The Book is also Just a Book

Re: #338 by Mantolives

[Islam is based on as much an untruth as whatever religion you follow is based on untruth. My guess is that you are a Hindu... then should we even start by dissecting Hindu mythology? ]

There is a difference between mythology and history.


[So here is the deal... I am a Muslim and I will leave Islam for the reason you`ve enumerated provided you denounce your own religion and tell Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and everyone else to renounce all religions immediately. ]

As far as denouncing Hinduism is concerned, point out to me the things you feel I should denounce, and I’ll denounce those, if appropriate.

I do not gain much in this “deal” if one person such as yourself leaves Islam. There are thousands of others that cannot or will not be persuaded. If you renounce Islam, you should do it because you feel that you must, not because of what everybody else is doing.

And you should not have to leave Islam because it is based on an untruth.

You might of course, as a self-respecting individual, and one who is vehemently opposed to pedophilia, rape of innocent war-victims etc. decide not to base your life on the words and credibility of someone like Mohammed.

I really don’t care, and neither should anybody, what nonsense ANYONE believes in, as long as it is not harmful to others.

But Islam IS harmful to others. It SPECIFICALLY instructs its followers to convert the world into Dar-us-Salam by violence as necessary, and assign second-class or dhimmi status to all non-believers. These unfortunates are supposed to pay taxes as the price for not being persecuted. This is a worldview that is intolerable for people of every other religion, and should be for the decent people amongst the Muslims as well.



[Because as far as I can see... you`ve provided me with no evidence which suggests that Islam is in any way different from any other religion.]

As far as theological issues go, I don’t care whether it is the same or different. I could, of course, spends hours writing about it, but it is irrelevent in the current context.

But politically and sociologically Islam is much more dangerous than any other religion. Because it aims to take away the freedoms we enjoy today.



If you feel that another religion is threatening to take away your freedoms, then you have every right to engage people of that religion in dialogue and persuade them to leave that misguided path.

Re: #345 by dost-mittar

[ajeya:

There is no inconsistency. I have already said that he is not MY role model. But I do believe in respecting other people`s sentiments. This whole thing started when I tried to make a distinction between respecting a religion and its adherents. I still believe in respecting people, even when I don`t respect their beliefs.]


I ONLY RESPECT THOSE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH DESPICABLE ACTS OR CONCUR WITH DESPICABLE BELIEFS.

Ajeya is right on the mark. You cannot respect a pedophile. Imagine having a known pedophile Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, or a Prime Minister, or a President or a Pope or a Teacher. What respect you have for such a person? You just tolerate that person because of the position he/she/it holds.

It would be like that despicable creature Musharraf punishing pakistanis who break the law and commit a crime. He himself has broken the law and commited a crime and he is going to punish pakistanis for doing the same and should be respected and listened to and followed, from the heart?

ajeya:

There is no inconsistency. I have already said that he is not MY role model. But I do believe in respecting other people`s sentiments. This whole thing started when I tried to make a distinction between respecting a religion and its adherents. I still believe in respecting people, even when I don`t respect their beliefs.

#340 by dost-mittar

[Ajeya:

Let me respond to some of your points from a non-muslim perspective.

Regardless of Hazrat Mohammad being a prophet, I think that it is unfair to criticise him for marrying a child; age at marriage is a cultural thing and child marriages take place among Hindus in Rajasthan even today.]

It is not unfair at all. A 50-year-old man wanting to have sex with a little child is perverted, no matter what the culture. He did not HAVE to do it, just because some people in that culture did it. He should have been setting examples. (And I am not even talking about him raping MANY slavewomen while being married to a dozen or so women. Some of the women he had sex with – he had killed their husband that same day. Respect? You must be joking.). I don’t want to hear ANYTHING he has to say.

In Rajasthan, child marriage does take place. There children marry other children. Don’t try to obfuscate.

You can respect whoever you want. But the fact is, I would not even let a person like him into my house.



[ You would have been on a firmer ground if you had objected to his banning a teen-age Ayesha and his other wives from remarrying after his death; fortunately, he explicitly forbade Muslims to use him as a role model in this particular aspect. ]

I am on VERY firm ground. It is muslims who do not have ground beneath their feet.



[You do not have to consider someone flawless to respect him or her. I deeply respect my parents even though I don`t think that they were infallible. Most Hindus wouldn`t say that Ram did the right thing in banishing Sita from his house, but it doesn`t prevent them from opening the Ramayan or worshipping, let alone, respect Ram. ]

Having a few human flaws is one thing. But pedophilia is quite another. As I said, you can respect whoever you want. But the world never will. Unless there is a knife to their throat.



[Manto is right about the differences in various sects wrt the Prophet. In my opinion, the ``worship`` of the Prophet is mostly a desi thing and is probably due to the influence of Hinduism. I believe that perhaps the only differene between Deobandis and Wahabbi Arabs is wrt the position accorded to the prophet. Desi muslims asked for and got a holiday for the prophet`s birthday, Id-ul-Nabi. I wonder what would have happened if the picture of the prophet was permitted in India as it was at one time permitted in Iran. I heard from some desi muslims that the Arab security people would lightly hit desi pilgrims trying to offer prayers at the Prophet`s graveyard in Madina. This was some years ago and may not be true now.]

