Songs of Dissonance

I think what Junaid expressed in his views was reflecting what`s stated in the Quran and supported by numerous hadeeths and not some superstitions as suggested by you. I`m impressed with your research about numerous natural disasters in the world but if you recall, muslims believe in Allah`s sovereignty and His control over the universe and therefore believe that whatever happens in the Universe happens for a reason, which is almost always supported by the Quran and hadeeths. I don`t promote believing everything you hear about Islam but I do believe in conducting your own research and educating yourself as much in Islam as we do in other mediums such as science. Thanks.

off topic inquiries can be directed to Asadi@asadi.org

masadi u dont have to answer this, but just out of curiosity I would like to know how old you are.

#110 Einstein knew much more about the universe than to conclude that God is ``natural law``. As a physicist and cosmologist, he knew that at the beginning point of creation, before planck time,(which is 10 to the power of negative 43 seconds) there were no ``natural laws``, the kind that we study today- those ``natural laws`` are not the creator, they were themselves ``created`` as they had an ``origin``. Here is another quotation from Einstein :``I`m not much with people, and I`m not a family man. I want my peace. I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomena in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts the rest are details.`` (Clarck, The Life and Times of Einstein. New York: The World Publishing Co., 1971. ,18,19)

His statement, ``I want to know how God created this world.`` clearly narrates to us that he seperated the world (natural laws etc) from God.

Regarding your question, why God, (according to you) ``tortures little babies with cancer, aids and earth quakes before killing them or worse maiming them for life?`` - when you ask questions it is always a very bad idea to assume what the answer is going to be and then put words in the mouth of the person you are asking a question from- bad, bad idea. That said, what evidence do you have that God does those things? Looking at cancer rates, scientifically we find, like in the case of Iraq (and Vietnam), that cancer rates went up 700% due to depleted uranium used by the US in the first gulf war (as it did due to agent orange and other defoliants used by the US in Vietnam). What about earthquakes, let`s see Pakistan spends billions on arms and armament, making US corporations rich while it wont invest a small percent of that constructing decent housing for the poor- and as we know buildings and not earthquakes kill people. AIDS, how does it spread and why are poor communities more vulnerable than rich ones and why is this cycle not broken in Africa by providing low cost medicines to those who suffer from its effects?

Now, God has entrusted this earth for a limited time to humanity, humankind, the elite among them, breaches that trust, ruins and harms the earth and fellow humans as a result and then BLAMES it on God- NOT FAIR!! After that brief period of entrustment is over, and judgment comes, after that, if babies are still dying of cancer, and people are still getting killed by earthquakes then you can blame God, but not before.

#108, I have only come across Iqbal`s work on Islam, through excerpts in other books, I have to study it in the original before I can form any opinion on it.

#112 all the nice thoughts in that song and hopes have been shattered for all developing countries of the world thanks to the inhumane neo-colonial system dominated by the US elite. We need to work together to reclaim all that from those who are destroying humanity and the earth for short term profits.

Hindvi

That`s an amazing song. It has a very special appeal - it was one of our school prayers.

We would sing it in a chorus, all three or four hundred of us. One would have to have been there in our midst to truly feel the magnificence of the song`s words and the impact of those words on our minds.

Thanks for taking me back many years, to a beautiful time... :)

Kaalchakra listen to this outstanding song by Iqbal, its available on the net, it sounds best when young children sing it, since it was meant as prayer for them:

lab pey aati hai dua banke tamanna meri
zindagi shamma ki surat ho Khudaya meri

ho mere dam se yuuN hi mere watan ki zeenat
jis tarah phool se hoti hai chaman ki zeenat

zindagi ho meri parwaane ki surat ya rab
ilm ki shamma se ho mujhko mohabbat ya rab

ho meraa kaam Garibon ki himayat karna
dardmandon se zaifon se mohobbat karna

mere allah burai se bachaana mujhko
nek jo raah ho us raah pe chalana mujhko

lab pey aati hai dua banke tamanna meri
zindagi shamma ki surat ho Khudaya meri

sayeen

Further to Hindvi`s post, it would be useful to see what practical, real-life methodology Iqbal was suggesting for the reconstruction of religious thought in Islam.

Einstien Sayin

Do you what Einstein meant by God? forget allama, have u read Spinoza? Einstein claimed to be Spinozan in his thoughts, i.e. he called the physical laws(equations) of this universe ``God``, not a personal Judeo-christian anthropomorphic all powerful, determiner of individual destinies - responsive to prayers and appreciative of sycophancy vigilantee. Because of this most religous christians who knew his beliefs severely castigated him.

