The Flip Side of Democracy

I just happened to read this article today. In light of 9/11 and the world in the last 4.5 years since it was written, I`m curious how Mr. Niazi`s opinions may have changed about America, morals, ethics, and accountability since that time.

re oniazi

Yeah! Jordan`s king is an illegitimate monarch but the murder-accessory Mullah Omar is the legitimate Amir-ul-Momineen!

Man! You ended looking for the Truth too soon!

Essensaur #35
Thanks for putting up such an interesting question well worth pondering over.
Sadhana

Reply #: 32 KaFiR K kHaN

You wrote :

“I am forced to write your utopia of ``alienate a billion people``. This is the Pakistani imagination which sees itself as leader of whole muslim world. This euphoria started with our Zulfi, organiser of Islamic World conference, dreamer of PanIslamic Army etc. He imagined that Pakistan would overshadow Iran, Iraq, Saudis, Egyptians and everbody else………

I trust that you, as software specialist, conducted an opinion poll before coming with one billion people. I trust you found that all Arabs agree with your definition that they are cousins of Pakistanis. I trust that Egyptians have accepted the totality your ideology.

I am afraid, this is not the view shared by many, who read history with neutrality. Ask new King of Jordan who came few months ago on Larry King interview on CNN and openly declared that Jordan`s interest is the only thing which matters and they will not be used for panarabic cause blindly. Palestine is Palestine`s business as is Syria the business of Syrians. Morrocans do not share any political ideology with Pakistan and Saudi know the value and politics oil without Pakistan reminding them of it now or Zulfi`s time before. If Pakistan is obssessed with Islam like crazy glue, they know how to get rid of the leeches. In realpolitik, Iraq is with India and Iran shares India`s concern on terrorism. So it is 146 million people of Pakistan who are at the verge being isolated and not one billion who stand to lose as you keep harping. WAKE UP.”

My Comment:

What utopia of a billion. Though muslims don’t agree on much I can assure you that other than a few Sheikh Tom’s, most muslims are not completely comfortable with US foreign policies. Go to any MSA or Islamic organization.

I did collect data to the extent that I could over a period of four years. As you know opinion polls are not the only way of collecting data. I may not have CNN’s or BBC’s resources but I have developed analytic methods to extrapolate implied data from secondary sources.

Your arguments would be valid for me to think about if I were still Kafir Khan Niazi. But my world view is based on my Knowing that there is a God and that Islam is the only true religion. I have come to this conclusion after being an agnostic/ladeen for most of my adult life. I chose that path as It occurred to me that if there is an afterlife then the question of finding the truth has enormous implications, so I rejected all faith and went on a long journey to find the truth. Suffice it to say I found Islam after a search during which I seriously considered Christianity and Judiasm as the only true religions.

Jordans King is an illegitimate monarch, may Allah throw him out. As for me I am not a Pakistani. It is rather presumptuous for you to think that I am Pakistani. As you know many Afghans inhabit Pakistan. I am a loyal Subject of Amir ul Momineen Mullah Muhammed Omar the legitimate and rightful Khalifatul Muslimeen and in my opinion the leader of All Momineen. Please visit www.ummah.net/action/km

I pray that 146 million people of Pakistan do get Isolated and learn to live a simple life within there means, rediscover their faith. Then again, this life is very temporary. It is the duty of All Muslims to dream of a Unified Islamic Ummah and Khilafat and work towards it. Results are irrelevant. Intention is paramount. Knowing that the afterlife is the only real life, even if Muslims remain divided and Russia and America beets up on us, its still irrelevant. The key to anyone professing the Islamic faith is to know that the real life to follow is secure. So if King of Jordan wants his own turf, he can roast his hump all he want in hell. I personally don’t see how I or him will even manage 15 minutes in the fire. I don’t have a problem if the leaders of our Islamic countries want to simulate being roast beef or chicken jalferazi.

Wake Up. The Stakes are too high.

