Limits of Multiculturalism

borivilli:

Lala Rajpat Rai was an arya samaji.

masadi saheb:

"Now please list your sources for your "guru hate" related understanding of Jizya. "

I am sure you do not want me to cut-and-paste what is P.S. available through google. I have not studied jazia in a scholarly way and my understanding is based on what I have come across in the media and especially on chowk during the last several years where this topic comes up every now and then. Unfortunately, I do not maintain an archive of everything I have read. In any case, I said that I have never seen anywhere that some non-muslims are exempted from jazia; so how can I produce something that I have not seen?

You are telling us that jazia is, in fact, zakat by another name. Both are related to income. This is, quite frankly, radically different from what I have read. As I said before, my understanding has been that zakat is based on a concept of piety and the ability to pay whereas jazia is a kind of protection money based on one's relgion, in other words two very different concepts.

P.S. I am experiencing a bad eye and won't be back to the computer until it is cured.

Regards and thanks for engaging me.

dost mittar
u are right, i read that gandhi had managed to unite hindus and muslims in the khilafat movement because he supported the muslims in their demand for khalifa in turkey (he was like the pope for mulims) but right wing hindus were emotional , and people say muslims are emotional, they thought muslims supporting khalifa is extra loyalty so some of them in punjab arya samaji,mahasabha, started shudhi, they converted some poor muslim malkana rajput and , gujjars and jats number was not large but big publicity this made muslims who supported gandhi look like fools and then they started sangathan boycotting muslim laborers and shopkeepers driving them out of buiness in jalandhar, multan, lahore,amritsar so the muslims launched tabligh and tanzeem movement.

and i dont know if lala lajpat rai was arya samaj or not but he first time supported division of punjab and india into muslim india and non muslim india he wanted punjab upto rawalpindi in india and muslims kicked out. at thait time quaid azam was fighting for united india, he even gave the offer of removing seperate electorates to hindus twice, in exchange for acknowledging muslim majority in bengal and punjab, which muslims had anyway but motilal led congress rejected under hindu mahasabha influence rejected


even in 1946 cabinet mission plan was rejected by gandhi and nehru for a strong center though quaid accepted it. so hindus not blameless in partition drama

In #265 read " History of Muslim rulers and what they practices is no "source book" of Islam." as

History of Muslim rulers and what they practiced is no "source book" of Islam.

#240 dm writes "So, jazia is not to be imposed upon those who do not pick up arms against the Muslims?"

In that verse the context makes clear that it is talking about "compensation" Jizya, for war related damages. Compensation is required for services rendered and not where a debt is owed to the person by the state (as is the case with the categories of those that receive Zakat). That is the justice principle, regardless of faith that is emphasised in the Quran. Now please list your sources for your "guru hate" related understanding of Jizya. History of Muslim rulers and what they practices is no "source book" of Islam.

Kaal:

"n one sentence we are dismissing and denoucing all faith-based systems, all of Pakistan, all of Khalsa...."

Once again, I find it hard to decipher your chakra-view.

dm sahib, ab main kya kah sakta hoon, except that that is such a regrettable view!

In one sentence we are dismissing and denoucing all faith-based systems, all of Pakistan, all of Khalsa....

hey ram...can anything be more offensive to ANYONE than suich criticsm of the Shuddhi movement? Will this criticism win us friends and lovers, and should we, or anyone even want those sort of friends and lovers?

Kaal:

Here is my problem with the "shudhi" movement.

First, the word shudhi means that those who had become Muslims were somehow dirty and need to be cleansed of their malechha dirt. This is no way to win friend and influence people.

If they had just said that they are willing to accept any Muslim or Christian to join their fold, I would have no problem with it.

And the movement failed in its own objectives, as it was bound to be. But while it failed to win any converts or reverts, it did succeed in contributing to the communal tension in the country.

bori bhai, I completely and totally disagree with my respected dost-mittar sahib.

Never understood the problem with shuddhi. It is a great move, to be supported by all. Those who oppose it are either evil, hypocrites and plain-old Hindu nuts.

In the meanwhile, please join us in discouraging, banning, and severely sanctioning all Hindu-Muslim socializing across gender lines.

Don't worry about arya samajis. They just lie. Or, they are instructed lie to Muslims, specifically. They have to do shuddhi by any means possible, love, sex, violence, threat, or simple deceit.

(by the way, bori bhai, if your Muslim nationalism was caused by arya samajis, then you are not a Muslim. You may be the Muslim of Hindu-liberal dreams, but you are not a Muslim on your own.)

Ananth07:

Yes, that's the name. Thanks.

Dear borivilli:

Let me lay to rest your concerns about my being arya samaji. I do have a few arya samaji relatives and I also know a few ardent arya samajis here. I find them to be Hindu wahabis and they are responsible for the division of my beloved Punjab. I also think that their shudhi movement caused a backlash among the Muslims and was one of the contributors to the development of Muslim nationalism that led to the division of India. So, there is no question of my liking them.

As I said earlier, I do know about Nargis and her children. I also know about Mumtaz but not about her marriage, except that recently I read some report about her daughter marrying one of the Khan actors, whose name I don't recall at the present time. I know that Subhash Ghai is a big producer of films but don't know much about his personal life, though I have no reason to doubt your facts.

As echoboom likes to say, bollywood is full of kanjars and they have no religion. My statement was based on general observation where most of the marriages involve Muslim men. But let me concede one point to you - in India, the children generally do adopt the religion of their fathers. I also would agree that I have no scientific statistical surveys to back my general observation.

teshah#224:

Kaal seems to be more knowledgeable in this area. But even the exogamy of castes seems to be breaking down. At least in the film industry, I have been reading about Kapoor marrying Kapoor. But then the film world goes by its own rules.

even if u are arya smaji why lie? that is a bad thing in all religions.

dost mittar u said:
:" In almost all cases of Hindu-Muslim marriages in India, children are raised as Muslims, despite all the whining about the difficulties faced by them in India."

I showed u four marriages of hindus with muslim women were women converted to hinduism and children were brought up as hindus. now if you dont know Mumtaz who used tocome in bollywood movies that is not my fault or subhash ghai or Nargis and sunil dutt.

secondly i showed to you that because of pressure of 80% hindu majority even muslim father with hindu mother children end up doing budh parasti in India for exmple salman khan and children of sharukh khan still u keep repeating you lines above are u Arya samaji? due u want to ro convert/ do shuddhi of all 15% muslims in India?

DM #223

Dude who supported hedonism was Charvaka

teshah ji, as far as I understand, the basic requirement is of gotra - one cannot marry within one's own gotra.

Gotra is one's genetic lineage (please don't ask me how they keep track of it :)). Subcaste etc were/are more cultural/ritutalistic in nature, a sort of common 'cultural/ritualistic' lineage (since every couple of people get together to make up their own cultural group).

So marriage was supposed to be outside of biological lineage but within the cultural one.

Don't know how effective both these concepts still are. The stranglehold of caste is surely breaking up, but people may still be keen to marry outside of their gotra.