Star, Crescent, Cross

wiseguy

Tareekh means `History` the rest is Hindi. And as Fuzair said, Muslims of East Punjab were like Hindus and Sikhs of West Punjab, unaware and unwilling to leave, They didn`t choose Paksitan either, but were forced to go there by Sikhs and Hindus who were murdering all Muslim ppl. But khair i`ve already explained that to you below, and you still didn`t get it, seems like you are very blinded by your hate. Oh and that civilisation you talk about, i also belong to it and take great pride in it, and just so you know, it all started in the land that is now Pakistan!

Ciao!!!

Re: #22

Not correct. Muslims in Eastern Punjab weren`t given the choice; they had to leave; just like Sikhs/Hindus in Western Punjab: forced exchange of populations. Quite a few people in my family were Congresswallahs, including some who were fairly high up in the local Congress Party (wanted a Muslim face to show they were not communal). My family finally left when a Sikh friend of my Dada`s told him that there had been ``talk`` about the Muslims and maybe they should leave soon.

Re: # 20

Arre Haan ... I almost forgot it ... The muslim theory of everything being equal-equal
especially when they are at the recieving end .....

>The Muslim league may have asked for it, but does that make the Muslim suffering in
>India any less than the Hindu and Sikh one? Many of the people who lived their lives
>normally in India hadn`t heard the name Pakistan till the morning they had to leave
>chased by kirpan weilding Sardars and Hindus!!!

Yes sir, it makes the muslim suffering less. Much less. When the time for election came,
they supported Pakistan & Msulim League (``Muslim hai to muslim league mey aa``)...
In any case they still had the choice of living in a secular india which many of them chose.
As for the non-muslims in pukistan, these guys did NOT chose partition. They did NOT
ask for an islamic country. STILL they were chased & raped & killed. THIS MAKES THEIR SUFFERING MORE.

As for the partition - it was the best thing that happened to us non-muslims. Having even 1 msulim amongst us is like having a cat amongst pigeons. Unfortunately Jinnah was stopped
from completing the task.

APNA GIREBAN DEKHA AUR EKDUM SAAF NIKLA :)

> aur apni tareekh ko samjho...
wats that ? hindi translation please.

regards,
wiseguy (member of 5000 year old civilization. perennial enemy of paedophilic cults)

Ref ally #15 and #20

While echoboom is shedding copious tears over Chechnys, Palestine, Kashmir, etc., I haven`t seen him speak up about the Muslims of Xinjiang who are equally oppressed... including the fact that ``halal pork`` is on sale in Urumchi. Nor has he condemned the vicious rape of Bangladesh by the Pak Army (the justification then was, if I remember correctly, ``they asked for it``0 or the bombings in Balochistan more recently by Pak Air Force.

Nor does he shed one single tear for the 1.5 million (Christian) Armenians butchered by the Turks in early 20th century.

The rule is quite simple: Muslims are allowed to do anything but no one should even touch a hair of a Muslim!

The Muslim league may have asked for it, but does that make the Muslim suffering in India any less than the Hindu and Sikh one? Many of the people who lived their lives normally in India hadn`t heard the name Pakistan till the morning they had to leave chased by kirpan weilding Sardars and Hindus!!!

The politicians may have chose it, but most ppl ended up being in either India or Pak by default, and if they moved it wasn`t thru choice but thru majboori (for the most part in Punjab and Bengal)

So spare me the crap about `you dont care about Hindus and Sikhs` and `you asked for it` pehle apney girehbaan meiN dekho, aur apni tareekh ko samjho...

right = write.....ooopppssss

I have always want to visit Israel.....and I will do it at some point in my life...I have always admired their tenacity and overall contribution to human civilisation in its modern context - music, medicien, sciences, maths, name it and they are there....for a few million their contribution is huge...when compared to theie other semitic cousins.

This right up has only made me want to go there even more....

the reason why the wall is being built

Re: # 15

> The same can be said about the millions of Muslims who lived in Punjab and Bengal ...

