Beginning of an End

rf: I present facts to you, and you call that preaching. I give up. Have a nice day.

Re: # 27

Dear tahmed32

Try practicing what u preach, this is the first time you have responded to my contention posted in #4, and I find your constant high priestess hypocritical posturing rather revolting.

Again your slanted attack on urdu speaking people is obvious and cannot hide your prejuidicial nature.

Do you deny the fact that Hameed Gul and NS (Tinda Sharif) used Punjabi chauvinism in 1988 against BB (PPP)?

Do you deny Bengali charges against Punjab domination?

Do you deny Baloch contention that Punjab is usurping their land and rights?

Dont try to hide behind concocted stories and slanted attacks, try answering these questions.

As for the Chaudhry CJP drama, Karachi is not divided at all, majority believes that it is Punjabi chauvinism, now you can disagree but that is your pregorative just as much it is my or any other individuals right to believe otherwise, that is called democracy. ie try practicing what u preach.

Re: # 24

Dear Ana,

Reference to Poonjabi was in direct response to tahmed32 unprovoked attack posted in #6, since he failed to show respect or maintain decorum he was reminded of the Bengali calling Punjabis as Poonjabi in their typical bengali lingo, it has no ethnic bearing or in anyway can be called disrespectul unless somene misinterprates it for some other meaning. With respect to the English (Gora) usage, it is something that has very little significance in modern day Pakistan where all desis are Pakis for the Gora.

Poon? I have no idea what poon stands or means.

I totally agree with your point about chauvinists being present everywhere, thus my contention that Pakistan is an artificial state that has failed to evolve into a political entity as a nation with similar vision and objectives. Being a state with varied ethnicities was never an easy option and our political leaders have used these differences for their personal benefit at the expense of state and its common people. If stating the fact is considered to be offensive then Iam guilty of such an offence.

I like your polite way of writing and meant no disrespect, thanks.

Pity

Arrogance, false sense of superiority, underming Other's cultures and heritages, name callings, and then " Hujats ".


Afsoos sad-afsoos.


it wont get any one anywhere...

#23 rf: So I am glad you have decided to set aside your namecalling and abuse, and to give a response to my comment on your original post of #4. This is what you have to say: Pakistan does have many problems and one of them is ethnic differences that sometime descends into punjabi chauvinism.

In the list of Pakistani problems, "punjabi chauvinism" would be close to the bottom. Indeed, there is a strong basis for saying that it is "panjabi non-chauvinism" that provides the bedrock of stability in Pakistan (e.g. non-ethnic basis on which panjabis supported politicians from Jinnah on down; the lack of ethnic violence in panjab even at the height of mqm rule in karachi; the ease with which panjabis switch from urdu to panjabi; and so on). And this is not mere coincidence: Panjabi simply means someone residing in the land of the five rivers, and panjabis comprise a large variety of people settled over the centuries here.

The most hopeful sign in Pakistan against military dictatorship - the democracy movement of recent months - draws the groudswell of support from the panjab while karachi can at best be described as being divided. With mqm and its followers having betrayed the entire nation at the hour of its greatest need by coming out with guns in support of the dictator.

So, try to understand why this constant and unprovoked insults to panjabis by urdu-speaking types on chowk (of which your post #4 to which I objected that you felt to offended by, is the latest example) having nothing to do with the reality of Pakistan's politics today.

#5 FerozK

[In 1954, for example, the United States' Supreme Court passed the landmark judgement in Brown vs. The Board of Education and desegregated the schools. Had the Eisenhower administration not deployed the National Guard on southern campuses to make sure that the African-Americans could go to previously white only schools, that judgment would be a moot judgment.]

There was (in the 1830's) also the case of the Cherokee Indians being forced to abandon their ancestral residence by the state of Georgia and subjected to other indignities. The Supreme Court ruled in their favor but Pres. Andrew Jackson simply ignored the order. Without the will of the executive – those court orders are not worth the paper on which they get written!

#24 Ana
[I am going to try to be pleasant and non-insulting here in my response...]

You are such an inspiration!!

rf786: I am going to try to be pleasant and non-insulting here in my response, so bear with me.

1) I do not think that my age matters, I know from listening and reading that some British folk still mispronounce the word Punjabi. And yes, once upon a time they were our masters.

