H P January 25, 2006
#204 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on February 4, 2006 9:52:55 am
#203, Ramanujan {``Turkey, for example, is not a true democracy)... The editor, of course, takes the cake - left wing radical Islamic nutcase with a zero talent in English writing skills.``}
Dear Ramanujan aka Ajeya,
Long time no talk. I arduously support your right to exist as Ajeya and be heard regardless of your views, how you express them, and how you come across. With me it`s a cartoon/limerick thingy. :)
So, please reconsider. Come back as Ajeya and do entertain us with your wild theories and twisted historical facts. I enjoy educating you and who knows one day Ajeya may become Ajmal. :) Peacefully, of course.
I do, however, take exception to two of your more vicious statements:
1. {``Turkey, for example, is not a true democracy).``}
Turkey is definitely a secular democracy. It is really much more secular than India when it comes to implementing secularism. It does not, however, have the consistent commitment to democracy that India does. I hope you see the difference. Hopefully, one day India will truly become secular like Turkey and Turkey will become consistently democratic like India. Inshallah.
2. The editor, of course, takes the cake - left wing radical Islamic nutcase with a zero talent in English writing skills. ``}
You can offer all the cakes you like to our esteemed editor. She is neither left wing nor Islamic extremist. She is talented more than anyone on Chowk and her English writing skills are an example for all of us. Please don`t let your personal anger over being filtered cloud your rational judgement about a person`s competence, wit, humor, and literacy. But, mor important of all, hang around. You are a passionate interactor and your departure will not be welcome. <.b>
Dear Ramanujan aka Ajeya,
Long time no talk. I arduously support your right to exist as Ajeya and be heard regardless of your views, how you express them, and how you come across. With me it`s a cartoon/limerick thingy. :)
So, please reconsider. Come back as Ajeya and do entertain us with your wild theories and twisted historical facts. I enjoy educating you and who knows one day Ajeya may become Ajmal. :) Peacefully, of course.
I do, however, take exception to two of your more vicious statements:
1. {``Turkey, for example, is not a true democracy).``}
Turkey is definitely a secular democracy. It is really much more secular than India when it comes to implementing secularism. It does not, however, have the consistent commitment to democracy that India does. I hope you see the difference. Hopefully, one day India will truly become secular like Turkey and Turkey will become consistently democratic like India. Inshallah.
2. The editor, of course, takes the cake - left wing radical Islamic nutcase with a zero talent in English writing skills. ``}
You can offer all the cakes you like to our esteemed editor. She is neither left wing nor Islamic extremist. She is talented more than anyone on Chowk and her English writing skills are an example for all of us. Please don`t let your personal anger over being filtered cloud your rational judgement about a person`s competence, wit, humor, and literacy. But, mor important of all, hang around. You are a passionate interactor and your departure will not be welcome. <.b>
#203 Posted by Ramanujan on February 4, 2006 7:46:41 am
This is Ajeya.
As most of you have probably noticed, ALL my posts are being filtered.
There cannot be ANY basis for filtering ALL my posts, since irrelevent and offensive posts are abundant on this website - starting with Behram. The other point, of course, is that ALL my posts are in RESPONSE to other posts.
This is a good illustration of why democracy will NEVER come to ANY Islamic country (Turkey, for example, is not a true democracy).
This is a low-class site with pseudo-intellectuals like Mantolives spouting endless garbage about topics like an ISlamic, Secular, and Modern Pakistan. Talk about contradictions!
The editor, of course, takes the cake - left wing radical Islamic nutcase with a zero talent in English writing skills.
Anyway, carry on your endless garbage.
And Arjun, carry on the good work!
Goodbye
#202 Posted by HP on February 1, 2006 10:05:24 am
#164 by Zakkk
I A Rehman’s article
“During the East Bengal crisis, he was in that magnificent minority that stood up against the madness of the military operation against their fellow Pakistani citizens.”
In my article above I talked about some NAP workers who stood up against the army in 1971. I am so glad that finally some people are coming forward to acknowledge those unnamed heroes of Pakistan’s struggle for democracy. I met several of them in Karachi, Hyderabad, Peshawar, Nawabshah, Charsadda, Quetta and Kohlu.
Here are a few that I have known. I will not use last names in some cases though.
Shahid: He was 17 years old when he was arrested in Karachi for distributing leaflets against the army in 1971. He was tortured and beaten up in Malir Cantonment and finally left at the Borstal jail in Karachi. After he was released, he spent several years in an asylum. He works for a major newspaper in Pakistan now and also writes for a UK paper.
