US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan?

Correct me If I am wrong


But Urdu started getting Patronage only after EIC established Fort William at Calcuta after 1757 , and made the learning on One Local language a pre-condition for employment in EIC .

urdu closer to Official persian , yet common enough to be understood by locals as well , became favourtie.

Re: # 564
Exactly...
The source of Urdu is somewhere else and even the script. In India, we wear Coat, Tie, Suit etc...That is not Indian dress. I am not xenophobic. But claming some foreign stuff as part of our own culture is different.

Re: # 563
Ramcharitmanas is not basic literature. Is is local composure based on Ramayana. There are thousands of such literature.
Abhigyan Sakuntalam has inspired so many other authors.That is the greatness of these creations.

Sanskrit was not supposed to be for common purpose dialect. It is mother of all Indian languages ( except Urdu). Each Indian language is inter related and that is Sanskrit.
More people from India travel to Mecca than Kalighat. Dies that make Mecca as part of India?

Urdu is linguistically different from Indian languages, I have specified earlier(script,grammer, phonetics, alphabet)( Oriya, Ahamiya, Bengali etc...).

nkg:

If Urdu belongs to any country, it belongs to India. It is in India that this language was developed, regardless of it drawing upon Arabic, Farsi and Turki for a substantial part of its vocabulary; it is here that its literature, poetry, fiction were developed; it is here that it is still spoken by the largest number of people, especially if you consider Urdu and Hindi to be essentially the same, as I do.

Nkg,

And what about Tulsidas-Ramcharitmanas. More people have read Ramcharitmanas and Meera's bhajans than read Abhigyan Shakuntalam.

As far as Urdu is considered, it is completely mutually intelligible with Hindi. More Indians speak and understand Urdu than Sanskrit or Ahamiya. But I presume you wud not count Indian Muslims as Indians, wud you?

Regards

Re: # 561
I am looking greatness...
Like- Vyasdev-Mahabharata
Valmiki-Ramayana
Kalidasa- Kumarsambhaba, Abhigyan Sakuntalam...

Which has inspired so many other languages....
If knowledge Farsi/Arabic/Urdoo people qualifies Indianness, then I beg to pardon, then you will find large number of them in India. Ask the modern poets/writers in your state. Whether they know it?

As per my knowledge Sanskrit/Prakrit is mother of all Indian languages.

I have already provided with example of - R N Tagore...who bloomed during British period.

Urdu is definitely structurally different than Indian Language. Large number of people in India can speak and write in English. That does not qualify English as Indian Language...Can you please list the similarities of Urdu/Farsi with Indian language (Bengali, Gujrati, Oriya etc...)?
Mumbai movie is definitely very popular. Qualatively, it is very poor and collective contribution of Bengali, Tamil, Malayalam etc. commercial movies...or poor copies of Hollywood movies. Now a days these people copy european movies also...

Nkg,

(Urdo and Persian is not Indian Language.)

Tulsidas, Surdas, Meerabai, Kabir, Abdul-rahim-Khani-Khanan, Bihari, Raskhan and Malik Mohhammad Jayasi all wrote in Hindi and to the best of my knowledge Hindi is very much an Indian language.

Back to Urdu. Urdu is very much an Indian language (although Farsi not so), it is the mother tongue of millions of Indians, lots of literary stuff has been written in it including by Hindus. Among many North Indians and Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs too for long, Urdu was considered the language that respectable folk spoke and wrote in. Much of its vocabulary and grammar is shared with Hindi and the language is completely intelligible to Hindi speakers.

And if it still ain't Indian, all of Bollywood music (our so-called soft power) ain't Indian either. So you decide!!!

(What are the great creation of these poets?)

If you dont know these poets or their creation, then you dont know much about India's history or culture. And if you dont know about India's heritage there is no point in blaming others for destroying our culture.

Regards

Re: # 558
Urdo and Persian is not Indian Language. Does it matches with any of our regional languages? Structurally these 2 are altogether different than Indian languages ( Bengali, Marathi, Gujrati, Oriya, Ahamiya, Punjabi, Telegu, Kannada etc...).
What are the great creation of these poets?

Re: # 557
EIC rule was definitely very bad period for India ( Upto 1856). But, the situation improved after British Govt. taken over the reign. Economically, EIC and British people weakened us. But, the way India was plunging during moslem period, it would have created little difference there. I can see qualitative jump in Education, Health and other sectors with the arrival of British in Bengal.

Nkg,

#556,

(Please provide evidence of nice poetry during Mughals etc...)

Lots of Urdu, Persian poetry in Muslims era like Amir Khusro etc. But since u dont consider Muslim culture as culture I will quote a few Hindu names and a few Muslims who wrote about Hindu themes as well.