Regards,

osman

Ferozk #12

Thanks for the Welcome,

I agree with what you say. But I do differ in one respect. Though the average American does not make policy, he can sabotage it. If the US president knows that Americans will not re elect him if he does something, he will either try to change their opinion through the media (an I believe will likely succeed) or drop the idea. More likely the former. In my opinion you are correct in pointing out the impact of special interest groups, however, I believe a sensitized American nation can counter them.

Regards

Osman

Friend #11,

I agree that Muslim rulers are worse than useless except for Omar…

What make you think Osama is not planning the downfall of the Saudi regime?

The flip side of democracy does not mean bad, but rather mean the responsibility that goes along with self governance and freedom.

Regards,

Osman

Shankar #6

Shankar, muslim governments neither represent Islamic thinking nor the thinking of Muslims. They are neither democratic nor ideological. So much so for the Arab league or OIC doing anything for their people.

Regards

osman

Asif Naqashbandi, #17

Asif Bhai,

Agreed on most points. Though In my opinion, that as a consequence of the Vietnam War, US Presidents are very mindful of engaging in military actions without getting approval of the people. A consensus is developed. The media plays a part in this. The President does sell the story to the people. I believe if the feeling in the US is that if the results of an opinion poll were that Americans would not re elect a president if he attacked country Z, the president will not do it. If he wanted to still proceed he would first try to develop a consensus and once he got the polls reversed he would proceed. This happened in the Gulf war. The war was sold to the average American as protecting their vital interest of Oil. In the beginning people had some apprehensions but the oil story sold quite well.

Regards

osman

Truth # 13

I think you miss the point. You say a bunch of out of shape people hire an inshape guard and that the in shape security guard determines the security of the bunch. You are correct. But if you they get the Body guard to take over my home and bully me, then I will hold the bunch of out of shape people responsible. The security guards is just doing his job, but the bunch of out of shapers are as they say pangaing with me. So if I have to take revenge, I’ll go after the out of shapers not the security guard.

You say I must demonstrate that those who make the decisions are ignorant, and that I contend that Americans are ignorant. On the contrary if they are ignorant, that is a valid excuse. As an example If out of ignorance someone hurts me then it is not his responsibility. If knowingly someone hurt me, I will hold him responsible.

Regards

Osman

Khokan #10

I do not believe a Billion muslims think the way I do. But in my experience most muslims have some grip with the US. It may have been due to Israel/Arab issues or whatever. I cannot conduct large scale opinion polls though my attempts at getting some US networks to try to conduct polls regarding whether US forces staying in Saudi Arabia is an issue for muslims all seem to fail.

Narain Re: 9

Narian, you have picked the essence of what I was trying to say. The way you have put is what I believe should be a major debate issue for Americans and for people of the world. I thank you for presenting this key issues so eloquently.

Sadna #8.

The point of the Article was the responsibility of Nations which can effect other nations. I am no fan of the Saudi Rulers they are indeed responsible for a lot of evil which Muslims have had to suffer and in my opinion have in many ways done more damage to Islam than Americans. They are an obstacle in the way of the Khilafat. The Article had a point. As a writing style I try to stick to one major point per writing so that the message sticks to the reader. I will consider fulfilling your wish and write a article critical of the Saudi’s Inshallah.

I wrote “… is performing an act abhorrent to Muslims of all ethnic origin.”

I did not write … is performing an act abhorrent to ALL Muslims of all ethnic origin.

So your proof by contradiction is not valid.

Temporal #7

Hey, I said, “I do not know of one Muslim who wants the Americans to remain in Saudi Arabia”.

Well, I am not talking about the Muslims you know in that sentence.

Regards,

Osman

Asif Naqashbandi, #17

Asif Bhai,

Agreed on most points. Though In my opinion, that as a consequence of the Vietnam War, US Presidents are very mindful of engaging in military actions without getting approval of the people. A consensus is developed. The media plays a part in this. The President does sell the story to the people. I believe if the feeling in the US is that if the results of an opinion poll were that Americans would not re elect a president if he attacked country Z, the president will not do it. If he wanted to still proceed he would first try to develop a consensus and once he got the polls reversed he would proceed. This happened in the Gulf war. The war was sold to the average American as protecting their vital interest of Oil. In the beginning people had some apprehensions but the oil story sold quite well.

