The Transformation of the Punjabi Man: Pashtunization or Militarization?

Extremely long, boring and sounds like yet another patronizing white man talking down to "less developed" about the reasons for their backwardness. Mr Berk, you are a little late for that whole white man's burden speech.

Re: # 339

Khusk "Sahib" represents the "mijaartee" of Pakistanis who have conveniently forgotten the racism meted out to the "new" Pakistanis from the "new" Indian territories by the "sons of soil". It's the same old story and seems to rear it's head every few years. Formation of MQM and assumption of the "mohajir" identity has now become the object of derision and scrutiny by the racist tormentors of the past. Prior to this, it was the legitimacy of the nationality (i.e. "quamiyat") of the "hindustanis" that was the constant target. Mohajir are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

People like "zahid_e_khusk" should spend their time and energies to abrogate racist "quota system" of Pakistan that was primarily insitituted to support the rural majority over urban minority of Karachi. It's a racist practise that every justice loving Pakistani should rise up against. Unfortunately those protests are reserved for corrupt CJs and their political puppet masters.

Kudos to the people of Karachi who have managed to thrive despite every road block erected in their path to progress and education by both rulers with ethnic agendas and ethnic groups.

{Khushk Sahib,
Just as the rooster should get no credit for the sunrise, the Mohajirs of Sind are not responsible for the status of the current residents of UP (followed by Bihar). Some in India could even claim that the Mohajirs leaving India for Pakistan rasied the average IQ of both places. :)}

Here is Daniel Berk.

So many interacts but hardly in touch with the content of my article. Karachi's disarray was not the topic but the religious thought, its spread, and subsequent effect on the socio-political realm and of course the psychoalanytical dimension. This to my surprise could be unwisely overtaken by ungodly demagoguery.

Khushk Sahib,
There is nothing inherently great or wonderful about Mohajirs. They are just millions of human beings trying to make a living, support their families, and develop a better future for their children - a word which includes BOTH sons AND daughters. :)

Zahid-e-Khushk {"At the very top one will see the residents of Karachi followed by those of Lahore, Hyderabad, Sukkur and somewhere down the index one will see the current residents of U.P. followed by Bihar. "}

Khushk Sahib,
Just as the rooster should get no credit for the sunrise, the Mohajirs of Sind are not responsible for the status of the current residents of UP (followed by Bihar). Some in India could even claim that the Mohajirs leaving India for Pakistan rasied the average IQ of both places. :)

A look at the history of the human development of the people whose ancestors came to Pakistan from U.P. and Bihar allows us to make a human development index. At the very top one will see the residents of Karachi followed by those of Lahore, Hyderabad, Sukkur and somewhere down the index one will see the current residents of U.P. followed by Bihar.

Cliftonbridge #334 {"salim apparently the only sin in pakistan is a man killing another armed man. Every time bombs go off in mosques and restaurants ...when women are hacked to pieces that doesnt count.

MQM is a murderous party but if they stopped challenging religious extremists, misogynists and feudals their murders would at least be rewarded with understanding from the rest of pakistan and 72 white grapes in the herafter. "}

My dear Clifton,
For many ignorant and self-deluding people, it is easier to complain about other peoples' receding hairlines than to comment about the hideous faces they see in the mirror. :)

Khushki Sahib #333 {"I never thought about the fine line between Biharis and Urdu speaking stranded Pakistanis. But what term should be used for them? Irrespective of the right term, my views regarding the responsibility of Pakistan toward them is not honoured by you. Is this honesty?

That Pakistani military prefered to surrender and thus end the war instead of keep killing the anti-state elements including of course the collateral damage of civilian casulaties is cursed by you! You want the Pakistani military to fight and kill our own countrymen?"}

Khushk Sahib,

You are damned right that I am not in the right state of mind. That is a slight inconvenience for me compared to the 35 years of suffering that these poor "stranded Pakistanis" have endured because of the dishonesty, perfidy, and shamelessness of the country they loved.

There is no such fine line between Biharis or UPites. The correct term is neither Bihari nor "stranded." Let's call them ABANDONED PAKISTANIS - which is what they are and have been for over 35 years. I know very well that Pisser-e-Zameen, especially Punjabis used the word "Bihari" to imply subhuman and thus dismiss, discard, and in a macabre way disown Pakistani responsibility for their anguish.

I say this with utmost sincerity and to further convince you of my concern for this humanitarian catastrophe, let me assure you that I am neither a Bihari nor do I have any relatives or close acquaintances who are Bihari.

As to the matter of what Pakistani forces should have done in 1971, I can say with conviction that what they did was the wrong thing to do. They saved their own skins and they abandoned their native supporters to a cruel and horrible retribution. Using the affinity of the conquering Sikhs for their Punjabi brethren, the cowardly Pakistani army surrendered en masse to establish a world record and provide bragging rights for generations of Indian nationalists.