Tulsidas, Surdas, Meerabai, Kabir, Abdul-rahim-Khani-Khanan, Bihari, Raskhan, Malik Mohhammad Jayasi

Regards

nkg #: ...the discussion of whether british were beneficial to india or harmful is a long one......i used to think they were beneficial, but the more, "factual" history of south asia i read, the more my opinion has changed......

....i think the british were harmful to the areas constituting present-day india, but they were beneficial to the areas constituting pakistan.....

..they were, definitely, disastrous to the areas constituting bangladesh; considering the fact that they starved a huge portion of the bengali population to death; not to mention the fact that when the british invaded, bengal was one of the wealthiest places in asia, if not the world......when the british left, and till today, it is one of the poorest areas in the world....

one thing people need to keep in mind is that south asia was only ruled by the british for the last 90 years......prior to that, it was ruled by a corporation, listed in england.....the east india company......this would be the equivalent of general electric or microsoft taking over and colonizing a country.....this company had three armies of its own, in india, with over 100,000 soldiers in each.....it had its own ceo in england!!......

and corporations only have interest in one thing: profit....they will exploit their labor as much as they can, if there are no laws in place......the famines in bengal are equivalent to genocides.....i am always surprised they get so little mention in the history of the world.....and there is so little literature on them, when, in fact, there is so much on the holocaust, and now the armenian genocide......

why was british rule beneficial for the areas, currently, in Pakistan....primarily because there would have been no Pakistan, had the british army not conquered various parts of afghanistan, and included it into India.......moreover, this part of the world was actually quite backwards and did gain from the british infrastructure etc.....punjab had an extremely modern army, under ranjit singh, but was quite poorly administrated.......

.....to get an understanding of the advancement of south asia, one needs to consider the following: when the british invaded, south asia was a major contributor to the world's economy.......when they left, it was in shambles economically......when the british invaded, they fought some of their toughest battles, anywhere in the world, agaisnt south asian militaries - marthas, haider ali, tipu sultan, sikh army in punjab and even the 1857 battles........when they left, south asia had no independently run military with a local leadership.......

Re: # 553
Please provide evidence of nice poetry during Mughals etc...
Entire cow-belt (UP, Bihar etc...) is now devoid of any culture which roots to that period (after 12th century).
Any such instituion in Northern India from that period?
Post Vedic era, we have Kalidasa, Banabhatta etc...

Forgot to correct nkg on Kerala - Kerala was never ruled but fully occupied for 1000 continuous years by Islamic rules. Cochin being a way stop for spices from Moluccas, Zamorin found it useful to make money ~ 15% tax on spices from Moluccas eventually which went to Gulf, further enroute to EU. Arab horses were a frequent form of payment and the Chera rules made a fast buck of flicking cash off neighbourhood Pallavas, Cholas selling the arab horses. (This is based on inscriptions as well- please head to Jewtown , Cochin and so some travel - could do the body and mind good)

Forgot to correct nkg on Kerala - Kerala was never ruled but fully occupied for 1000 continuous years by Islamic rules. Cochin being a way stop for spices from Moluccas, Zamorin found it useful to make money ~ 15% tax on spices from Moluccas eventually which went to Gulf, further enroute to EU. Arab horses were a frequent form of payment and the Chera rules made a fast buck of flicking cash off neighbourhood Pallavas, Cholas selling the arab horses. (This is based on inscriptions as well- please head to Jewtown , Cochin and so some travel - could do the body and mind good)

Discussions such as the one by nkg # 543 are quite useless because they ignore a fundamental fact that History has to be viewed from a lens of multiple influences and epochs. If you just take Literature , for example, Vedic ages produced outstanding litertaure followed by outstanding poetry by early Sultanate (influenced by local colour). Birth of regional languages was in 11-13th centuries and until then, the mergeing of languages, Farisee, local Sanskrit (spoken now only by the creamy top layer of Brahmins) and the language of the masses - Prakrit, Pali, Magadhi....All of the languages produced outstanding poetry, supported by Lodhis and certainly later by Mughals - Akbar, and how cna you forget the last Mughal? Libraries at Damashk, Cairo, Tunis, Elazek, East Kurish regions....speak of an abiding love for written word by followers of Islam.

Ultimately, love for the Word is an universal one and denying it or having it ascribed to one caste/reloigion/country is incorrect.

Re: # 549
Please ignore these articles from Hindu or so called secular historians. The local inscriptions and folk tale gives you the proper insight of it. Go to Mysore and learn from local people (Kannadigas).
Indian media tries to prove Mughals were good and British people were bad. How come the UP, Northern MP, Bihar has suddenly stopped producing poets, scientists, mathematicians after arrival of moslems? Nobody will try to answer these questions.
How come there are no large tample/mutt in UP, Bihar and North MP, where as there are large number of such institutions in South MP, AP, Karnataka, TN, Orissa?