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Veil for vendetta

Nadeem F Paracha October 22, 2006

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#82 Posted by nashe on November 18, 2006 11:25:11 pm
I have a number of problems with Mr. Nadeem Paracha’s article (Veil for vendetta, October 22 2006), where the veil is presented as a key symbol standing in the way of secularism and progress in Europe. I urge those who subscribe to this view to read Karen Armstrong’s recent article in The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1931671,00.html) on how and why Muslim women in the West have used the veil to project their self-identity.

In fact, I do not think that the French have been ‘progressive` in their quest to ban the veil. Let me explain my position in reference to secularism that seems critical to Mr. Paracha’s arguments. The term ‘secular’ refers to the state of being free from religious influence in the public sphere that is expected to be neutral. As such, there are two critical, interrelated elements underpinning the concept. The first is that it endorses both the freedom of religion and the freedom from religion, provided neither is given any special privileges at the level of the state. The other is that the common welfare of citizens is to be based on public policies without any religious considerations. Thus, for instance, the use of condoms from a secular angle is something that should not be based on injunctions of any organized religion. I raise these definitional aspects simply to highlight the fact that few countries on the face of this planet can be said to be “secular” in an absolute sense. As we all know, many countries have a genuine aspiration toward it, but they demonstrate enormous variations in adhering to ‘secularity’, especially in matters of public policy and law.

Despite the enormous challenges of curbing communal violence in India, the reasons for which are many, I believe the Indian ‘model’ for promoting secularism is far superior to that being pushed by the French and other European countries as it tries to foster a culture of unity through diversity – so that no single attribute can limit the definition of what it means to be an ‘Indian’. It does not matter what you wear, what you believe, what you eat or drink, where you live and what language you speak; one’s basic rights as a citizen are protected by a Constitution that is fundamentally based on the notion of respecting ‘difference’ and, for the most part, secularism in this particular context is used as an uncompromising state policy to enforce and promote respect for differences among individuals and communities.

The French, on the other hand, have actually turned the concept on its head! Their preoccupation with secularism reflects an exercise in standardizing cultural identity through, one could say, a ‘one size fits all’ approach! Their version of secularism denies ‘reasoned choice’ and expression of multiple identities by an individual in public domain, and thereby undermines the knowledgeability and freedom of people, especially the muslim minority. The effort to ‘assimilate’ the latter and invoke a dominant European ‘identity’ in such an artificial manner is basically intended to overwhelm and intimidate those who refuse to subscribe to a single identity thrust upon them from on high. Here, the choice is either to ‘endure it’ or ‘get out’, neither of which is likely to bode well for enlightened humanism in an expanding Europe.

In his latest book, Amartiya Sen, the Nobel Laureate, warns us about “the appalling effects of the miniaturization of people`` historically brought about through ideological means for the wholesale assimilation (and/or ethnic cleansing) of minorities. He illustrates his arguments using the long-standing Hindutva campaign against Muslims, what he calls the ``art of constructing hatred”. The French and Dutch route to secularism is, paradoxically, based on a similar ideological principle, designed to strip an individual the right to choose any of many identities, reducing the person to a single, somewhat unreal identity.

I think cultural adaptation and pluralism, rather than assimilation, are likely to hold sway in the end. Let me conclude with Sen’s more appealing vision of what should be possible in a genuinely secular context: ``I can be, at the same time, an Asian, an Indian citizen, a Bengali with Bangladeshi ancestry, an American or British resident, an economist, a dabbler in philosophy, an author, a Sanskritist, a strong believer in secularism and democracy, a man, a feminist, a heterosexual, a defender of gay and lesbian rights, with a non-religious lifestyle, from a Hindu background, a non-Brahmin, and a nonbeliever in an afterlife (and also, in case the question is asked, a nonbeliever in a ``before-life`` as well). This is just a small sample of diverse categories to each of which I may simultaneously belong – there are of course a great many other membership categories too which, depending on circumstances, can move and engage me.`` Identity and Violence: The Illusion of Destiny, 2006.

Khaled Ehsan
United Nations
New York
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#81 Posted by teshah on October 31, 2006 4:42:29 pm
Re: # 80

Naqsh

Sorry for the mistake and thank you for pointing it out.

In fact to err is human, but we seldom think as such. We are born with labels and prejudices which we carry all our life and even kill and die for them. Just think of Bajaur killing the other day in the Tribal Area of Pakistan. The liberal commando general comes on the TV and says that those who say that the massacred ones were innocent are lying. He considers himself `The Innocent` after he was declared so by the mullah by accepting his 17th amendment to the constitution of Pakistan. Every action he does now is innocence. Like a Pharaoh he was appointed by god as the king of Pakistan and declared innocent by the mullah. Why the same mullah are now raising so much hue and cry on the Bajour massacre?