Hidayat: He too was 19 when arrested from Karachi in 1971. He went thru severe beatings including time on Ice slabs during the interrogation. He too suffered mentally and was in treatment in London and Paris for several years. He is now a professor in a college in Karachi and still is not fully recovered.
Jam Saqi: A famous student leader in Hyderabad in the late sixties. He organized the campaign against the army in Sindh. He defied the police until 1978. His warrants were not cancelled even during the Bhutto regime. He was named in the Hyderabad Conspiracy along with Wali Khan and Mir Bizenjo. Got arrested in 1978 during the Zia regime, his was a famous trial in which almost all liberal leaders in Pakistan came forward to speak for him in a military tribunal. Benazir, Begum Nusrat Bhutto, Wali Khan and Bizenjo appeared for him in the trial. When Benazir became the PM for the second time, he was appointed in the Sindh Ministry.
Waseem: Was arrested from Hyderabad in 1971. He was a High way contractor and a great character. Originally from Gorakhpur,India. A good Chess player. His son was my friend. I played chess with Waseem Sahib and heard stories about the left movement in India and Pakistan. His son now owns perhaps the largest privately owned construction company in Sindh.
Mehar: He too was a student leader in Sindh in the 60s. Later he worked for NAP and was a player in meetings where Bizenjo-Bhutto accord of 1972 mentioned by I. A. Rehman, was discussed. He now owns businesses in Connecticut and Ohio. Spends half of his time in Pakistan schmoozing with the PPP top brass.
Mukhtar: Was a student leader from Mardan and Peshawar. A great person and a smooth talker. Last I heard he was in Muzdor Kissan party. I have no idea what he is doing now.
Afrasiab Khattak: A student leader in Peshawar University in the early 70s. Presently Gen. Sec. of ANP. Was also the Chairman of Human rights commission in Pakistan before Asma Jahangir.
Dr. Abdul Hai Baloch: A student leader and later National assembly member in the 70s. He is the president of a Baloch Party now and often is in the news.
Dr. Azaz Nazir: A labor leader from Karachi. Don’t know anything about him now.
Khamosh Gul Khattak: A labor leader. He is, I think, ANP president of Sindh or Karachi.
Imam Ali: This guy was a legend and only a few people knew him well. He had several arrest warrants but never got arrested. He died of TB in Ojha Sanatorium, Karachi. Nawaz Sharif wanted to pay for his medical expenses when he was PM. Imam declined and died in the Sanatorium in Karachi. He was from Amroha, UP, India.
Thanks everyone for your contribution on this board.
I A Rehman’s article
“During the East Bengal crisis, he was in that magnificent minority that stood up against the madness of the military operation against their fellow Pakistani citizens.”
In my article above I talked about some NAP workers who stood up against the army in 1971. I am so glad that finally some people are coming forward to acknowledge those unnamed heroes of Pakistan’s struggle for democracy. I met several of them in Karachi, Hyderabad, Peshawar, Nawabshah, Charsadda, Quetta and Kohlu.
Here are a few that I have known. I will not use last names in some cases though.
Shahid: He was 17 years old when he was arrested in Karachi for distributing leaflets against the army in 1971. He was tortured and beaten up in Malir Cantonment and finally left at the Borstal jail in Karachi. After he was released, he spent several years in an asylum. He works for a major newspaper in Pakistan now and also writes for a UK paper.
Hidayat: He too was 19 when arrested from Karachi in 1971. He went thru severe beatings including time on Ice slabs during the interrogation. He too suffered mentally and was in treatment in London and Paris for several years. He is now a professor in a college in Karachi and still is not fully recovered.
Jam Saqi: A famous student leader in Hyderabad in the late sixties. He organized the campaign against the army in Sindh. He defied the police until 1978. His warrants were not cancelled even during the Bhutto regime. He was named in the Hyderabad Conspiracy along with Wali Khan and Mir Bizenjo. Got arrested in 1978 during the Zia regime, his was a famous trial in which almost all liberal leaders in Pakistan came forward to speak for him in a military tribunal. Benazir, Begum Nusrat Bhutto, Wali Khan and Bizenjo appeared for him in the trial. When Benazir became the PM for the second time, he was appointed in the Sindh Ministry.
