The Dance of the Damned

In the days of IT Prowess, emerging Superpower, Nuclear Deal with the US, $145 Billion in FE, Sensex crossing 8000, we Indians tend to forget that that we are still a country with 70% of population living under $1 a day. The events like Gohana brutally remind us of our true status. I dont intend to discount the progress being made in the country in every sphere but Gohanas are still a reality with whom we have to live for a long long time to come.

#187, {````pimples on the cadavre of Miss Universe`` - ha ha... How did you come up with THAT ? ``}

By trying to abide by Chowk guidelines. I would have placed the pimples elsewhere. Sometimes there is humor in caution. :)

Ajeya and Rsridhar,
You guys have interesting thoughts on this subject but by demonstrating hatred against the Muslims and trying to cleanse them, aren`t you doing what they already did to us?

I don`t think that Indians hates Muslims as much as they hate Pakistanis.
Why did India for decades play the tune of Muslim Palestine(Arafat etc), while Islamic Pakistan was trying to pull the Dhoti from the rear all the time, while its own Shalwar was slipping(Mohajirs and Sindis)??

I think Muslim world will see lots of changes otherwise whole world be on their case shortly, and it would not be like crusades, they will be forced to comply due to scale of economics not in their favor.

Even on Chowk if you notice, after 9-11, you dont see Islamic supremacy and other talks from some fanatic version of Pakistani Nationals, obviously what you are calling danda is really the pressure from rest of the world that is through technology or economics.

Footnote: I really think that Ajeya you should leave Chowk unless you have time to waste, like most others.

Re: # 183 Salim

``pimples on the cadavre of Miss Universe`` - ha ha... How did you come up with THAT ?

Back during my Arabic classes in Delhi, while teaching us the Arabic equivalents of various trades, I remember my teacher telling us that among the Muslims it was considered undesirable to have any dealing with the people the Arabic equivalent of whose profession had the middle letter written with an alif and a madda and she rattled off several such professions. I can only remember one: hajjam. Obviously, the Muslims in the subcontinent are wedded to the caste system, too.
Recently a community calling itself Brahmin(?) Christians in South India refused to pass control of their church to a low caste preacher. So, the Christians are not out of the caste system loop either.

Sorry I missed the party. I was too busy having fun with ISNA CHIKNA. I enjoyed reading the discussions concerning Muslim names in the various parts of India and Pakistan. As my family chose to retain and be proud of our own Hindu last name, let me offer my perspective on this subject:

Various parts of India were Islamized at different periods by different people. The Indus River, with some exceptions, was the barrier between India and eastern Persia for a long time. The conversions were as follows for the most part - Sindh in 8th century by Arabs, Punjab in 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries by Afghans and Central Asian Turks, and Bengal in 12th, 13th centuries by Muslim Sufi saints. There was very little conversion in what became UP and Bihar - these places had high percentage of very religious Hindus and many Brahmins. Central and Southern India saw the influx of Muslims from the north as a result of military campaigns and free-lance adventurers. One notable exception is the Arab contact with the people of Kerala, especially near Cochin.

Persians held on to many of their names and these were liberally used as first names among those who were under Persian influence, which was almost all of Indian Muslims. First names could be Persian (Pervez, Javaid, Aftab, Shaheen, Yasmeen) or Arabic (Ali, Hassan, Omar, Mohammad), and sometimes Turkish and Mongol (Timur, Genghis, Orkhan). Last names were trickier. Many converted Hindus, especially from the lower castes, simply didn`t have any last names to begin with and others just dropped them. Those, of higher castes, especially military ones, who could demand better treatment from their new Muslim ``brothers,`` were mapped into the Muslim castes of Shaikh, Sayyed, Mughal, Pathan, based on their corresponding previous status as Hindus. This happened quite often in what became known as UP (Oudh, Agra, Rohilkhand, and Doab - the area between Gunga and Jamuna rivers). Being the hearland of the Delhi Sultanate and then the Mughal Empire, the area around the capital was settled by many immigrants from the Muslim west. Thus you have Siddiqui, Farooqui, among Shaikhs; Syyed, Hashmi among Syyeds, and Khan, Ghaznavi, and Ghori among Pathans, and then Mirza, Baig, Timuri for Mughal descendants.

