, trading class types.