Masadi since u have taken up the brief for Allah Mian:

tell me why does this god of yours torture little babies with cancer, aids and earth quakes before killing them or worse maiming them for life? he sems a million degrees worse to me than the guards at Guant.

And please respect this forum and give an answer other than ``he is really torturing their parents, and the children dont feel any pain``, or the standard he has reserved a nice place for them in the next world, where he will make up with the babies and their parents for the pain in this world.

Re: # 108

Masadi sahib:
A a reposne to the ``insult to intelligence`` woven by #107, couldnt have materlized better.

Kistiakowsky`s quote: The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine [sic] ``indeed`` re-instates Dr. Einstein`s ( representing perhaps the pinnacle of scientific human intellect to-date) quest to rationalize scientific discovery with religion/God in his later years.

On a second note, and perhaps in response to the ``non-ijtahadis`` ( not to confuse with `jahadis`: for the indians) and the self-praclaimed ``agnostics`` of the forum, what would you say about Dr. Iqbal`s ``The Reconstruction of Religious thought in Islam``. (assuming you`d have read it)

It surprises me, how little commentary there exists on this text, and how eludes a common Pakistani` the very Islamic outlook of the man who envisioned the land.

#107, compare the literary nonsense reflected in the verse you have reproduced, to this quote by an MIT physicist:

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): ``The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine.`` or this one by the well know astrophysicist Fred Hoyle:

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): ``A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.``

complete article at http://god.rationalreality.com

Khuda jitna shikast hota hai, uska parcham utnaa hi buland hota jaataa hai

Re: # 101 to 104 Thanks.
Fortunately my daughters did well and have their families.

104 Your observations are right.
Most of time men are more attached to their mothers and daughters to fathers is my experience. It may be getting reinforced in childhood as when their mother can not agree they approach father and many times met their unreasonable demands. Also mothers put too much attention in details while father does not and they begin to feel father as reasonable.Withtime relationship changes for better. Most daughters tell things to father what is going in their life and ask for opinion. Daughter feel fathers are not very judgemental and can keep calm and keep things with them.You do not want to spend time with your sons home as director of that house is woman not related to you and there is tension in air how much son gives attention can create problem. I will not feel bad to be taken care by daughter as she is related to me and her nurturing is same as your mother so there no shame to take help. She is mother to you and its as natural as your mother caring for you, its natural. That may be the reason. With my daughter I will insider with daughter in law I am outsider.

Re: # 101,102,103,104 Thanks. Fortunately my daughters did well got married and settled.
Yes daughters take care of parents and specially father. The realtionship changes with time if their husbands are reasonable. They always talk little to their mother but they get close and talk with father. May be I listen to all patienly and attentively. I have observed I was attached to my mother and not father not at all. There is something daughters like father than mother as time goes as some times they can still complain to me as was when they were in teens and some times things they dare not ask mother. I recall many times my daughters tell me not mention to their mother and tell me things. I think we have more attachment to them and they know father is still adores them as when they were babies ( may be mothers are more practical) and they have more confidence in father than mother.
104 has put something I can not explain but suggest there is all through life a romantic attachment of father and daughter ( as father and daughter) and when you become old she becomes like mother helping you again living as your second childhood and your mother as good women have nurtureing nature.

``girls have proven to take far better care of their parents. `` Though I dont have kids, having seen cases around me that has been my experience too, I wonder why though.

madani

girls have proven to take far better care of their parents. so its ok to water the garden. the problem is there if they get married into a joint-family situation, with little decision freedoms. so make sure that they dont marry a person who lives and or is dependent on his family.

Ahmed Madani,

1. First, do not worry about your english skills. You are allright.

2. Atleast, it appears, that you are much more educated (not just literate) than
the average anglicized uneducated pakistanis we see on chowk (tahmed, godot, ylh etc).

3. Stop trying to please people (except maybe your immediate family
- wife, kids, parents etc). You dont have to apologize to chowk-interactors at all
unless you made some personal accusation that was wrong.

4. Do not post private/family information on the web.
Considering the pathetic country you unfortunately live in and that you have kids
to be married, one can understand your concern for their safety and your trying
to protect them. You have more of an interest in your daughters well being than
the morons who are living in relatively free and safe environments.