Waseem: Was arrested from Hyderabad in 1971. He was a High way contractor and a great character. Originally from Gorakhpur,India. A good Chess player. His son was my friend. I played chess with Waseem Sahib and heard stories about the left movement in India and Pakistan. His son now owns perhaps the largest privately owned construction company in Sindh.
Mehar: He too was a student leader in Sindh in the 60s. Later he worked for NAP and was a player in meetings where Bizenjo-Bhutto accord of 1972 mentioned by I. A. Rehman, was discussed. He now owns businesses in Connecticut and Ohio. Spends half of his time in Pakistan schmoozing with the PPP top brass.
Mukhtar: Was a student leader from Mardan and Peshawar. A great person and a smooth talker. Last I heard he was in Muzdor Kissan party. I have no idea what he is doing now.
Afrasiab Khattak: A student leader in Peshawar University in the early 70s. Presently Gen. Sec. of ANP. Was also the Chairman of Human rights commission in Pakistan before Asma Jahangir.
Dr. Abdul Hai Baloch: A student leader and later National assembly member in the 70s. He is the president of a Baloch Party now and often is in the news.
Dr. Azaz Nazir: A labor leader from Karachi. Don’t know anything about him now.
Khamosh Gul Khattak: A labor leader. He is, I think, ANP president of Sindh or Karachi.
Imam Ali: This guy was a legend and only a few people knew him well. He had several arrest warrants but never got arrested. He died of TB in Ojha Sanatorium, Karachi. Nawaz Sharif wanted to pay for his medical expenses when he was PM. Imam declined and died in the Sanatorium in Karachi. He was from Amroha, UP, India.
Thanks everyone for your contribution on this board.
#201 Posted by Zakkk on February 1, 2006 2:32:04 am
has anyone heard of a book which partially or on it`s own deals with the hyderabad tribunal? I remember hearing about one?
#200 Posted by MantoLives on February 1, 2006 2:11:12 am
Dear Kaptain..
I think that is unfair. I find Ghaffar Khan and Wali Khan`s stances as distasteful as anyone but to call them Ghadaar is wrong.. They had their conception and principles... but Ghadars they were not... I dislike their politics... but don`t agree with you either.
As for the Indian delegation which did not reach the Jinnah Park in time... yes ... but guess who else was in Charsadda yesterday... Muslim League and PPP leaders... Military Generals, Government officials etc... all ... he was not a ghaddar but a great figure in Pakistani history...
In my opinion... we are doing to the Bacha Khan and his family the same thing Indians do to Jinnah ... negating all achievements and contributions because of some disagreement..
I think that is unfair. I find Ghaffar Khan and Wali Khan`s stances as distasteful as anyone but to call them Ghadaar is wrong.. They had their conception and principles... but Ghadars they were not... I dislike their politics... but don`t agree with you either.
As for the Indian delegation which did not reach the Jinnah Park in time... yes ... but guess who else was in Charsadda yesterday... Muslim League and PPP leaders... Military Generals, Government officials etc... all ... he was not a ghaddar but a great figure in Pakistani history...
In my opinion... we are doing to the Bacha Khan and his family the same thing Indians do to Jinnah ... negating all achievements and contributions because of some disagreement..
#199 Posted by kaptain on January 31, 2006 11:20:54 pm
another insignificant chapter closes with insignificance..
IRONY - pro india..pro afghan..pro russia pro iran..lived in Pakistan and anti pakistan..
Khan Ghaffar Khan..(popularly) also known as Khan Ghaddaar Khan..was attended by Rajiv Gandhi at his funeral..see the sentimental connection..
Like father like son - indian delegation and afghan delegation attended the funeral of Wali Khan..
Chapters like these..are nurtured..on our land..
``yeh mitti baree zarkhaiz..hai..``
IRONY - pro india..pro afghan..pro russia pro iran..lived in Pakistan and anti pakistan..
Khan Ghaffar Khan..(popularly) also known as Khan Ghaddaar Khan..was attended by Rajiv Gandhi at his funeral..see the sentimental connection..
Like father like son - indian delegation and afghan delegation attended the funeral of Wali Khan..
Chapters like these..are nurtured..on our land..
``yeh mitti baree zarkhaiz..hai..``
#198 Posted by FawadR on January 31, 2006 9:16:49 pm
ahmadzai:
Why was Kasuri family not swayed by govt propaganda? The very night his father was murdered, Ahmad Raza Kasuri drove to Shah Jamal Police Station in Lahore and filed an FIR against Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.
Your second reason is more plausible. Sometimes political families sacrifice their kin for political gains. Is the Sherpao family like that? I just don`t know enough to comment on that.
