Comprehending Time

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#80 inquirer writes <<< is just like the obfuscators that Masadi tried to confuse the issue in his #75 gibberish! >>.

The article is about time, not Islam not the meaning of Khuda and Allah. Why this mirasi threw that in was his obsession as a Hindu, with Islam. Regarding my understnding of cosmology, I have read more books on the subject than this person has possibly seen in his life. I have a decent understanding of the issue but mirasis wont know that is why instead of challenging what I write he beats around the bush.

Re: # 77, T.E Shah:
It is just like the obfuscators that Masadi tried to confuse the issue in his #75 gibberish!

Or may be my question was to deep for his propaganda brain!! Thinking that I am a Hindu he tried to pass his nonsense!!!

Thanks for the clear and concise answer and if we keep in mind that Iran is Shia while Saudi Arabia is Sunni my question was quite deliberate in trying to clarify the muddled situations that amny Muslims and non-Muslims exist.

As for Masadi`s puerille foray in physics the less said the better. masadi has to understand freethinker first, no ordinary obstacle!!!!!!

#77 teshah << 75 by masadi

Allah and khuda are quite different concepts >>>

I put out the ``mirasi alert`` because that had nothing to do with this topic. People used the word Khuda in our parts of the world in the sense of `ilah` or God. There is nothing wrong with that, just like saying God does not make you guilty of endorsing the trinity, so saying Khuda does not make you a fire worshipper.

Regarding #78, freethinker is being more dismissive of the so-called subjective or metaphysical time than even physicists of the highest calibre. One thing we have discovered is that the universe is not as mechanical and objective as classical scientists tried to envision, consciousness plays a pivotal role in the equation at the quantum level where non-local events events that cause causation faster than the speed of light cannot be explained by relativity or the more mechanical physics.

tehshah:

Physical time is different from the metaphysical, subjective and psychological time. We are progressively gaining more and more knowledge of the physcial time. Divine time whatever it may be is of no use to us - pardon me; it is useful to the poets for writing their verses.

Jo thaa naheen` haiy, jo haiy nah hoga....

And good poetry is part of our life.

Mohammad Gill

Gill

A good article from you as usual but perhaps a futile mental exercise as time is the mystery which the religion could not even dare to pontify. God created the earth in six days but who created the days which according to Islam have different durations for heavenly and earthly existences? In any case why to make a mention of days by God when the day has no fixed duration even on earth? As Iqbal says time for God is `duration` (No past, present or future) unlike the serial one for the earthly creatures. Then there is no `start` and `end` and/or forward or reverse in the eyes of God. My mind boggles when I think about time in absolute and abstract terms.

75 by masadi

Allah and khuda are quite different concepts, the former being a Judaistic-cum-Arabian concept and the latter a Persian Zartoshtian one. They were used to be interchangeable in the sub-continent till the imposition of Ziai Islam in the Pakland. Zia banned the use of khuda in the government media and surprisingly all and sundry who mostly used that very name starting using Allah instead. Zia did this perhaps to please Saudi rulers. Paradoxically, he did not ban the name of a pagan ritual `namaz` to replace it by the Islamic one `Salat`. What a fraud he was!

Re: # 73

dear

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your post reminds me of the story of Einstein`s Ist wife -- who complained to the relativity man why don`t you look at me nowadays -- don`t you love me anymore -- the seer replied -- honey I don`t look at you anymore because I want you to -- remain eternal -- the moment I really look at you -- you will be born only to die.......:)

may be big bang is an artifact of our obeservation and calculation.....

#74 writes <<< What is the difference between Allah and Khuda?

Is the Sunnis` God Allah and Shia`s God Khuda? >>>>


Beware, Mirasi alert.

No body has said anything that pertains to the scientific concept of time.

Most of the correspondents are stuck on religious questions!!

So let me ask the simple questions.

What is the difference between Allah and Khuda?

Is the Sunnis` God Allah and Shia`s God Khuda?

#further to 72, your question 6 in #71 would be meaningless in a universe(s) where everything is cyclic. (cycles of big-bangs -expansions - contractions ). Where do you place the origin? Right now, for sake of clarity and simplicity it is taken to be the point of big bang (or the point when the expansion started).

The whole concept of time is like being on a mobius strip

its there but not there, you are inside but not really inside

Re: # 71

thanks for the list and the enlightening discussion so far.
Regarding 1, though I am no expert and just dabble in this area, wouldnt that be long the lines as I said in #30 - a quick question: if we assume some sort of a symmetry (yes even in time) then around t=0, i.e t=+0 and t=-0 say the two events should be similar and soo on.....which then would imply that on the other side of the biggest bang the universe is contracting (just as we are/were expanding). Would then mean that the biggest singular point is infact t=0 and that blackholes are just singular points in space (not time). Would sucha symmtery be possible/acceptable? What are its implications?

really time going backwards would imply that there is no absolute reference point (datum) for time. That this whole universe goes through cycles of big-bangs -expansions - contractions and that there are many other such parallel universes.

We can comprehend out own universe going through cycles with relative ease, but to comprehend multiple universes would be difficult. Perhaps comprehend is wrong, imagine would be more appropriate here.