But that is hardly the point.

2) I have not been to Chowk much in the recent past, so forgive me for not knowing what your ethnic background is. I am making no assumptions for Tahmed or speaking for him, but I personally find the misspelling and mispronunciation of Punjabi offensive because certain Punjabi-haters have used it before as an insult, perhaps knowing full well the pejorative use of the word Poon. (Will Chowk filter this post now?) Tauheed's reasons for being offended might be different than mine.

3) If you do not care for Punjabis, then fine, honestly I could not care less, but saying that Pakistan has many problems that sometimes descends into Punjabi chauvinism? Just about every ethnicity in Pakistan has their chauvinists, and more than a few Punjabis have been at fault for many things. And so have others. I am not being an apologist here, because quite frankly as a Punjabi, I can be really critical when it comes to Punjabis. Having said that, no matter what your distate is for Tauheed, or how much you disagree with him, some of us Punjabis wish you would be happy enough calling our Punjabi buzurg a Punjabi chauvinist. The rest of the pettiness you two can sort through yourselves.

I do not know who here referred to who as Urdu-speaking narrow minded bigots, so I will leave that alone, except to wonder what does Urdu speaking have to do with the narrowness of their vision?

Thank you,
ana

Re: # 21

Instead of slanting the issue and hiding behind concocted stories it wud be ever so better if you accepted reality and talked about the real issues. Pakistan does have many problems and one of them is ethnic differences that sometime descends into punjabi chauvinism.

Telling people to go to hell will not solve the problem nor does it make the problem go away.

As for Ana, once again u r making assumptions based on your pettiness.

Re: # 18 - dost bhai with all the positives Manto at times comes up with - hes correct when he said about Mushraff being the last Militry Ruler of Pakistan . There's no doubt about it - in anyone's mind in Pakistan and in Pakistani Armed Forces.

rf786: If namecalling and abuse was a substitute for substance, you would be the big winner. However, no amount of namecalling can hide the fact that you demonstrated your inability to rise above petty ethnicism on an issue that has nothing to do with ethnicism - namely, the democracy struggle in Pakistan.

As for your implying that ana is an older person, well surprise...her age has nothing to do with what she wrote. You merely demonstrate your pettiness here again by ignoring what she wrote and picking on personal issues.

Re: # 17

"former masters"? how old are you?

Re: # 14

Dear Poonjabi Chauvinist

Using the word "Poonjabi" for a prejuidiced, hypocritical idiot cannot be construed as a attack on the Punjabi baradari, calling people as urdu speaking narrow minded bigots is a direct attack.

Punjab chauvinism is the primary driving force for NS and Chaudhry CJP, like it or not but that is a fact.

State of Pakistan is a articial state held together by force, another observation.

This is not the first time Punjabi chauvinism has been used, it was used in 1971 to denigrate the Bengali and then in 1988 to attack BB (Sindhi leader). Fact.

So take your pompous hypocrisy and shove it where the sun doesnt shine.

ferozk:

"Mantolives was right, when he said, a long time ago, on this site that this will the last military rule in the history of Pakistan."

Aap kay moonh mein ghee-shakkur, but isn't it a bit premature to say so? Couldn't someone have made the same comment at the end of the earlier military rules? The time to make such a conclusion, in my opinion, would be when a civilian govt. has been voted out and not booted out by the military. The signs I see right now are not very healthy. BB and NS had entered an accord last year to fight the military jointly and not to make any compromise with the military dictator. As we know, BB has already flouted that accord and seems eager to share the royal bed with PM as long as she is allowed to be on top.

The only difference I see right now is the development of a very vibrant and aggressive media; I suspect that the recent boldness of the judiciary is perhaps also made possible by the independence of the media.

And the reason that Tauheed or myself might find the word Poonjabi insulting is not just because that is how our former masters used to pronounce it. If being in the real world means being insulting in order to get a point across, well it's just another day in paradise here at Chowk.

The word Poonjabi has been used here before. And not for Tahmed alone. I find it quite insulting as well, but I think it speaks more volumes of the one using the word than those of us supposed chauvinistic Punjabis. I mean someone using another's ethnicity to insult him or her has got to be quite the chauvinist or bigot as well, no?