Again, all these sect-related issues are irrelevant and obfuscatory. No Muhammad, no Quran, no Islam.

Period.


Anyway talking to you guys is like like straightening a dog’s tail. You let it go, and it curls up again. There is no end to this..

People who would respect such a man have very LOW self-esteem.

That’s the end of it.


And you seem rather schizophrenic. Are you trying to make up for your sacrilegous comments earlier? If you are, it is already too late. You have already switched over from the Dar-us-salam to Dar-ul-Harab (or some such nonsense). There’s eternal hellfire and all kinds of bad things (cold coffee?) waiting for you in the hereafter. It’s no point.

And if you are trying to recover your previous Chowkie status, you can`t. Urstruly would happily slit your throat in the prescribed manner in a second.

Isn’t this essay about Quran Flushing? Why is this other debate going on?

I wonder why such a big deal about Quran in the toilet? Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t Muslims believe that other scripture (e.g., Torah, the Old Testament) have been altered? Do you think that that is not an insult to tell others that their holy books have been altered? If it is sanctioned by your belief system, then toilet is the right place for your books. Use a plunger (Hadis) to unclog whatever is left of it.

masanmuthu#341

I am not apologetic about Hazrat Mohammad and he is not my role model. But one should be objective in one`s criticism, especially of someone who is held in such high esteem by more than a billion people. And I dont see what the Prophet marrying a six year old had to do with jihadis flying planes into WTC.

Re: # 340

dost-mittar:

``Regardless of Hazrat Mohammad being a prophet, I think that it is unfair to criticise him for marrying a child; age at marriage is a cultural thing and child marriages take place among Hindus in Rajasthan even today. You would have been on a firmer ground if you had objected to his banning a teen-age Ayesha and his other wives from remarrying after his death..``

---

LOL.. Why are you feeling apologetic??.. The fact of the matter is the character of Mohammed.. Ajeya is raising valid points.. I don`t have any serious affiliations to any religion. We`re not discussing about Ram or Sita. I think Sita should have kicked Rama`s a** when he asked her to go thru fire.. But I`d discuss about that when followers of Ram fly planes into buildings for spreading Ramrajya.. (the equivalent of jihad)

If you read Mohammed`s life-history from a non-biased perspective, he comes out as one smart dude, who had lots of fun in his life, waged wars,, took sex-slaves, married lots of wives including a 6 yr old.. all the time preaching some BS about talking to angel , getting revelations etc.. :-)). Now I don`t have any problems with people following his smartness. As a matter of fact people should convert to Islam when they are 50, see if they can pickup some young chicks.. just kidding.... :-))

Ajeya:

Let me respond to some of your points from a non-muslim perspective.

Regardless of Hazrat Mohammad being a prophet, I think that it is unfair to criticise him for marrying a child; age at marriage is a cultural thing and child marriages take place among Hindus in Rajasthan even today. You would have been on a firmer ground if you had objected to his banning a teen-age Ayesha and his other wives from remarrying after his death; fortunately, he explicitly forbade Muslims to use him as a role model in this particular aspect.

``IF you as a muslim cannot respect him, then WHY would you even listen to him, and therefore why would you even open the Quran?``

You do not have to consider someone flawless to respect him or her. I deeply respect my parents even though I don`t think that they were infallible. Most Hindus wouldn`t say that Ram did the right thing in banishing Sita from his house, but it doesn`t prevent them from opening the Ramayan or worshipping, let alone, respect Ram.

Manto is right about the differences in various sects wrt the Prophet. In my opinion, the ``worship`` of the Prophet is mostly a desi thing and is probably due to the influence of Hinduism. I believe that perhaps the only differene between Deobandis and Wahabbi Arabs is wrt the position accorded to the prophet. Desi muslims asked for and got a holiday for the prophet`s birthday, Id-ul-Nabi. I wonder what would have happened if the picture of the prophet was permitted in India as it was at one time permitted in Iran. I heard from some desi muslims that the Arab security people would lightly hit desi pilgrims trying to offer prayers at the Prophet`s graveyard in Madina. This was some years ago and may not be true now.

Re: #338 by Mantolives


[Ajeya,

About the academic side of the debate... I am pointing out that several sources contradict the dolls story...]


Here’s some quotes:

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
`A`isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah`s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated `Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated `Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).`` what you know of the Quran (by heart)`
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated `Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated `Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for `Aisha`s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said ``But I am your brother.`` The Prophet said, ``You are my brother in Allah`s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.``



[ but I think the discussion should move beyond what Muhammad was or wasn`t. ]

You cannot. Without Mohammed, there is no Quran. Without the Quran, there is no Islam.