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#80 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 31, 2006 6:30:55 am
ermm...teshah i`m am not echoboom bhai though he is my biradar dar islam

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#79 Posted by teshah on October 30, 2006 3:57:02 pm
Re: # 78

Naqsh

In fact, if you read obscurantist literature unbiasedly and objectively you will find it full of jokes.
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#78 Posted by echoboom on October 29, 2006 6:54:22 pm
teshah:77
that was a good joke!

The answer to all your questions are there.....if you care to read unbiasedly;beyond that I cannot expound or elaborate.

thanks.
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#77 Posted by teshah on October 29, 2006 4:30:18 pm
Re: # 72

echo

Thank you for the response. But excuse me you did not attend to my queries except copying a clip this time from the Holy Quran.

You say the hypocrites (Non-believer Muslims?) who insulted the women advanced an excuse that they took them as slaves. This reminds me of a joke. A man was taking bath in a bathroom the door of which was somehow left unlocked. His servant suddenly opened the door of the bath. The master upbraided him for doing that but the servant said, ``Sorry, Sir! I thought it was
Begum sahibah taking bath``. It is an example of what they say in Persian ``Uzre gunah bad tar az gunah``.
Btw, what happened afterwards when the lady believers believing in the excuse offered by the hypocrites began to wear outer garments. Did the hypocrites stop insulting them or committed the same `mistake` as done by the servant.
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#76 Posted by mehulkamdar on October 28, 2006 10:11:20 pm
Long before the French law banning religious symbols in schools, a progressive Muslim leader, Ataturk, banned not only the chador but also the fez for Turkish men. Other Muslim societies like Egypt, Syria, Algeria etc all offer degrees of civilization over the primitive Bedou culture that some seek to impose on Muslim women these days. A very nice article - yes, there is always tragedy when a majority of people take to religious extremism as the middle class around the world seems to have done in recent times. But, whether it is the Christian Right in the USA, the thuggish band of Catholic extremists led by the present pope in Europe or the Hindus and Muslims in South Asia, articles like this one are positive affirmations of the fact there there are people of conscience ready to take the religious thugs on.

Thank you, Nadeem Paracha, for a very well written piece.
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#75 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 28, 2006 4:39:18 am
What pakistan needs to do is buy a bunch of these Sunburn SN-22 Russian anti-ship missiles--even a few of these lethalest missiles in the world will neutralise India`s entire navy since one of these beauties can destroy an entire carrier. And they are unstoppable.

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#74 Posted by echoboom on October 27, 2006 6:12:19 pm
#73 by Naqshbandi
tashakkur!

MashaAllah

Allah-O-Akbar!
Allah kee rehmat kaa saya
Tauheed ka parcham lehraya
Ai mrd-e mujahid jaag zara
ubb vaqt-e shahadat hai aya
Allah-O-Akbar!

P.S: The idea is to get hamidm2 and tahmed32 (Q2 and Q32) get addicted & drunk on Gravol*)

*This medication is used to prevent and treat motion sickness as well as nausea and vomiting associated with various conditions.
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#73 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 27, 2006 5:17:43 pm

Why the US Navy will be SUNBURNed if it tries to attack Iran

--not directly relevant but of interest so i am posting it. echo, urstruly, you will like it. cantonment kuttas and others will wag their tales...


:D
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#72 Posted by echoboom on October 27, 2006 2:18:06 pm
teshah sahib:

the complete verse is thus:
The Verse on the Outer Garment (jilbab)


``O Prophet! Say to your wives and daughters and the believing women that they draw their outer garments (jilbab) close to them; so it is more proper that they may be known and not hurt. God is All forgiving, All-compassionate. Now, if the hypocrites do not give over and those in whose hearts there is a sickness and they make commotion in the city, We shall assuredly set you against them and then they will be your neighbors there only for a little while.`` (33:59-60)


All of the commentators agree that there were certain events occurring to which this verse is related to in Madinah. There was a group of hypocrites and corrupt people who bothered people and, in particular, slave women. Then when they were asked why they were doing this, they said, ``We thought they were slave women.``


