Indian Supreme Court says- ‘Live in is marriage’

Re: # 18

Sorry, a correction!

Read 'vow' instead of 'woe' in the second line of my previous post.

I was referring to the vow in the Islamic marriage whereby the female partner solemnly declares to surrender her 'Nafs' for so and so much payment, etc., called 'Mehr'. It appears the Arab traders who were the original addressee of Islam could not treat marriage but a transaction involving purchase of 'nafs' (Meaning soul,spirit,self,body, etc.,etc.,all in one?). In Urdu a question is put to the bride which reads 'Kia aapko baiwaz haq mehr... apna nafs flaan ibn flaan ko bakhsh dena qabool he'.
The Mullah insists that no 'nikah' is consummated without 'mehr'.

What a transaction it is! It makes the bridegroom the sole owner of the bride while he himself remains free.

The position in Christian marriage is rather reverse which is in favor of the bride. That is perhaps the reason that the live-in has become more popular in Christian society. Any how, if the present trend of women empowerment goes on it would become popular in the Muslim society also. It would however create more problems for the offspring of the live-in among Muslims than that in the Western welfare states where the state takes the place of a family to look after the children.

Re: # 16

What do you say about sex-slaves allowed by Islam and what is the marriage woe in Sharai (Islamic) marriage?

#16 TeraPakistan
I was excited at the idea of learning tricks of owning someone so I hit the Send key 3-4 times as I did not see it going.

I’m sure when you’ll soon become a regular drinker of cow pee, which I did not need to until now, once you’ll discover the health benefits as Ayurveda details them. It is much kinder and ethical than bleeding poor animals alive.

As for living-in, you may know that Hinduism is a later day coined word of last century. It is a collection of all kinds of speculative currents (call them religions if you like. It includes even one treatise- Allopanishad which expounds on Islam). There are firmly grounded atheistic philosophies also, since Vrihaspati of 9th BC, generally termed as Charvaks,which ridicule Vedas and associated rituals. Nobody takes offence and nobody issues Fatwa against them. “Marriages” are also classified variously. One among them, which I already referred - Gandharv Vivah, (Marriage of Angels) is very much like Live-in. A couple is considered responsible towards the society around them. No formal recognition is required.

What surprises me when you can ‘disown’ your mother or your sister who have biological kinship with you, why do you find it so difficult to separate from your partner if you don’t get along, instead of making each others life miserable. It does not mean you don’t do effort to save ‘marriage’ but you’re not blackmailed to stay in marriage by the consequences of a divorce. You value and respect your partner more because that is the only thing that saves ‘marriage’ and not the threat of lawyers or Maulvis

Please do check on what is happening in modern world. There are more children born out of wedlock now in west than of married couples. Most of the European countries are benefiting of laws, which treat unmarried couples at par with, married couples. But then do you marry to get benefit of social security? Many European leaders Angela Merkel, Mr Nicolas Sarkozy etc.. are living with their friends. They do not lose votes because they only live in. In fact, during French presidential elections, the opponent of Mr Sarkozy was Ms Royal. She had 2 children with her partner. No one questioned her or denied her vote because of her status of ‘unmarried’ mother. In fact she got most of the votes of French Muslim population.

I’m serious wondering where do you live or do you really read anything else other than some Quran. If I’m in the Stone Age, you must be a Ramapitheque.

Coming to Gays, Lesbians, whether they want to marry or live-in. how does it matter? Again you really need to make an effort to come back to 21st century. Paris’s mayor for last 8 years and likely to be socialist party president, Mr Bertrand Delanoë, a very highly respected person, never got married and living-in since years with A MAN. And he is not the first Gay as a respected leader having a brilliant political career.

Re: # 15

regard, ok, 4 reposnds to my post. It means I HIT the target right in the middle. Again, you said that whatever happened in India, later on happen in Pakistan. I totally disagree, as I dont see ppl in Pakistan drinking COW PEE.

Secondly, Live-in is not happening in Pakistan, if it is, it is not happening openly, as this would happen in India, as SC has allowed it.

I believe that, if the society allows the couple to live in together, then people would stop getting married and according to Islam that would be considered fornication, I dont know what are the restricition in Hinduism, you can better tell.

You siad that men and women have been living together for thousands of yrs without having the commitments on the paper in South asia. If you have this thinking, I think you better go back to stone age, as things happen differently in the modern world.

I think you also know that what is happening in West and what are the drawbacks of not getting married. They dont get tax breaks, they dont get the health insurance for their family thru their company and the list is endless.