[I am not aware as to what prescription ``Quran`` has for people like me. Please enlighten me.]

I will, tomorrow, if you REALLY want to know. But only AFTER you concede my “central point”.

The prescription is not very pleasant, though. I remember some of it, but I would like to give you exact quotes. I have to go do some things now.



[As far as I know the idea that the Prophet is not infallible is the basis for several sects some of them exceptionally extremist like the Wahabis... maybe your knowledge isn`t that great. ]

Sects can do whatever they want. The basic facts are VERY simple. No Mohammed, no Quran, no Islam. Period.



[Islam is based on as much an untruth as whatever religion you follow is based on untruth. My guess is that you are a Hindu... then should we even start by dissecting Hindu mythology?

So here is the deal... I am a Muslim and I will leave Islam for the reason you`ve enumerated provided you denounce your own religion and tell Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and everyone else to renounce all religions immediately.

Because as far as I can see... you`ve provided me with no evidence which suggests that Islam is in any way different from any other religion.]

This is a very deserving question (although not connected to the previous point we were discussing). And I want to do justice to this. So since I have to leave now, I’ll post about this as soon as possible.

Re: # 337

Ajeya,

About the academic side of the debate... I am pointing out that several sources contradict the dolls story... but I think the discussion should move beyond what Muhammad was or wasn`t.

I am not aware as to what prescription ``Quran`` has for people like me. Please enlighten me. As far as I know the idea that the Prophet is not infallible is the basis for several sects some of them exceptionally extremist like the Wahabis... maybe your knowledge isn`t that great.


Islam is based on as much an untruth as whatever religion you follow is based on untruth. My guess is that you are a Hindu... then should we even start by dissecting Hindu mythology?

So here is the deal... I am a Muslim and I will leave Islam for the reason you`ve enumerated provided you denounce your own religion and tell Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and everyone else to renounce all religions immediately.

Because as far as I can see... you`ve provided me with no evidence which suggests that Islam is in any way different from any other religion.

Re: #335 by Mantolives


[Ok I found the ``central issue``...


[According to sources both western and Islamic the key phrase was ``puberty``... so I am unwilling to accept that Ayesha bint-e- Abu bakr was 6 years of age (unless you find me a 6 year old hitting puberty... so either puberty has been delayed or 6 years doesn`t mean what it meant in that day). The narrations of her life are replete with examples of maturity. There are several works that contradict this 6 year claim... ]

She was a little child who used to play with dolls, for heaven’s sake.

[Still the point that you`ve raised is a valid one... should we look at great religious figures as infallible ? So let us accept your objection in principle.... and move on to the next point... ]

1) There IS NO moving on to any next point. Islam says that Prophet Mohammed was the perfect example of humanity. So Islam must be based on a basic untruth.

2) There is a prescription for people like yourself who say that the Prophet is not infallible. This prescription in mentioned in the Quran. Would you agree to such a prescription?

3) ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in the Quran came out of Mohammed’s mouth. IF you as a muslim cannot respect him, then WHY would you even listen to him, and therefore why would you even open the Quran?



[What is your next point? Should Muslims leave Islam because you allege/claim that the Prophet was pedophile?? ]

YES THEY MOST DEFINITELY SHOULD.

I would, if I was Muslim.

Re: # 334


responded above...

Also please note that where I used the word ``phrase`` I meant ``word``.

Re: # 333

Ok I found the ``central issue``...


According to sources both western and Islamic the key phrase was ``puberty``... so I am unwilling to accept that Ayesha bint-e- Abu bakr was 6 years of age (unless you find me a 6 year old hitting puberty... so either puberty has been delayed or 6 years doesn`t mean what it meant in that day). The narrations of her life are replete with examples of maturity. There are several works that contradict this 6 year claim...

Still the point that you`ve raised is a valid one... should we look at great religious figures as infallible ? So let us accept your objection in principle.... and move on to the next point...

What is your next point? Should Muslims leave Islam because you allege/claim that the Prophet was pedophile??

If thats not your assertion then... you are merely obfuscating. My point comes down to the same thing... All religions are practically the same ... fallible, contradictory and wrought with problems... Here then we see that it is the witchdoctors who stand in the way of reformation.

-YLH

PS: My posts 321 and 323 had nothing to do with your discussion so please do feel free to get a life any time now.

Re: #333 by Mantolives

[And what is the central issue....please enlighten... ]

I already mentioned it in my post #332:

[(see my post #331 for the CENTRAL ISSUE)]

But I will mention it again, because I`m COMPLETELY sure you did not notice it. :-)


HERE IS THE CENTRAL ISSUE:

IT IS OBSCENE, PERVERTED, AND PEDOPHILIC FOR A 50-YEAR OLD MAN TO BE SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO A 6-YEAR-OLD LITTLE GIRL.

WHETHER SOCIETY HAS LAWS AGAINST IT OR NOT.


KINDLY ADDRESS THIS CENTRAL ISSUE

Re: # 332

And what is the central issue....please enlighten...