``Seek permission to enter on three occasions...``

``O believers! Let those your right hands own and those of you who have not reached puberty ask permission (before they come to your presence) at three times: before the ritual prayer of dawn and when you put off your outer garments at noon; and after the late night prayer; three times of undressing for you. Outside these times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other; thus does God make clear the Signs for you, for God is All-knowing, All-wise. ``But when your children reach puberty let them (also) ask for permission as do those senior to them (in age). Thus does God make clear His signs for you for God is All-knowing, All-wise. Such women as are past childbearing age and have no hope of marriage, there is no blame on them if they put aside their (outer)garments, provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty; but it is best for them to be modest and God is All-hearing, All-knowing.`` (24:58-60)


Conclusion


There are two points which can be made use of in this verse. The first is that this verse adds nothing more to the verse from Surah Nur. Why? Because the verse refers to particular events which were occurring at that time, not a total ruling for all times and secondly, the verse just says to draw the jilbab closer to themselves.

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#71 Posted by KaalChakra on October 27, 2006 2:09:46 pm
teshah ji

Are those not the questions that OTHER Muslims ask themselves, their friends, and their Islamic teachers? :(

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#70 Posted by Love2love on October 27, 2006 10:49:08 am
Echo sahib, we are still waiting for the answers teshah has asked. Are we getting any, or are you going to put another press clipping about dog poo?
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#69 Posted by teshah on October 26, 2006 9:37:00 pm
Re: # 68

Echo

Your use of English is masterly but hate-filled.

What do say about thi, please?

``Sksamsherali ( Hijab and insulting of muslim women on: studyingislam.org)

As usual I am impressed by your write-up on the topic. Your quotation of Quran hereunder is very relevant to the topic:

``O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful``( 33:59).
It, however, opens a Pandora box of some very important questions which you did not perhaps consider important enough to comment. It says ``Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted``.

This very explanation further raises a plethora of questions which none could clarify so far according to my knowledge and to my satisfaction.

Firstly; how the muslim woman can be recognized? By a special dress they wore or some other sign?

Secondly; the question arises as to who were the insulters. Apparently they were Muslims as they insulted only the non-muslim women?

Thirdly; why Allah is selective being concerned only with protecting the honour of muslim women only?

Fourthly; why Allah says nothing about checking those insulters and appears to give a freehand to them to insult the women who are not `recognized` as muslims?

And fifthly; Is recognition as muslim depends on the dress only and if so what about the people who have been declared non-muslims who dress like muslims? I mean Ahmadies who are more strict about wearing veil than non-ahmadies. Will they also be spared from insulting, etc.?

There is no end to these questions but I would first like to read your comments on the questions raised by me heretofore.``

Can you Mr. Echboom furnish answer to the questions above?


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#68 Posted by echoboom on October 26, 2006 5:02:09 pm
Now how can you expect a cantonement Kutta with his coke-dhakkans as medals on his uniform come to the rescue of muslims in any part of the world.

How do you tell if the kuttaa is civilil lines or cantonements.

From his bark and his tail.

He will always bark at a mulla, a maulvi, a maulana, or learned people who are fluent in all languages including english [ better than those from toata-mainaa schools]

He will drool slurp move his body like an earthworm and would make kooN kooN sounds
whenever he will get whiff of the jahil who cannot read & write his own mother tongue but gives an impression to know english.

and no matter how much he denies a clear sign of a Quadiani is: He will NEVER ever utter a single word against his Master--even if the Master kicks him under his tail and advances towards the grand-canyon of the pack.

Let us see what the Kalb-e-Bush and sUGey-laura has to say about this report.



I was born in Hampshire, I live here, but they still tell me to `go home`

A MUSLIM woman today tells of the sickening abuse and insults she suffers on a daily basis in our communities since converting to Islam.

>


Tanya Salimi


Tanya Slimani, 41, has had dog muck thrown at her, been called `a terrorist` and has even been banned from the house of a formerly close friend.

And despite living in Havant all her life, she said people still shout `go back to your own country` as she walks down the street.

The midwife, of Briarfield Gardens, said she has received nothing but abuse since ditching Christianity and becoming a Muslim 18 months ago.

She chooses not to wear a veil, or niqab, covering her face but she totally supports Muslim women who do.
`We are not harming anyone by wearing these clothes,` she said.

`The people that throw dog muck at me and abuse me are the ones harming people.

`A woman can walk out of her house in a bikini and that`s fine, so why can`t I walk around covered up?

`I`m not going to compromise my faith to ignorant, narrow-minded bigots. If I do that they have won.

`I find men with their big beer bellies out all over the place in the summer offensive but I wouldn`t be rude to them.`

Miss Slimani decided to convert to Islam after a relationship with a Muslim man, who she is no longer with.