Regards

osman

Temporal #7

Hey, I said, “I do not know of one Muslim who wants the Americans to remain in Saudi Arabia”.

Well, I am not talking about the Muslims you know in that sentence, just the ones I know.

Regards,

osman

Sadna #8.

The point of the Article was the responsibility of Nations which can effect other nations. I am no fan of the Saudi Rulers they are indeed responsible for a lot of evil which Muslims have had to suffer and in my opinion have in many ways done more damage to Islam than Americans. They are an obstacle in the way of the Khilafat. The Article had a point. As a writing style I try to stick to one major point per writing so that the message sticks to the reader. I will consider fulfilling your wish and write a article critical of the Saudi’s Inshallah. Yes I do consider most muslim countries leadships to be oppressive and if Osama & Co targets them I will see his point.

I wrote “… is performing an act abhorrent to Muslims of all ethnic origin.”

I did not write … is performing an act abhorrent to ALL Muslims of all ethnic origin.

So your proof by contradiction is not valid.

Narain Re: 9

Narian, you have picked the essence of what I was trying to say. The way you have put is what I believe should be a major debate issue for Americans and for people of the world. I thank you for presenting this key issues so eloquently

HN Reply # 4.

Agreed. Though to be fair, even if you apply the same standards on all countries, the responsibility of the more powerful states is more just due to the impact they can have on the world.

Warlock Reply # 5.

If as you suggest the electorate has a negligible role to play in policies and decisions of their respective governments, then democracy is a useless system. The value democracy and for that matter free markets is the fact that they are both feedback systems. Problems get identified, analyzed and the hopefully fixed. I for one have appreciated that about the US democratic and market system. It does seem to work for a good number of cases. I don’t think it is perfect.

This article was an attempt to give that feedback system a kick so that perhaps Americans start realizing that with power goes responsibility. I for one believe that the media does manipulate them, whether that is true or on the fact remains that given so much power American’s should be conservative in projecting power. I.e. they should really question their government in its foreign policy initiatives and care about people feeling world wide.

Your micro level analogy is not consistent in its application of the message of the article. Perhaps you should rephrase to that a wife and grown child of a man, whether educated or not, are responsible if the man goes out and kills some one if the wife and child have indeed approved and instigated the action in advance. E.g. if a Pakistani Muslim goes out to Kill a christian child or vice versa and his family says we will be very proud and dad you should really do this.. I think the whole family is responsible. Whether they are all liable for murder or someother crime may be a different question, but they are responsible. Nowhere do I set a academic or intellectual standard, the only standard is of one opinion and its impact on the militaries action.

The point is if I as a Muslim civilian start a movement to mobilize arms against the Russian for Chechnya which has significant impact on the campaign, then am I responsible? I think I am a valid target! What action is justified, whether it justifies them killing me or kidnapping me, that is a different question. But me supporting the Mujahideen to the extent that it makes a difference does make me a valid target. Similarly for Russian men supporting the war, if the absence of their support means no war, then perhaps they are a valid target too? I don’t say I have the answers, All I want to say is that when you support a military action, you must realize the implications of your support and the responsibility that goes with it. This in my opinion a question that must be addressed publicly and in detail.

Siagalph 235# 34

I was thinking about this same topic of belonging and affinity related to your post # 34 and my response to that. When I did a little soul searching.

My father was in late teens when he migrated to Pakistan at its inception and my grandfather arund 60 years of age. I was very young when Pakistan broke up in 1971.

I don`t remember my father or grandfather having any sense of belonging with India. Although my mother would tell about her colleagues and culture of her childhood (fond memories)affinity to its people. My father used to visit Bengal once in a while and spoke reasonable Bangla language. We had a sense of belonging to East Pakistan and its affairs as our own and its people as our own. After 1971 that sense of belonging has gone, but affinity is still there. Like I feel much more affinity to Bengali here than a Indian Hindu.

