When Jihad Becomes Terrorism.

Farzana:
Good but abortive attempt. You did not draw a line which would have shown when `` the most benign interpretations of Jihad ... the one that equates the concept to a struggle against one’s evil inclinations`` changes into illegal murdering of hapless individuals who have very little to do with the imagined exploiters of Islam.

Quite expectedly, of course, your commenters did not help you either with exception of nasah. This is largely because either they do not subscribe to your view intending to disparage illegal mudering or because they themselves believe in what you want condemned. Half of your commenters tried to tell you that you do not know what you are talking about so you better shut up and let them carry out the support of the murderers.

Indeed there is a line. To see the line you have to agree that all oil is sold by the legal rulers of West Asian Islamic countries. Whose fault is it that Saudi Arabia and the UAE are selling to West? It is certainly not of West. If the radicals against West want the oil transactions to stop then they should carry out rebellion within their own countries. Instead of planning and carrying out 9-11s all over the world.

So the high jihad is really a facade of the crooks in the Islamic countries themselves and it is converted into terrorism when the internal problems are not addressed by the Islamic countries. It is terrorism when the Muslim armed forces are hiding behind the Burkas and killing children in the dark. It is true that the West benefits from the exploitation in Islamic countries of the general population by their own rulers. These rulers seek protection from the populations of thir own country with the help of Western Military Might. Is it any surprise then that they have to supply the commodity needed by the Western Countries? Why is there no movement of democracy within the Islamic countries? Why don`t the Islamic countries stop selling the oil instead of creating racket around the world? Why do the Muslims demand equal treatment in West when they themselves do not treat non-Muslims fairly in their own countries?? Why do they go to West???

IT IS UNIVERSALLY KNOWN THAT MUSLIMS HAVE ROBBED AND LAID WASTE NUMEROUS COUNTRIES. IF ISLAMIC PEOPLE WERE JUST AND FAIR THEN THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TRIED TO CONVERT PEOPLE WHO DID NOT THREATEN THEM IN SAUDI ARABIA. NO, THEY ROBBED AND KILLED PEOPLE IN FAR OFF LANDS FOR THE GAIN OF MATERIAL BENEFITS. For any one who has the eyes open the evidence and declaration to that effect are in open for centuries.

Zeemax

You could not have been more accurate about social scripts being rehashed throughout history. Our various conversations, confusions, and conflicts today are exactly the same that men and women have faced before.

It`s a pleasure to learn from a person who makes actual history his teacher.

And about time Christainity was protected from George W. Bush. Amen, Aameen etc.

``Jihad`, Terrorism etc are non-issues. The real issues that divide this world are deeper. If it weren`t Islam it would be something else. The world unfortunately is engaged in a catastrophic struggle for resources and oil. It is sadly a failure of imagination and humanity.

#14 by kaalchakra

Kaal. Thanks for your attempt. However, I subscribe to neither of the 5 alternative paths to identify Islam. In my view, Islam can only be understood in the light of Muhammad`s own decisions at critical moments in his own lifetime, and those taken by his immediate successors and companions, which led to its becoming the potent force it actually did. Indeed, the rest of history since then follows.

In short, I discount both Quran and Hadith, but hold history supreme in iterpreting what the Quran really means, since Muslims cannot do anything outside of Quranic injunctions.

I`ll take this opportunity to reproduce my post to Masadi on the `Apostasy` board which clarifies my position:

#513 by zeemax on March 31, 2006 #510 by masadi

...Even your hadith (the majority of which were considered spurious even by the collectors themselves who threw out most of them) ...

Masadi, Masadi, you miss my position. My fault. I should have been more clear. Listen! I know Hadith is unreliable. I also know these were in hundreds of thousands to begin with and only about 20% retained, the rest thrown out. I also know the most prolific Hadith author Abu Huraira was treated as something of a buffoon by the rest of the companions, and even given a thrashing by Umar from time to time. I know all that.

My position is that the true meaning of Quran can only be ascertained through history. You have rejected that before by saying the history is 200 years removed from the events. I agree to that extent. But what about the history since those initial 200 years? Indeed, even the history during those two hundred years has not been disputed by any historian of note, whether Muslim/non-Muslim, other than Patricia Crone.