It was after the July 7 bombings that she experienced the worst of the abuse, with stones and dog muck being thrown at her in the street.

And she suffered another blow when she was told by a friend of 15 years she was no longer welcome in her home.

sofia.zagzoule@thenews.co.uk
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#67 Posted by echoboom on October 26, 2006 1:21:52 pm
It is really nice to see the secularoons, liberaloons, munaafiquoons, murtadoons, Quadioons & other Oon Oons take some sips from the poison-potions of their own concoction--otherwise known as Westoxicants--the Satanic Mumbo jumbo taught as ``LEARNING`` at such low class places (remove the lure of jobs/employment--and these degrees are zilch) as Harvard, Cambridge types.

But then there are always Madressaas, The seminaries, the Dharmsalaas, the Vidyashalaas and the Kabbalaahs

When the Material-movers ,with their weapons, over-power their own Mind-movers and try to stifle or crush them..the nation loses its brains and goes berserk
..........Echoboom


A good article in Isreal`s most trusted & respected newspaper.



Don`t dare go out wearing a veil



Last Update: 25/10/2006 11:50
A brief item in the Arabic press last week said Tunisia decided to call back its ambassador to Qatar. The reason for the move, reportedly, is the airing of a program on Al Jazeera, a station controlled by the family of the emir of Qatar, Hamad bin Khalifa a-Thani, that dealt with a campaign against the ra`ala (Muslim veil) being waged by the president of Tunisia, Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali.



Disputes between Arab countries and Qatar over Al Jazeera`s aggressive programing are nothing new. Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria and another half dozen Arab countries have in the decade the station has been around borne the brunt of its anchors and commentators` barbs. In several cases, the station`s offices were closed, its correspondents kicked out of the offended country and the local press was immediately enlisted to attack the ruler of Qatar, ``that little country, whose entire citizenry could easily fit into one luxury hotel,`` as the Jordanian press has put it.



Al Jazeera`s program was aimed at focusing the attention of the Arab world on the heart of the struggle for Tunisia`s national identity and presented it as a country that is fighting against Islam, precisely in the week when British Prime Minister Tony Blair explained to the public that wearing a veil in Britain affects the matter of ``how our society relates to the way in which the Muslim community integrates into our society and how Islam can live alongside the modern world.``This important Western leader`s remarks prompted a great debate not only in his country, but also in most Muslim communities around the world. The same week that the British prime minister made his speech, members of the Tunisian security forces were posted at the entrances to schools and universities to bar the entry of young women wearing veils. In publications of the Tunisian opposition, which is active primarily in France and Britain and speaks out mainly on Internet blogs, there were reports of violent clashes with female students. The police forcefully prevented the entry of the female students, according to the reports, and tore the veils from their heads and even struck them when they resisted.



Religion as a personal issue




In Tunisia, the law prohibits wearing a veil in public places. The law includes an ostensibly logical explanation: ``If we consent today to the wearing of a veil, tomorrow we will have to consent to the negation of a woman`s right to work, or to vote, or to study, and in so doing, we will be saying that she has no role other than to give birth to offspring and housework,`` explained Al-Hadi Mahani, the director general of the ruling party, the Democratic Constitutional Rally. It is an unprecedented explanation. Not only is a leader in a Muslim country comparing wearing a veil to taking away women`s individual rights, but he is also adopting the approach whereby taking away a woman`s right to wear a veil is a minor blow to her freedom, and the deed is intended to prevent a far greater evil. Tunisia is a secular country, although its constitution stipulates that it is a Muslim country. To a large extent, the toleration of religion there resembles that in Turkey. In other words, religion is a personal matter of the adherent, until he makes it into a public issue, and then he comes up against the state patrols that maintain secularism. Whoever wants to fast during Ramadan is free to do so at home, but stores and restaurants continue business as usual. On the streets, more French than Arabic is heard, women and young girls walk around dressed in tight-fitting jeans and Western clothes, and the number of women who wear veils is relatively small compared to the numbers seen in Cairo or Amman.



Here lies the inherent paradox of Tunisia, which, on one hand, is proud of its liberal and secular constitution and its progressive personal status laws, which grant women the same status as men, equal job opportunities, equal rights in marriage and divorce, and bans polygamy, but, on the other hand, this little North African state (with around 10 million citizens) has been ruled for some 20 years by a dictator. In the last elections, held in 2004, Ben Ali did indeed ``lose`` some support and instead of the 98 percent of the vote which he ``won`` in the previous election, he ``received`` only 94 percent, but even this erosion of his support has an official and enlightened explanation: ``Tunisia is a multiparty country and it also has an opposition.``



The truth, however, is the opposition in Tunisia is mostly the creation of Ben Ali. The 70-year-old leader, whose likeness in the posters on the streets and pictures in the press looks like someone who has yet to turn 50, makes it very clear to the opposition, with the help of his security forces, what are its limits, what is permissible for it to do and, mainly, what it is prohibited from doing.