When confronted with racists like you, HP, and Tahmed Sahib, is it any wonder that Mohajirs want to band together under a common MQM banner. There must be something very real, very threatening, very monstrous, that unites people from UP, Bihar, MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Hyderabad, Tamil Nadu, Rajasthan, Mysore, and Delhi with each other against Punjabis and Sindhis, with whom most Urdu-speakers have much more in common in language, dress, and food.

zahid politically bihari clearly means nonpakistani. It is at best a very very insensitive way to describe pakistanis stranded in bangladesh. At worst it is manipulative racist and deliberate.

While women in Punjab, NWFP, and Sind are raped, beaten, and mutilated; while illiteracy and ignorance are the main provincial languages; while feudalism is the primary economic policy: while Islam is being perverted to the point of 16 century Catholicism; and while poor nations like Bangladesh perform acts of charity for "stranded Pakis," these charlatans and hypocrites find it their duty to point out pimples on the faces of MQM youth...

salim apparently the only sin in pakistan is a man killing another armed man. Every time bombs go off in mosques and restaurants ...when women are hacked to pieces that doesnt count.

MQM is a murderous party but if they stopped challenging religious extremists, misogynists and feudals their murders would at least be rewarded with understanding from the rest of pakistan and 72 white grapes in the herafter.

Dear Salim Sahib,

You don't seem to be in the right state of mind now. May be we should talk later after you have thrown the unholy Pakistani passport in some drain and have started to feel like a free and better human being.

I never thought about the fine line between Biharis and Urdu speaking stranded Pakistanis. If according to your perception there's something offending here then I'd apologize for that. But what term should be used for them? Irrespective of the right term, my views regarding the responsibility of Pakistan toward them is not honoured by you. Is this honesty?

That Pakistani military prefered to surrender and thus end the war instead of keep killing the anti-state elements including of course the collateral damage of civilian casulaties is cursed by you! You want the Pakistani military to fight and kill our own countrymen?

That makes it clear that you need some rest
and a psychiatric consultation.

salim i share your deep dispair and shame. Although shamelful, the worst paki govt did was call them bihari and turn them away.
I think there are right now people who can correctly blame the paki govt for much much worse ethnic treatment than that.
The govt does not work for its people because the people by their very nature worship a caste system which makes all of them inferior to a small majority.

cliftonbridge #324 {"If the zahids of the world were not racist and not stupid there would be no MQM "}

My own dearest Clifton,
Exactly! ..and to this you can add Tahmed Sahib and HP, the sages of Pakistan who pontificate unity, nationalism, decency, peace, and progress. While women in Punjab, NWFP, and Sind are raped, beaten, and mutilated; while illiteracy and ignorance are the main provincial languages; while feudalism is the primary economic policy: while Islam is being perverted to the point of 16 century Catholicism; and while poor nations like Bangladesh perform acts of charity for "stranded Pakis," these charlatans and hypocrites find it their duty to point out pimples on the faces of MQM youth. Is it any wonder that the Paki goose is getting goosed in Miranshah?

ok maybe i did misunderstand you. You dont understand me very well either.

Look i for one am DESPERATE to see some alleviation of poverty in the whole of pakistan. I think that feudalism tribalism and misogyny is a HUGE MISTAKE . At the risk of sounding racist i will still say people who support the above can shove it. There are parts of pakistani culture that are so pathetic they must be openly condemned and not mollycoddled in the name of ethnic sensitivity.

I have NO belief in the ethnic genetics of ability... clearly ability is by collective circumstance and personal ability. I honestly dont even care what lineage gets jobs so long as competition is fair.

If i hate certain parts of pakistani culture its because those parts keep pakistanis down and subservient and prevent us from fixing the economic and social disparity.

I would be more than happy to get rid of the whole MQM ...but only at the same time as we break the unfair hideousness of feudals over everyone else, man over woman and sect vs sect. Till then we need these crazies to keep the other far worse crazies in check.

Zahid-e-Khushk #327 {"This brutal treatment of the stranded Pakistanis, however, doesn't give an excuse to Pakistan for forgetting them, let alone disowning them. They should've long been in Pakistan.

I hope, you'd not disagree that a Punjabi prime minister started bringing them home and settling them in Punjab because Sind and PPP were against them and interestingly the same anti-Bihari PPP is now being welcomed by the Bihari-loving MQM! "}


Khush Sahib,
There are certain acts of cruelty, perfidy, denial of basic human rights, and extreme cowardice that drive even polite people to harsh and "uncivilized" language.

Your blatant attempt to lump all Urdu-speaking "stranded Pakistanis" in Bangladesh as "Bihari" betrays your own duplicity and rather KHUSHK crocodile tears. Please don't even attempt to score brownie points for one Punjabi PM or another. Decent governments and their supporters do the right moral thing and don't play Pontius Pilate against the interests of their own suffering people stranded in a hostile land.

Shame on you. Shame on Tahmed Sahib. Shame on all Pakistanis for this shameful, unforgivable, and extremely myopic, selfish, and ZALEEL policy. Maybe it is God's will that the army that surrendered in such a cowardly fashion is being whipped like cream in Waziristan. Allah ke ghar meN der he, andher nahin.

I am ready to throw my expired Paki passport in the garbage can.

Please excuse me for a typographical mistake in my post 327:

"they certainly loved and punished" should be read as "they certainly loved and were punished FOR".