I think the next thing in India would be that there will also be Gay and Lesbian marriages, as they really like to follow the West Blindly.

#10 TeraPakistan: I was wrong to think that social & cultural innovations don’t see border. In India, we assumed that there was no threat of Islamic invaders to our women. So the innovation of Sati, started in middle age, had died. There is still one odd case every few years from one backward area in MP. It is evident that this information never reached you in Pakistan. In any case, please we do not know what is happening on your side of the border. If you intend to invade us, please inform, we’ll stop dowry killings, acid throwing and other such novelties with which we had replaced and go back to time tested Sati.

I also thought people who live-in, usually take their partner as an equal. They are hardly the kind who won’t love their children. If I had seen cases, it is for the custody of the children. They also usually take precaution before having children that in the eventuality of separation, children do not suffer and go on enjoying the company of the two parents. Acrimony of financial separation in divorce is also not there to spoil lives of children. But certainly that is not how it happens in TeraPakistan.

Permit me also to be curious about tera Pakistan. Your remark to Ahmed:
“Tell me one thing, would you want your sister or mother to live in with someone and if she changes partners every week?? Would you really enjoy their relationships and ask them to keep it up??
I think the answer would be NO, and most probably you would disown them.”

Do people in Pakistan who live-in together change partners every week? How do they do it. It takes usually months and years for us retarded Indians to decide to live-in together.

Do you really own your mother or sister in Pakistan? How do you do it? A written document of ownership in front of Kazi! I’d love to own someone.It never worked. Much less my mother/ sister/ daughters or my partner. You are really fortunate. I hope that this custom transcends the border someday. Please keep us informed of such pearls. I’ve got a number of muslim friends here. Unfortunately they also do not enjoy this kind of privilege.

#10 TeraPakistan: I was wrong to think that social & cultural innovations don’t see border. In India, we assumed that there was no threat of Islamic invaders to our women. So the innovation of Sati, started in middle age, had died. There is still one odd case every few years from one backward area in MP. It is evident that this information never reached you in Pakistan. In any case, please we do not know what is happening on your side of the border. If you intend to invade us, please inform, we’ll stop dowry killings, acid throwing and other such novelties with which we had replaced and go back to time tested Sati.

I also thought people who live-in, usually take their partner as an equal. They are hardly the kind who won’t love their children. If I had seen cases, it is for the custody of the children. They also usually take precaution before having children that in the eventuality of separation, children do not suffer and go on enjoying the company of the two parents. Acrimony of financial separation in divorce is also not there to spoil lives of children. But certainly that is not how it happens in TeraPakistan.

Permit me also to be curious about tera Pakistan. Your remark to Ahmed:
“Tell me one thing, would you want your sister or mother to live in with someone and if she changes partners every week?? Would you really enjoy their relationships and ask them to keep it up??
I think the answer would be NO, and most probably you would disown them.”

Do people in Pakistan who live-in together change partners every week? How do they do it. It takes usually months and years for us retarded Indians to decide to live-in together.

Do you really own your mother or sister in Pakistan? How do you do it? I’d love to own someone but it never worked. Much less my mother/ sister/ daughters or my partner. You are really fortunate. I hope that this custom transcends the border someday. Please keep us informed of such pearls. I’ve got a number of muslim friends here. Unfortunately they also do not enjoy this kind of privilege.

#10 TeraPakistan: I was wrong to think that social & cultural innovations don’t see border. In India, we assumed that there was no threat of Islamic invaders to our women. So the innovation of Sati, started in middle age, had died. There is still one odd case every few years from one backward area in MP. It is evident that this information never reached you in Pakistan. In any case, please we do not know what is happening on your side of the border. If you intend to invade us, please inform, we’ll stop dowry killings, acid throwing and other such novelties with which we had replaced and go back to time tested Sati.

I also thought people who live-in, usually take their partner as an equal. They are hardly the kind who won’t love their children. If I had seen cases, it is for the custody of the children. They also usually take precaution before having children that in the eventuality of separation, children do not suffer and go on enjoying the company of the two parents. Acrimony of financial separation in divorce is also not there to spoil lives of children. But certainly that is not how it happens in TeraPakistan.

Permit me also to be curious about tera Pakistan. Your remark to Ahmed:
“Tell me one thing, would you want your sister or mother to live in with someone and if she changes partners every week?? Would you really enjoy their relationships and ask them to keep it up??
I think the answer would be NO, and most probably you would disown them.”

Do people in Pakistan who live-in together change partners every week? How do they do it. It takes usually months and years for us retarded Indians to decide to live-in together.