Ben Ali made the Islamic opposition party, Renaissance, illegal though he allowed independent candidates to run in the 1989 elections. Human rights workers in Tunisia report that there is total government control over the Internet, and that it breaks into Internet clubs and private homes to prevent the transmission of ``dangerous material`` abroad; that political prisoners are held in solitary confinement for lengthy periods; and that an Internet site operator was arrested for supposedly publishing reports about terrorist organizations.



The veil is idolatry



The U.S. State Department report on human rights portrays a regime that is very far from the standard definition of a ``liberal`` regime. But has anyone heard any kind of reprimand of Tunisia from President George Bush? Has anyone dared to criticize the regime of Ben Ali, which absurdly enough, hosted last year`s World Summit on the Information Society?



The reason for the satisfaction with Ben Ali`s regime, seen in liberal leaders such as Blair or Jacques Chirac, as well as slightly more conservative leaders such as Bush, stems from the fact that in the eyes of the West, a Muslim leader who fights against the veil can`t be ``not liberal`` or ``anti-Western,`` even if he prevents a real opposition from existing, or imposes stiff censorship of channels of information in his country.



The joy of those Western leaders was made complete this week when Ben Ali himself explained his regime`s position on the veil: ``We must distinguish between this sectarian garb and the original Tunisian clothing, a symbol of national identity.`` What is this ``foreign sectarian garb``? The director general of the ruling party expounded on this: ``Tunisians are surprised nowadays by the arrival of several social phenomena that are foreign to their religion, their identity and their tradition. These phenomena have no connection to Islam, which calls for intellectual endeavor, exercising one`s judgment and searching for knowledge and raising the value of the individual.`` The veil, however, according to both Ben Ali and the director general of the ruling party, symbolizes idolatry. This is a statement not just in reference to the wearing of a veil, but also primarily a definition of ``Tunisian Islam,`` as distinct from Saudi Islam or Egyptian Islam, and all the more so, the Islam of Osama bin Laden.




Male power of seduction



However, on the edge of Ben Ali`s secularist policy, it is possible to also find the approach of the Tunisian human rights activist, Sara Dudash. In a sharply worded article that Dudash published last month on the Web site of the opposition, the Progressive Democratic Party, she warns that taking away a woman`s right to dress as she wishes, ``in a veil or in modern clothes,`` will eventually lead to the opposite result, and instead of minimizing the phenomenon of veil wearing, will actually broaden it, not necessarily as a show of religiosity, but as a reaction against the suppression of women`s rights and as an expression of her independent character.



Dudash does not spare any of those preachers and religious leaders who encourage wearing the veil from her criticism. According to her, the religious figures ``are trying to shore up the claim that a woman`s hair is unchaste, and very seductive to men. But the psychological studies indicate that the male power of seduction is no less than a woman`s. If so, why aren`t men instructed to wear a veil, or commanded to refrain from wearing shorts?`` Dudash asks that both sides, the clerics and the people representing the civilian regime, leave women alone and not intervene in their outward appearance or lifestyle.



Ben Ali cannot agree to this liberal demand, because the Tunisian woman, whose veil has become a measure of liberality in the eyes of the world, may not know where to set limits. Ben Ali would rather do that for her.
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Interact Index

    #82 nashe
    #81 teshah
    #80 Naqshbandi
    #79 teshah
    #78 echoboom
    #77 teshah
    #76 mehulkamdar
    #75 Naqshbandi
    #74 echoboom
    #73 Naqshbandi
    #72 echoboom
    #71 KaalChakra
    #70 Love2love
    #69 teshah
    #68 echoboom
    #67 echoboom
    #66 einsteinwallah
    #65 harish_hyd
    #64 teshah
    #63 VRV
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    #61 zeemax
    #60 okhla99
    #59 harimau
    #58 KaalChakra
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    #56 Naqshbandi
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    #27 parthaab
    #26 Kamath
    #25 SR
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    #22 Salim_Chauhan
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    #20 Behram1
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    #18 strongman_dick
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    #16 aslam644
    #15 hamzaad
    #14 Salim_Chauhan
    #13 hamidm2
    #12 Ally
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    #10 VRV
    #9 nasah
    #8 ShoreSahib
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