In the last chapter of his book (About Time), Paul Davies noted, “In 1905, Einstein plucked time from philosophy and placed it at the heart of physics….Nearly a century later, our understanding of time has advanced enormously, yet the Einstein revolution was clearly just the beginning. We are still a long way from solving the riddle of time.”

To enable us solve the riddle of time, he proposed the following twelve questions that need to be answered.

1.Tachyons: can we rule them out?
Tachyon is a particle “that might occasionally flip into another universe, where time was running backwards, and then flip back again.”
2.Black Holes: do they really exist?
Are there such things as white holes? What are white holes? Davies stated, “They are ‘black holes’ in reverse. “Instead of swallowing things up voraciously, they spew them out.” They are not known to exist and most scientists discard them out of hand.
3.Time Travel: just a fantasy?
4.Quantum questions.
5.Is time just a relic?
6.The origin of time.
“If time existed before the big bang, we have to explain what physical processes predicted this dramatic and violent event, and how it was caused.”
7.The age of the universe.
8.The cosmological term (Einstein’s cosmological constant): blunder or triumph.
9.Beyond the standard theory.
10.The arrow of time.
“The theory that there may exist spacetime regions where time ‘runs backwards,’ or that the entire universe may be time-symmetric or even cyclic in time, is still popular in some quarters. There is plenty of scope for further investigation – and disagreement.”
11.Time symmetry violation.
12.The flow of time: mind or matter.

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 69 by masadi on September 11, 2006 9:44pm PT

Dear Masadi:

{Like I have told mirasis before, nothing I write is directed either at or for them, it is meant for those they are trying desperately to mislead.}

Talking to the wall, eh!

How can you be mislead? You are doing a fine job all by yourself, coming from nowhere and going nowhere, you are just going in circles.

Respectfully submitted,

tahmed writes <<< masadi: I havent read your last few posts to me, nor intend to waste any time reading them. But thanks for writing. :-) >>>

Like I have told mirasis before, nothing I write is directed either at or for them, it is meant for those they are trying desperately to mislead. You can read empirical proof of the ``Mirasi Mentality`` in every post these people like behram and tahmed make, one is busy with ill placed ethnic bravado, the other is cringing and crawling trying to invent his own version of evolution``, as an alternative to natural selection and directed evolution all for the purpose of distracting discussion away from his master`s crimes, any discussion about which he terms as ``communal garbage``.

Re: # 43 by kamath on September 10, 2006 6:55pm PT

Dear kamath:

You ask {Do you have an inkling why Iranians in the ancient times accepted Islam (and became more civilized according to Arabs thinkers) }

Yes, I do know exactly what happened when the Arabs won the Persian empire, but I would rather not go there. My comments were on the way this masadi chap always blames every nonsense that happens in the muslim world on the conspiracy evils of the west.

Actually, this thread of muslim misery was started by his confused state of mind. He has yet to accept that as a believer he can never be a freethinker. Or can he?

{This means some these fellowsthoght not every thing in Islam is all chutzpah. Do you agree?}

Actually, Sir, Persia that the Arabs won were the richest dynasty of that era, and they continued that path to its zenith, inspite of what the Arabs brought to that land.

Respectfully submitted,

freethinker #66 I am sorry for not being more lucid. So let me try and express the point I am trying to make in a different manner, as follows:

For most of our history, we humans were like fish in a small pond. We understand only what was inside the pond and no more.

Then, with humans developed ``higher level`` reasoning abilities as a result of evolution, say about 30,000 years ago (around the time homosapiens migrated out of africa). To continue the above anology, the fish moved out of the small pond and into a vast ocean. This ``ocean`` is the ``known universe`` that is like a vast globe about 16 billion light years radius from our location. Over the past couple of centuries, we have come to understand the the incredible complexity of this ``ocean`` - pulsars, vast clouds that are the birthplace of galaxies, billions of galaxies, with billions of stars in each galaxy, neutron stars, black holes, ``dark matter`` that comprises the bulk of the ocean but whose characteristics seem to have nothing to do with matter as we know it. and at the other end we have ghostly neutrinos, billions of which pass silently through our bodies every minute but are too tiny to even damage an atom, curious behavior of sub-atomic partiles like things being in two places at the same time, tiny bacteria and viruses whom we cannot see but whose combined mass exceeds that of visible creatures, and tiny ``strings`` each of which would be the size of a tree if an atom was the size of the known solar system, with ghostly gravitons moving in an and out of the three dimensions that we understand to hidden dimensions that we may one day come to understand!!

So far I am an optimist like you - there is a vast ocean of which our humble earth is less than a mere drop of water, and there are hidden dimensions (as posited by the string theory e.g.) and perhaps one day (unless we destroy ourselves in the process) we will unearth all the secrets.

But...we are still like fish in an ocean. We cannot comprehend what lies outside the ocean. And we cannot comprehend that....unless we evolve into beings whose characteristics we can comprehend no more than a fish can comprehend the mind of man.

Hope this makes clearer the point I am trying to get across.