Having read the Victoria Schofeld`s Bhutto: Trial and Murder, I am quite skeptical that a military govt can conduct a fair trial. This book is a must read for every one.
Why was Kasuri family not swayed by govt propaganda? The very night his father was murdered, Ahmad Raza Kasuri drove to Shah Jamal Police Station in Lahore and filed an FIR against Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.
Your second reason is more plausible. Sometimes political families sacrifice their kin for political gains. Is the Sherpao family like that? I just don`t know enough to comment on that.
Having read the Victoria Schofeld`s Bhutto: Trial and Murder, I am quite skeptical that a military govt can conduct a fair trial. This book is a must read for every one.
#197 Posted by Ahmadzai on January 31, 2006 6:49:16 pm
Fawad:
There could be two reasons for Aftab joining the PPP:
1. Sherpao family was itself swayed by the Government propaganda.
2. Sherpao family itself wanted to get rid of Hayat due to his involvement with a woman of ``lower background``.
IF the case was heard in Supreme Court under Zia`s rule, the verdict would be different, wouldn`t it?
There could be two reasons for Aftab joining the PPP:
1. Sherpao family was itself swayed by the Government propaganda.
2. Sherpao family itself wanted to get rid of Hayat due to his involvement with a woman of ``lower background``.
IF the case was heard in Supreme Court under Zia`s rule, the verdict would be different, wouldn`t it?
#196 Posted by FawadR on January 31, 2006 2:31:09 pm
re: ahmadzai
I have read about the conspiracy theory i.e. Benazir`s unrequited crush for Hayat Sherpao. Sherbaz Khan Mazari mentioned it in his book A Journey into Disillusionment.
But it is inconceivable that Bhutto would get a PPP stalwart killed for this reason. ZAB frequently made politics personal, but rarely made personal matters political. The Benazir affair was too trivial in the larger scheme of things for Bhutto.
And besides the Supreme Court (see my post #190) would certainly have thrown the case out if evidence of NAP involvement was flimsy. Why would Aftab Sherpao join PPP if his elder brother was killed by ZAB?
I have read about the conspiracy theory i.e. Benazir`s unrequited crush for Hayat Sherpao. Sherbaz Khan Mazari mentioned it in his book A Journey into Disillusionment.
But it is inconceivable that Bhutto would get a PPP stalwart killed for this reason. ZAB frequently made politics personal, but rarely made personal matters political. The Benazir affair was too trivial in the larger scheme of things for Bhutto.
And besides the Supreme Court (see my post #190) would certainly have thrown the case out if evidence of NAP involvement was flimsy. Why would Aftab Sherpao join PPP if his elder brother was killed by ZAB?
#195 Posted by Zakkk on January 31, 2006 2:30:23 pm
ahmadzai lala: My late uncle one told me the exact same story..he told me it was said to him by a former chief of police who had served in larkana?
I have however heard of one comment by a former NAP activist saying someone in the NAP was involved..
Mind you Rafi raza mentioned sherpaos disillsuionment with the PPP in his book so the possibility of the FSF`s involvement is very possible..considering the tactics of paks ruling establishment and ZAB included it is possible.
I have however heard of one comment by a former NAP activist saying someone in the NAP was involved..
Mind you Rafi raza mentioned sherpaos disillsuionment with the PPP in his book so the possibility of the FSF`s involvement is very possible..considering the tactics of paks ruling establishment and ZAB included it is possible.
#194 Posted by FawadR on January 31, 2006 2:05:41 pm
re: HP
Hayat Mohammad Sherpao was visiting Peshawar University on Feb 8, 1975 when a bomb explosion killed him. Two days later (on Feb 10), the PPP government banned NAP and arrested Wali Khan, Nawab Sikandar Bakhsh Marri and Arbab Sikander Khalil among others.
On June 16, 1975, the Supreme Court headed by Justice Hamoodur Rehman began hearing the Govt of Pakistan versus NAP case. The GOP was represented by Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar. NAP was represented by Barrister Mahmood Ali Kasuri. Supreme Court heard the case for 5 months and then delivered a verdict in favor of GOP on Oct 30, 1975. Thus, NAP stood banned but none of its leaders were convicted of murder.
Perhaps Wali Khan was not directly involved, but its is inconcievable that NAP would be involved in a conspiracy without his tacit approval.