And all the while I thought it was the muslim league that has ASKED FOR a partition.

Nice write up, you`ve written as an observer, very informative and gave some glimpses of Isreal that we would not normally get. Look forward to more of your travelogues, only next time dont make them so long and break them up a little. Thanks a mill

#10 Harimau
I don`t hear a word from you about the Hindus and Sikhs who used to live in Punjab, Sindh, NWFP and Baluchistan

The same can be said about the millions of Muslims who lived in Punjab and Bengal and were driven out, as well as the millions from other parts of India, infact more Muslims were driven out and killed than vice versa. Open the one sided narrow mind to understand the other. Many would easily call BJP/VHP/Shiv Sena Isrealis of South Asia. It works both ways!

As for the content of his post, you have to understand that along with Kashmir, Pakistanis have Palestine and lately Chechnya and Bosnia ingrained into them since they are kids, esp the ones who live/born/bought up in the west. This is his reaction, why get your Karma and aura in a twist and cause disharmony within yourself by the contents of his post?

Re: # 5
> do they even wipe their butts after they are done?

No. They got arabs to lick their ass .... LOL.

God BLESS THE JEWS :)

Very engaging write up. Brings back memories. I was there almost 6 years ago when there was some possibility of peace even with Syria. Assad was dragging his feet and then all hell broke loose starting with Sharon`s visit to the al Aqsa which brought down the government and brought him to power. Sort of like the attack on babri masjid that propelled the BJP to power in india.
The jews have built the country with the single-minded purpose of having a secure homeland for themselves where never again will they be persecuted. I found the israelis to be on the whole liberal and willing to criticize themselves and also criticize the new york jews, who much like the nri`s, are busybodies and more zionist than most israelis.
Many of the russian immigrants have only a tenuous connection to judaism, and most are secular, non-observant or atheist. Russian criminal gangs had become very active and there was a lot of tension between them and the black jews. The hatred between the orthodox (who are not conscripted) and the secular jews is open and palpable. As you have observed, Tel Aviv is a world unto itself. Except on saturdays, it looks like it belongs in western europe.
Filipino and thai laborers were aplenty - a shame considering how palestinians in occupied territories are starving. Israel is in a hurry to shut out the palestinians and move on but they find themselves dragged back.
Some day, hopefully, there will be a secular state that is home to both jews and palestinians.

Nice article, Deepak.

I am glad to see some factual and practical articles about israel by indians. Unfortunately, most indians who go there to visit tend to be left-wing types who feel it is important to demonstrate that their first allegiance is to criticizing israel for all kinds of ideological reasons. They would never write such articles about china or saudi arabia.

The focus on human beings and human emotions is also very good.

Deepak,
A very interesting and well-written travelogue. For a moment I thought that I was reading the immortal Veeresh perform yet another arudous journey through the Land of the Pure. Once I started gazing into my own imagination, led by your excellent accoutn of the trips and the scenery, I knew that a different sort of treat was in order. Your behavior in describing Israel and the Occupied Territories is very much that of an impartial camera. It is good to know about the travel procedures, the scrutiny due to security reasons, modes of travel, and thoughts of the average Israelis. I myself hope to make the trip soon and hope that my US passport will be as much of a help as my obviously Muslim first name will be an item of dubious assistance. I like to see for myself and form my own opinions - without the obvious prejudice from CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, Al Jazeera, PTV, ZTV, or the 700 Club. Thanks for an enjoyable article.

Ref echoboom #9

Your black heart bleeds for the Palestinians who were expelled from Israel.

I don`t hear a word from you about the Hindus and Sikhs who used to live in Punjab, Sindh, NWFP and Baluchistan.

Pakistanis are the Israelis of the subcontinent... without any of the Israelis` redeeeming qualities such as emphasis on education, the arts, self-reliance, etc.

Shut the fcuk up already!

