Youth Educating for Peace

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Re: # 19

I am pursuing with deep interest the serious discussion going on between you tolkinin and kal, but excuse me to point out that in the process a well-known Urdu couplet has got distorted by you. The correct Urdu couplet, as far as the Roman script allows, is perhaps as under:

`Mudaayi laakh bura (ya chha) chaahe to kia hota he
Wohi hota he jo manzoor-e-khuda hota he``

It means whatever intentions you might have the end result is in the hands of fate or God. I quote an instance from the recent history of Pakistan. Many secularists who had got disillusioned with Bhutto sided with the Mullah who were agitating for declaring Ahmadies as non-Muslim as they thought Bhutto won`t agree with the amendment and the result would be toppling of his regime. But what happened is history: The amendment was passed turning the constitution into a `Fatwa`, which later on used by Zia to create a new variety of Muslims (or munafiqeen) called `Halfi Muslims`.

#20 Agreed as long as Justice And Peace is included

in any frame work

whether peace or justic based its ALL inclusive

In peace-based framework, justice is not left out. It is actually promoted as a greatly desirable good, but with the proviso/agreement that individuals and groups will not start resorting to violence to enforce their own idea of justice.

The situation is quite similar in justice-based framework. There, peace is not at all left out of the equation. Peace is celebrated, but is expected to arrive ONCE justice has been done.

The difference between the two arises because ``justice`` in any absolute terms is very hard to implement even in the best of circumstances. Once you give people a right to resort to violence, you can forget about ever implementing justice - except in the sense of jungle raj.

Analyzing the practicalities of classic communism or other such ``justice before peace`` doctrines may help illustrate the point.

#18
mujhe Lakh Bur Chahe tou Kya Hota Hai
Wohi hota hai jo munjoore khuda hota hai
{No matter how much you hate or hold malice against me,fate is determined by GOD... }

Jiske lathi...etc may be wise idiom but there is limitation to people who hate or hold malice against you ...if you leave social justice or not uphold any other you would be morally bankrupt and foundation of peace(This may be non violent like malice and hate limited) would be shaken

Because ``justice`` is a most slippery and ambiguous concept. Once you make that central to your morality, you will have no morality left except that of the jungle - jiskee lathee uskee bhains (as happens mostly in international relations).

``oppression of the weak by the strong, of women by men, of minorities by majority, of heretics by the mainstream.``

Isnt for starter these premeses are adequate enough to work on alleviating this opression exploitation& inequality????/

But i do not disagree with your IDEA of peace but only taking it step further...

How would elleviating oppresion cause demise ornon peace by itself?

Good point. For sometime now there has been a sense that a fundamental gulf separates two completely different ways of looking at the world. The divide that makes almost all honest conversation across it fruitless, and ultimately bitter for both sides (since most people end up blaming individuals instead of the logic or ideas).

Should peace be taught on its own terms, and THEN people be encouraged to create just conditions? This is, for want of a better expression, human beings pursue peace-based morality.

Or should justice be required first, and THEN peace be promoted? This is, again, for want of a better expression, should we try to create justice-based morality?

Not surprisingly, my own conclusions, for what they are worth, are that the latter approach is completely delusional: it will bring neither justice nor peace, ever, anywhere. On the contrary, it is an unfailing recipe for a society based on little morality other than the constant oppression of the weak by the strong, of women by men, of minorities by majority, of heretics by the mainstream. Such a society will see no peace other than the peace of the dead.

You don`t have to agree with that view....

#13 &14 So the idea of peace should be enough to achieve it ....

what about injustices how long should the untouchables wait to be considered equal...

I have the notion the ideas of peace is not the same for all...

there might be just as own experiences of iNJUSTICES SO DOES THE ideas OF PEACE AND JUSTICE DIFFER....

jUSTICE AND PEACE GOES TOGETHER AND IDEAS TO achieve them are many....

Justice >peace>ideas

Tolkinin

See, this is what people will have to decide on their own.

Good ideas are great. They are not the problem.

But are there, in addition, ideas that destroy inter-group peace? That promote discriminatory associating and politicking against other groups?

If there are, then - if peace is a value - those should be addressed. If there are no such ideas, then there is no problem to begin with.

Really, ideas are the only things that will either change matters or not.

tolkinin

Hindus/Muslims aren`t going to discriminate any more or less than the other or others. It`s discriminatory ideas/notions that have to be stopped being taught and supported, like the brotherhood and the privileges of the caste, apartheid etc. The same white man/brahmin who behaved one way under apartheid will behave differently once apartheid/caste system is no longer accepted as the natural order of things. And those who try to will receive not the same old rewards from society but unacceptably high costs.

Address bad ideas. Human beings will follow.

#10 In case i have not been so specific there is difference betwen conquering looting chengis khan and even ottoman empire

and spiritual aspect of Islam which itself peance peace in arabic....
Testimony to that is christians and Jews never had any problem with the way they were treated by muslims
... compare to how coloniser treated them later....

Also exclude the political use of religion responsible for wrong doing,,,,

!0``something that to nonMuslims seems like a terribly outdated and unfair concept - an ummah - the political brotherhood of Muslims in dealing with nonMuslims, an aspect that is not always ``

I do not know if ALL muslims or followers of Islam are culprit or can be guilty of the crime of some....Just as India can blame it on Hindutva,Whites can on KKK so Muslims persay do not discriminate towards Nonmuslims as you will bear during the 1000yrs rule in india by several dynasties (who were nominally muslims only)did not do more than build casteles taj and jama masjid hardly a atrocety towards non muslms when left the majority indians as majority..compare that to spanish inquisition when the christians totally annihlated muslims there from the map of Spain...

Basically, if one wants to ``educate children for peace`` (and one can argue that peace is not an intrinsically important value) then one has to start teaching ideas/supporting ideologies that emphasize essential human brotherhood and mutual respect between differing groups.

tolkinin, ideologies/philosophies matter. They decisively shape people`s behavioral tendencies (hence actual group behavior over time).

In India those who call themselves ``Gandhian`` are generally much more peaceful than those who have no time for Gandhi (say, committed believers in the philosophy of Hindutva).

Islam`s ``universal colorless boundaries`` have had a real and huge impact. They have helped Islam spread far and wide, in all places, and among all races. They also constantly energize something that to nonMuslims seems like a terribly outdated and unfair concept - an ummah - the political brotherhood of Muslims in dealing with nonMuslims, an aspect that is not always to the liking of many Muslims themselves. But then ideas exist above and independent of specific individuals.

Saying that all ideologies are equal in every way, or are equally peaceful or violent, goes against both reason and empirical evidence.

Utopian philosophy of Gandhi on nonviolence has been violated by his own state people so has islams universal colourless boundries have been violted and ignored...i wish people rose above the selfish tribal instinct and become more tolerent but look around you reality is otherwise...