As you know even today, the combatant Jihadis model their lives after the prominent Islamic fighters of 7th Century, and even change their names after theirs like a fighter from Multan would be Abu Zubaida etc. That history is playing itself out right in front of your eyes. Press rewind and you get the same thing through earlier centuries. You tell me where to press `stop`? Which period? The 7th century principles though recorded two hundred years removed but exhibited through out history were always valid for Muslims, and still are.

Rgds

will become * inexplicable *.....

(or may be the fortuitous error wasn`t an error, and an explanation of Islam without Jihad actually exists)

Saurabh

The issue of what constitutes the core of Islam is where things completely fall apart (from what I have understood over many years on Chowk). A number of approaches and remedies have been suggested, such as -

Shunya or no core. Anybody who calls himself/herself Muslim is a Muslim (Hindu Way)
Mysticism and spirituality. Sufi Way
Good behavior toward others. Buddhist Way
Quran Only. Quranist Way (gaining a lot of supporters a la Mr. Masadi)
Quran and Hadiths. Traditional Islam

Zeemax appears to be a promoter of traditional Islam. In his view, should the call for Jihad be excised from Islam, then Islam will become explicable as a system of ideas underlying historical facts and current situations. It will also lose its distinguishing force.

It`s good to keep ourselves open to learning from anybody who moves us from the world of idiosyncratic individualized opinions to one of systematic and consistent exposition of a body of interrelated ideas affecting every single one of us.

Islam=Jehad. New definition.

``Jihad is Islam. You can`t leave Jihad and be a Muslim at the same time. ``

Wow........so you are now going to define what Islam is and what it is not.and then punish those who do not follow your Islam......................what fascistic ideology do you follow in the name of Islam??

#6 by aktaie #8

Okay I get your point. Usama has been incompetent. Ok. So what should be done? That is your point.

Well, not really. Usama invoked Jihad. That was enough. He did bring down the embassies in Africa and did poke a hole in that naval vessel in Yemen. But he did not do 9/11. That was something else. Noone knows who did that, but that is another story.

The Jihad which is invoked, is not only about beheadings, it is about other things as well. It is about `` and waylay them at each opportunity``, and ``slay them wherever ye find them``. That is Jihad.

Jihad to me is to participate in bringing down the entire dollar based monetary system which makes the rest of the world virtual american black slaves, just a shade lighter though.

#7 by nasah #9 (cleaning up that post)

..... nasah, Jihad is Islam. You can`t leave Jihad and be a Muslim at the same time. If it is not your cup of tea, leave Islam. Get out and remain an economic migrant sucking your masters` toes, or other body parts for that matter, as a second class citizen in borrowed land till they kick you out ..... remain happy till then.

#7 by nasah

..... nasah, Jihad is Islam. You can`t leave Jihad and be a Muslim at the same time. If it is not your cup of tea, leave Islam. Get out and remain an economic migrant sucking your masters` toes, or other bodyor other body parts for that matter. parts for that matter, as a second class citizen in borrowed land till they kick you out ..... remain happy till then.

#6 by aktaie

Usama does not have any access to `burgers` .... he lives on dates ..... just like Umar did.

I am beheading `non-believers` in my own way. When the time comes to do it physically, I am ready.

Got it airhead my friend aktaie? In the meantime, pray I ask, what are `you` doing?

Abu zeemax

``It is about time Islam was reclaimed from the tyranny and oppression of madmen who slaughter and kill with impunity.``(FH)

bibi -- for the sake of the Umma pl don`t reclaim Islam -- too much claiming and reclaiming Islam is the root couse of most of our problems -- if you can only let it take some rest in the masjid -- Islam will feel better -- the fever will be gone -- the patient may even recover in good health......just leave Islam alone...

-- and pleeze no more Jihad -- don`t mention that dirty word in civlized ocmpany -- even if Chowk is not -- unless you need to terrorize people....

Re: # 2

Hey Abu Zeemax, I have a question for you. Since Osama is such a bumbling and ineffective ``burger``, shouldn`t *you* be doing something for the ``cause`` rather than just whining about it on Chowk? Unless you`re posting this from a bunker in baghdad with a kidnapped ``spy`` in the next room and your webcam pointed at his face, I say you`re not doing enough. Remember!! every time you make a post on chowk, an infidel you could have beheaded gets away!!!1

Re: # 1 by zeemax,

Just two paragraphs......and how well put.

#3 by ballukhan

I see. So Usama, a multi millionaire, in with the Royal family and the Saudi upper class by birth, just decided to live on dates in a cave the rest of his life, all to settle `personal scores`.

Try again. Be real!