Hayat Mohammad Sherpao was visiting Peshawar University on Feb 8, 1975 when a bomb explosion killed him. Two days later (on Feb 10), the PPP government banned NAP and arrested Wali Khan, Nawab Sikandar Bakhsh Marri and Arbab Sikander Khalil among others.
On June 16, 1975, the Supreme Court headed by Justice Hamoodur Rehman began hearing the Govt of Pakistan versus NAP case. The GOP was represented by Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar. NAP was represented by Barrister Mahmood Ali Kasuri. Supreme Court heard the case for 5 months and then delivered a verdict in favor of GOP on Oct 30, 1975. Thus, NAP stood banned but none of its leaders were convicted of murder.
Perhaps Wali Khan was not directly involved, but its is inconcievable that NAP would be involved in a conspiracy without his tacit approval.
#193 Posted by Ahmadzai on January 31, 2006 1:31:37 pm
Manto at # 188:
This is the best ever analysis of the situation of those times, innovative, logical and coming from a pro-PPP person ;-)
Hats off to you.
This is the best ever analysis of the situation of those times, innovative, logical and coming from a pro-PPP person ;-)
Hats off to you.
#192 Posted by Ahmadzai on January 31, 2006 1:29:13 pm
Tahmed at # 181:
Glad to hear about your experience with Mr. Jami. I heard about him from my parents. I think he is not alive anymore, but I will ask my mother, who lives in Mardan, who knows the family and convey the message either way.
Glad to hear about your experience with Mr. Jami. I heard about him from my parents. I think he is not alive anymore, but I will ask my mother, who lives in Mardan, who knows the family and convey the message either way.
#191 Posted by Ahmadzai on January 31, 2006 1:25:06 pm
Fawad, HP:
Sherpao was killed by PPP itself. The conspiracy theory suggests that he had declined Benazir`s childish moves on himself, because he was already married to an air-hostess against the will of his own family. BB complained to her father of Hayat`s refusal to marry her. Getting rid of him was a win-win situation for Bhutto family and Sherpao family that would be led by Aftab Sherpao after his death.
Closer to reality, Hayat was a popular leader and a man of principles. If he were the leader of PPP, he would not act as a Yes Man to ZAB. ZAB would like NWFP`s leadership in slightly milder hands. It was a win-win situation for PPP. ZAB got independent Hayat killed, put the blame on NAP, took the province, made milder Aftab the leader, who would act as a Yes Man to him and his next generation for decades to come.
Sherpao was killed by PPP itself. The conspiracy theory suggests that he had declined Benazir`s childish moves on himself, because he was already married to an air-hostess against the will of his own family. BB complained to her father of Hayat`s refusal to marry her. Getting rid of him was a win-win situation for Bhutto family and Sherpao family that would be led by Aftab Sherpao after his death.
Closer to reality, Hayat was a popular leader and a man of principles. If he were the leader of PPP, he would not act as a Yes Man to ZAB. ZAB would like NWFP`s leadership in slightly milder hands. It was a win-win situation for PPP. ZAB got independent Hayat killed, put the blame on NAP, took the province, made milder Aftab the leader, who would act as a Yes Man to him and his next generation for decades to come.
#190 Posted by HP on January 31, 2006 9:56:32 am
FawadR
187, 189
“There a lot of questions that need to be answered:
a) How can a sitting Chief Minister be assassinated in broad daylight without a conspiracy?
b) Which party or individuals would have the funds to finance such a conspiracy?
c) Which individuals would have a strong motive or at least a mens rea (intent) to kill Hayat Sherpao?”
“What are your comments on the Hayat Sherpao case? Is there any report that explains this episode in depth?”
There might be a conspiracy to murder Sherpao, but it was never proven that NAP was involved in it. There is no history of Surkhposh killing political opponents. I don’t know all the details but like the arms cache discovered at the Iraqi embassy, the stories about Baloch hording arms and preparing 60000 people strong army in 1973 before the army action in Balochistan, Sherpao affair seems to have come from the same group of vested interests to arrest Wali Khan, Asfand yar and many others ( Ajmal Khattak, Afrasiab Khattak and Ghaffar Khan had to leave for Afghanistan) for opposing the army action by the army and Bhutto in Balochistan.
I don’t think Wali Khan or his party had anything to do with that.
#189 Posted by FawadR on January 31, 2006 9:42:50 am
ahmadzai...manto...
What are your comments on the Hayat Sherpao case? Is there any report that explains this episode in depth?
What are your comments on the Hayat Sherpao case? Is there any report that explains this episode in depth?
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