My brothers who are born in late 60`s and early 70`s don`t have an idea about East Pakistan, Bengal, Bangladesh war etc and have no sense of belonging or affinity with Bengal. In fact my brother`s friends are Pakistani and Indians, with whom they feel much affinity than distant Bengalis.

Now see this in regards to Meccah and Medina (Harmain). Because of our religion, its place is more close to the heart of Muslims, even more close than our home country or city. So whoever is ruling current Harmain or has ruled before cannot do away the sense of belonging and affinity of Muslims all over the world to this place.

So Saudi take policies whatever according to their National interest, like prohibiting Muslims from coming to work there, inviting USA to protect its borders etc. But when it comes to Hijaz, meaning Mecca and Medina, they know it very well that it belongs to Muslims all over the world for ``Ibada`` or worship and bound to take care of it only as a custodian.

For example Saudi cannot prevent Muslims from enemy country like Iraq or Iran to come to Saudi Arabia for Hajj on any pretext.

Siagalph235 #34

Although you may be true that it is a matter of Saudi and US.

Considering the Centrality of Harmain to Muslim faith and ``Ibada`` meaning Haj, it is not part of Saudi Arabia, but belongs to Muslims all over the world.

The Saudis not only know this, but also call themselves Khadim-e-Harmainush-Sharifain. One of the main purpose of the Government is to provide facilities to people who come for Haj and Umrah.

More properly it belongs to Muslims all over the world and Saudis are caretaker of it. Not only that but the services in Harmain are still provided (like opening Kabaa, providing water etc) by the progeny of people who used to provide this service since centuries ago.

There have been couple of Mutiny. One involving 40 people who occupied Kabaa in 70,s. Then after Khomeini revolution, Shia staged a protest in Mecca at the time of Hajj.

But they have been widely condemned in Muslim world. I don`t think Saddam would have made the mistake of attacking Saudi-Arabia and alienate the whole Muslim world. He would have used his influence to topple the Saudi regime and ending the American influence.

If Saddam was not taking a stand against America, he would have been widely condemned in Muslim world for attacking another country.

I recall an afternoon in my University days, when I was still confused about what the focus of my learning needed to be. Economic independence at the end of the academic life seemed to be assured, yet I had this nagging feeling that something was amiss. As the graduation date approached, I kept on wondering what exactly I had achieved so far, and was it really adequate for me. Our Professor of Organizational Behavior was to make it worse that afternoon.

As he walked with some of us to the student mess for lunch, we continued to discuss something we had been talking about in the classroom that day. I was hardly attentive – and do not quite recollect how Democracy and Communism as social systems got into it.

He picked up a dry twig that was lying around, and drew two figures in the dust. They looked identical, like the inverted alphabet T. “One of these models represents Democracy” he said. “And the other one is Communism.” Then, pausing to let the audacity of his statement to sink in, he went on to explain.

Each model had two identical straight lines. One represented Maintenance and the other Control, both important and legitimate objectives for any society. The main difference in the two models was which was the Basis and which was the Axis.

As we struggled to conceptualize what he was trying to suggest, he drew yet another straight line next to each figure, not connected to the figure itself. This third line represented Human values. Both systems somehow managed to discard the third and equally essential and equally legitimate objective of any society worth the name.

As though the whole thing was not confusing enough, he then drew a third figure, this one made of three identical straight lines. It was an equilateral triangle, symmetrical in all respects. This model represented, according to him, an Ideal Society, where each of the three objectives were equally important, and an essential support for the other two.

Could we conceptualize how such a society could look like? That was to be our assignment. There were no recommended references, no deadlines to meet, no submissions to make, and certainly no grades to earn. He refused to be drawn into any further discussion on that.

And so he spoilt the lunch, the dinner, and that night’s sleep, and that of many others to follow. Many years later, that incomplete assignment still retains the potency to keep me awake once in a while.