The key thing to remember is that hardly any Muslim family can claim to be pure this or pure that. There was almost universal intermarriage among Muslims and with the Hindus. Before that there was the usual rape and slaughter that accompanied most military victories. The Mongols loved large-eyed Persian women and thus left a lasting slanted vision in Iran that is obvious even today. Shias, who normally do not proselytize, have numerous Indian-looking adherents in the sub-continent.

Last names among the Muslims of India and Pakistan tend to be none (Shakeel Ahmed, Mohammed Aziz), Turkic (Khilji, Seljuk, Bey, Bukhari, Baig), Mughal (Mirza, Timuri), Afghan (Khan, Yusufzai, Ghaznavi, Ghori), or Persian (Isphahani, Tabrezi, Hamdani, Sistani), Arabic (Quraishi, Siddiqui, Faruqui) or Hindu (Gill, Bhatti, Butt, Choudhury, Patel, and yes Chauhan).

Ajeya #176 {``I hope Indians learn from the thinking behind Europe`s reluctance to include Turkey in the EU. :}

Ajeya,
Abey meN ne tere baap ka kya bigaRa he? :)

Farzana,
As usual - good article on a depressing topic. Exposing pimples on the cadavre of Miss Universe is never easy nor prone to gratitude from the masses. But someone has to do it and you are good at it. :)

re:#176 by Ajeya
I hope u will change your mind. Even though we do not do much in Chowk in terms of changing ground realities, we can forcefully say what is in our minds without fear and hope it won`t be censored. Chowk has off late become censor-happy but it still is a good place.
I too like u have a lot of problems with our neighbouring country and the dirction it has taken. As someone pointed out, Pak is mending its ways though it has an infalted sense of importance in the world. The world will win this war against terrorism. Like all wars, this too will be painful but it will be won. If u are serious about quitting, good luck. Otherwise, u are always welcome back when u like. I tried to quit some months ago but felt it was out of anger, so came back.
Sridhar

Re: # 179

islam is the fastest growing religion in the world .........

........ first it was neil armstrong, then mike tyson, then michael jackson and now dost-mittar!

......... takbeer !

Dear Ajeya

I understand your anguish but I don`t agree with your analysis. People like Farzana, DM just look at one aspect of story and try to genralise. But that is their choice or they rationalise their generalisation based on one partial fact.

People, including you and me sometimes forget that `All generalisations are false including this one.`

You must understand that Muslims are as much victim of Islam as non muslims are. What choice these Muslims have under a curse of Islam.

when did Dost-mittar,a Hindu, the Punjabi Khatri boy and a proud Indian convert to Islam?
that confirms Ajeya`s depth of analysis on the subject.

Re:Ajeya#176

Please dont leave this forum. Also there is no need to feel so hopeless about the muslim situation. Believe me, not only India but the entire world is changing rapidly in its perception and attitudes towards muslims.

People have realized that muslims cannot be allowed to continue in their regular behavior of committing aggression and ethnically cleansing non-muslims, partitioning countries, supporting insane behavior in the name of jihad while all the time wallowing in autocratic societies with despotic regimes. In other words, muslims civilization across the board is a threat to modern civilization and progress.

The only way to change this is to fight back hard. No apologies, no political correctness, but direct, aggressive action. Force is the answer, not in terms of commiting genocide, but using a display of force or the threat of force to change muslim behavior. Just look at Pakistan. 5 years back, Pakistan was worshipping the Taliban and Jihad. Today, the same Pakistan is shaking hands with Israel and appointing a hindu as chief justice. It has only happened due to the threat of extreme force from the USA.

Similarly look at Afghanistan. The same people who were supporting the Taliban are now building a democracy, under fear of US force. The Kashmiri muslims have capitulated in the face of extreme Indian force to give up militancy and Kashmir will always remain with India. The Palestinians have capitulated to extreme force from the Israelis and are now negotiating a peace instead of detonating suicide bombs. Soon Iraqis will be under control as well. The Arab countries are finally starting to have elections, including allowing women to vote and run for office. So do not despair. Also most Indians support this aggressive tactic. I am sure you have seen that young Indians do not have any kind of apologist mindset as displayed by old timers like dost-mittar.

ajeya...
you must be a certified idiot to take such a long time to find the truth about muslims...atleast you have found nirvana...now you will be worshipped in a small temple in south india with khushboo and maulana dost-mittar will be your mujavar...khas kumm jahan paak...good bye...