Do you really own your mother or sister in Pakistan? How do you do it? I’d love to own someone but it never worked. Much less my mother/ sister/ daughters or my partner. You are really fortunate. I hope that this custom transcends the border someday. Please keep us informed of such pearls. I’ve got a number of muslim friends here. Unfortunately they also do not enjoy this kind of privilege.

#10 TeraPakistan: I was wrong to think that social & cultural innovations don’t see border. In India, we assumed that there was no threat of Islamic invaders to our women. So the innovation of Sati, started in middle age, had died. There is still one odd case every few years from one backward area in MP. It is evident that this information never reached you in Pakistan. In any case, please we do not know what is happening on your side of the border. If you intend to invade us, please inform, we’ll stop dowry killings, acid throwing and other such novelties with which we had replaced and go back to time tested Sati.

I also thought people who live-in, usually take their partner as an equal. They are hardly the kind who won’t love their children. If I had seen cases, it is for the custody of the children. They also usually take precaution before having children that in the eventuality of separation, children do not suffer and go on enjoying the company of the two parents. Acrimony of financial separation in divorce is also not there to spoil lives of children. But certainly that is not how it happens in TeraPakistan.

Permit me also to be curious about tera Pakistan. Your remark to Ahmed:
“Tell me one thing, would you want your sister or mother to live in with someone and if she changes partners every week?? Would you really enjoy their relationships and ask them to keep it up??
I think the answer would be NO, and most probably you would disown them.”

Do people in Pakistan who live-in together change partners every week? How do they do it. It takes usually months and years for us retarded Indians to decide to live-in together.

Do you really own your mother or sister in Pakistan? How do you do it? I’d love to own someone but it never worked. Much less my mother/ sister/ daughters or my partner. You are really fortunate. I hope that this custom transcends the border someday. Please keep us informed of such pearls. I’ve got a number of muslim friends here. Unfortunately they also do not enjoy this kind of privilege.

Re: # 7
tahmed32, like your other posts, this one either doesnot make any sense, rather degrade yourself and Pakistan.

1. Nokar Shahi, Danda Shahi - as in Musharraf Ki Chaal

How come you brought Musharraf in this discussion. I think, you are going to blame Musharraf for the nuclear disaster in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, lol.

2. Oppression of the weak (women of poor families being a prime target) - as in Honor Killings, Hadood Ordinance, Blasphemy Ordinance, divorcing women without any legal obligation to keep supporting them (and "haq mahar" is the biggest joke).

Hadood ordinance is not valid anymore. and do you think that if you live in, you wouldnot have to face these problems.
Tell me one thing, would you want your sister or mother to live in with someone and if she changes partners every week?? Would you really enjoy their relationships and ask them to keep it up??
I think the answer would be NO, and most probably you would disown them. So, if you think some thing is wrong for you, how come that can be good for someone else.

If you still thnk that Live in right for you and your family, then I would have to say that you really meant what you said and I would respectfully disagree with you. But if you said NO, then it mean that you are another Hypocrite in town.

3. Superstition masquerading as religion - saying namaaz to flatter God into ignoring your sins; spending large sums of money to go for "Hajj" to flatter God into wiping away your sins.

This is irrelevant to the topic of "live in", so again I dont have to answer this.

Re: # 6

I disagree that what is happening in India will hapen later in Pakistan. Women, whose husband dies are also burnt with their husband's Chita in India still today. This doesnot happen in Pakistan. So you are wrong in this regard. If you want to write an article, Please do so rather posting someone else's piece to convince me.

Once you only live together without any commitment, it is very easy to go seperate ways leaving the future of children in jeopardy. One doesnot need to try to work on the relationship when only living together, unlike one would try much harder to save the marriage.

#5 Terapakistan Here is a gleaming example of written marriage contract and on the right side of Indo-pak and Hindu-Muslim divide:

Marriage of choice not all roses
By Muhammad Ali Anwar

SAHIWAL, Jan 22: Marriage of choice has made the life of an educated couple a hell on earth as their families, having different social backgrounds and financial status, have failed to accept each other.

The woman’s family has even made her contract second marriage to let her “lead a life of luxury and all money can buy”.

Mst Shahnaz Akhtar, daughter of Allah Ditta, solemnised court marriage with a co-villager, Ghulam Mustafa, son of Roshan Din, on Nov 6, 2006. Both life partners hold master’s degrees.

Shahnaz belonged to a well-to-family involved in farming whereas the man of her choice is a son of a poor cobbler. Being in love with each other, the only voice they paid heed to while tying the knot was that of heart, not realising what their union had in store for them.