Comment: The Zionist Hatred



uploaded 04 Jul 2006






Whenever Muslims talk about liberating Palestine and dismantling
the illegal entity of Israel Muslims are charged with anti-Semitism.
However Muslims reject completely the charge of anti-Semitism because
Islam is a message directed to all humankind. However, at the same time
we completely reject Zionism represented in the form of Israel and
Muslims worldwide are opposed to the continued occupation of Palestine
by the Israeli State.



The state of Israel is founded upon a land that was taken by force,
after its people were driven out, both Muslim and Christian. This is
injustice, which can never be accepted from an Islamic perspective,
regardless of the race of the perpetrators. In Palestine, Islam is in
conflict with Israelis – not in their capacity as Jews who historically
had lived alongside Muslims in peace and security for centuries – but
in their capacity as occupiers and aggressors.




History is testament to the fact that Jews lived with Muslims under the
banner of Islam for almost thirteen centuries. Throughout those periods
Jews used to have the same high standard of living as the Muslims did.
They enjoyed equal rights, prosperity, happiness, tranquillity and
security. The aspiration is to see this situation emerge again but it
cannot happen until the Zionist entity of Israel is completely
dismantled.



On the other hand Israeli leadership have never concealed their hatred
of Muslims and have been calling for the destruction of the Muslims
since the very beginning and its current invasion of Gaza is better
understood in this context than its false pretence of seeking the
return of one of its occupying soldiers.



The quotes from a series of leading Zionist leaders are reproduced below and require no further comment.





David Ben Gurion

Prime Minister of Israel

1949 - 1954,

1955 - 1963






We must expel Arabs and take their places.``

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.



``We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation,
and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab
population.``

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A
Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.



``There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was
that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have
stolen their country. Why would they accept that?``

-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.




``Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not
even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you
because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not
exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the
place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in
the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal
al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did
not have a former Arab population.``

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.



``Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the
aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because
they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in
their view we want to take away from them their country.``

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky`s Fateful Triangle,
which appears in Simha Flapan`s ``Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2
citing a 1938 speech.



``If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by
transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the
Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only
the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the
people of Israel.``

-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth`s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

---

Golda Meir

Prime Minister of Israel

1969 - 1974





``There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we
came and threw them out and took their country. They didn`t exist.``

-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.



``How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.``

-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.




``Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must
also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is
interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated
clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.``

-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961



``This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God
Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its
legitimacy.``

-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

---

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel


1974 - 1977,

1992 - 1995





``We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his
question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?`
Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said `Drive them out!``

-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.



``[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years
conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the
refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve
this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser
Arafat.``

-- Yitzhak Rabin (a ``Prince of Peace`` by Clinton`s standards),
explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without
stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York
Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen`s remarks to the Knesset`s foreign
affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

---

Menachem Begin

Prime Minister of Israel

1977 - 1983





``[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.``



-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted
in Amnon Kapeliouk, ``Begin and the `Beasts,``` New Statesman, June 25,
1982.




``The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized
.... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will
be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.``

-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

---

Yizhak Shamir

Prime Minister of Israel

1983 - 1984,

1986 - 1992






``The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz
Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the
mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of
whom will be gathered into this country.``

-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial
service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic
Radio Service.



``The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism.
Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It`s that simple.``

-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.



``(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.``

-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

---

Benjamin Netanyahu

Prime Minister of Israel

1996 - 1999




``Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations
in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out
mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.``

-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former
Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University,
from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

---

Ehud Barak

Prime Minister of Israel

1999 - 2001





``The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more``....

-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000



``If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead
would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more
force....``


-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.



``I would have joined a terrorist organization.``

-- Ehud Barak`s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha`aretz
newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been
born a Palestinian.

---

Ariel Sharon

Prime Minister of Israel

2001 - present






``It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion,
clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten
with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,
colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and
the expropriation of their lands.``



-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of
militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France
Presse, November 15, 1998.



``Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as
they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take
now will stay ours...Everything we don`t grab will go to them.``

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.



``Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one
has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on
trial.``




-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online




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