This is my last post on Chowk. In fact , I am violating my promise to my wife by posting this message.

My experiences on this forum has confirmed everything I knew about Islam and Muslims all along. There is no hope. Nothing will change. Even a ``patriotic`` IM like Dost-Mitter feels that Kashmir should be a indepenedent solely because there is a Muslim majority and according to the wishes of the Muslim majority regardless of what Hindus want. I don`t think Muslims in general will ever change. The struggle to have IMs conform to the egalitarian norms of civilized society will continue in India, and this struggle might be just as eternal as the struggle between good and evil.

Muslims (like Dost-Mitter) like to maintain that their influence in India is insignificant. I cite the following article to refute that:
[
Bangladeshi bomber has Indian voter ID

Pramod Kumar Singh / New Delhi


HOUSE IN WEST BENGAL VILLAGE AND IS CPM ACTIVIST

---

A Bangladeshi accused of engineering the 400 serial explosions that rocked Dhaka and other towns across Bangladesh on August 17 has an Indian voter ID card, a house in West Bengal where his name is included in the electoral roll and is an activist of the Communist Party of India (Marxist). His family lives in Sonaberia town in Chittagong district of Bangladesh, a hotbed of jihadi activity.

Gayasuddin, one of the blast accused who was arrested by the police from Kadamtala in Satkhira region of Bangladesh on August 29, used to frequently cross the border into West Bengal where he has a house in Nityanand Khunti village of North 24 Parganas district.

According to intelligence operatives, he was last seen in Nityanand Khunti on August 26 but slipped out after villagers informed security agencies that he had come to seek refuge. The sources said that whenever Gayasuddin visited the village, he used to spend his nights at the village mosque.

After dropping out of Sonaberia High School, Gayasuddin studied theology in a madarsa in the same town where he later became a qari. His wife and children continue to live in Sonaberia.

Believed to be an active supporter of the CPI(M), he used his West Bengal contacts to get a ration card despite his Bangladeshi nationality. His brothers Alauddin, Naseeruddin and Abu Hussain, who live in Nityanand Khnuti village, are also believed to be activists of the CPI(M).

Gayasuddin was deeply involved with facilitating illegal immigration by Bangladeshis into West Bengal through Malda, Siliguri, Murshidabad and Dinajpur. West Bengal shares a 2,216 km-long porous border with Bangladesh.

Intelligence sources said that whenever Border Security Force (BSF) personnel enter a village along the border to identify illegal immigrants, aliens like Gayasuddin use loudspeakers installed in local mosques to raise an alarm by shouting ``daakaat, daakaat`` (dacoits, dacoits). With hordes of armed villagers streaming out of their homes, the BSF men are forced to beat a hasty retreat.

The unending influx of Bangladeshis into West Bengal has led to an alarming increase in criminal and subversive activities. Statistics show that there has been a 20 per cent increase in crimes ranging from rape to dacoity.

Illegal immigration from Bangladesh resulting in lakhs of aliens settling down in West Bengal, getting hold of ration cards and including their names in the electoral roll has had a political fallout. Analysis done by intelligence agencies shows that Bangladeshi immigrants can swing results in 52 Assembly constituencies and have a sizeable influence in 100 others in West Bengal.
]


And of course, their ability to swing votes in the rest of the country is well-known. As exhibited by all the corrupt politicians jumping on to the ``secular`` bandwagon.


Predictably, the bombings in Bangladesh were attributed to RAW agents in several Bangladeshi and Pakistani newspapers.

I hope India survives. I hope Indians learn from the thinking behind Europe`s reluctance to include Turkey in the EU.

But it might already be too late.

#173

Good one. koi na koi asar te ho riya:-)

sunne sunne raahwaN wich koi koi paiRh ay
dil hi udaas ay ji baaki sabh khair ay.

mithi jihi siyal di oh dhundli sawer si
sooraj de charhne ch haale baRhi dair si
pita pardes jadoN giya pehli ver si
maaN di akhaN wich hanjoo te haner si
ajjay teek nainaN wich maaRhi maaRhi gehar ay.

dil hi udaas........