The difficulty arose when Shahnaz disclosed her marriage and her family immediately arranged her marriage with her cousin Tanveer alias Mustafa, son of Bashir Ahmad. The marriage deed (Nikahnama) of second marriage was prepared with retrospective effect from Aug 15, 2006. The marriage certificate was issued by union council No 11, Chak 36/A/4-L.

Bashir, a man of resources, got registered an abduction case (of Shahnaz) against her husband Ghulam Mustafa, his father Roshan Din, who is about 95, brothers Farooq and Siddique with the Fatehsher police station on July 18, 2007.

Subsequently, the police claimed having arrested Shahnaz and Ghulam Mustafa in High Street (Sahiwal city) when the former was brought here from Jhang and produced in the court of civil judge Hafiz Muhammad Zubair to record her statement.

She deposed before the civil judge-cum-judicial magistrate that she was an MA in Islamiat and Ghulam Mustafa had a master’s in Pakistan Studies and that they both were highly educated and knew best about their future.

She stressed that they were sane enough to take any decision about their future and that their marriage had been solemnised through mutual consent.

Expressing abhorrence of her cousin Tanveer, she denied her abduction by Roshan Din, Ghulam Mustafa’s father, or any other member of his family as alleged in the FIR.

Shahnaz told the court that she married Ghulam Mustafa of her own free will and first went to Lahore where he worked and then they shifted to Jhang. “The Fatehsher police recorded my statement and sent me with my father to my maternal uncle’s home”, she said, requesting the court to prevent her family from inflicting any harm on Ghulam Mustafa’s family.

Detained in Sahiwal Central Jail, Ghulam Mustafa told Dawn that he had written an appeal to the president of Pakistan to provide him justice but he was still awaiting the response.

District Police Officer Javed Husain Shah assured journalists that the poor family would be provided with justice. He, however, denied newsmen a meeting with Shahnaz Akhtar on Tuesday.

Meanwhile, Alamdar Husain Shah, a local human rights commission activist, expressed fear that Shahnaz Akhtar might be killed if she was allowed to go with her family. As Shahnaz refused to go with her parents, the police sent her to Darul Aman in Lahore.

#7 Well said Ahmed. This apllies to the other side of the divide. Oppressive customs are disguised as religion and any resistance is declared as blasphemy.

I heard french govt wanted to give an award to Taslima Nasreen and mullah appeasing Indian govt. did not allow.

#5 MeraPakistan: "Kawwa chala Huns ki chaal, apni chaal bhi bhool gaya"

So - what is this "kawa chaal"?

1. Nokar Shahi, Danda Shahi - as in Musharraf Ki Chaal.

Forget this damned kaway ki chaal and learn the hans ki chaal: Rule of the Law.

2. Oppression of the weak (women of poor families being a prime target) - as in Honor Killings, Hadood Ordinance, Blasphemy Ordinance, divorcing women without any legal obligation to keep supporting them (and "haq mahar" is the biggest joke).

Forget this damned kaway ki chaal and learn the hans ki chaal

3. Superstition masquerading as religion - saying namaaz to flatter God into ignoring your sins; spending large sums of money to go for "Hajj" to flatter God into wiping away your sins.

Forget this damned kaway ki chaal, and learn the hans ki chaal: dont do the wrong thing to begin with. if you have money to spare to go on hajj, give it to charity instead.


Hope you get the idea. It is time the jahils of Pakistan woke up to reality - 200 years too late, but better late than never.

#5 Merapakistan As you did not get it: Point is that you can survive, live happily, have children without getting married.
Social customs and innovations have never known Indo-Pakistani or Hindu-Muslim divide. What is in India or among Hindus today will be tomorrow in Pakistan and among Muslims.

If you still need justification, I can prepare and article on that.

#4 Faisal.K arriage registration or written document is still a rarity and this discussion is not whether you have a written document or not but whether you need anything formal at all.
BTW, Gandharv Vivah ( Live in) exsited for thousands of years where Terapakistan is today.

#3 jayp If people do not have to fill in papers or justify why they are living together, I think prejudices will fall more rapidly.

#2 teshah Thanks. Hope it will kill dowry, virginity and sex inequality.

#1 Cobra same as #1

There seems to be a divide however in the way Pakistanis and Indians react.
Thanks for reading and giving your opinion

Now Indians want to copy West this much that they are also adopting their life style and would like to live together without any written commitment. I just want to say:

"Kawwa chala Huns ki chaal, apni chaal bhi bhool gaya"

im confused.... so what is the point here???

if u like u say are a live in whatever.. then what diff does the courts ruling make to u anyways?