A History of the Pakistan Army by Brian Cloughley

Re: # 265 please dont waste so much space with your illiterate BS , Mr Fuzair . Go brother , leave us alone .We are not interested in your absolute nonsense.

bulleya writes "i hope you are joking......while it is true that it is nearly, if not totally impossible, to win a war against an insurgency......"

an unpopular "puppet" insurgency, as the Americans have often started to topple governments in the Third World, often fail, the key word for insurgency success even more than outside suppliers is how popular they are with the masses, are they a people's insurgency, and if they are no matter what the level of brutality, they can NEVER be defeated militarily unless the entire nation is butchered with them....

Fuzair writes "Did that render his govt illegitimate?"

Moron, you're comparing apples to oranges. A government chosen through the mandate of the people can only be made illegitimate thorugh the mandate of the people. The Musharraf government was illegitimate to start with long before the SC ordeal. NO popular insurgency can ever be defeated militarily in the long run, ever...unless every last member of the nation is destroyed.....

Dear Major Sahib,

Thank you for the compliments. The more I read your recent ravings, the more I shake my head in sorrow at what decades of alcohol abuse have done to a once promising brain.

You are, again, deliberately mischaracterizing what I have said. My response was to Romair's blanked statement that insurgencies can't be defeated militarily. I was merely pointing out they can be and have been. The French in Algeria was a political defeat; the French in Indochina was a military defeat that forced a political one. De Gaulle thought that the Algerian War could not be sold to the French populace or to the 'West.' He cut his losses politically. France was not forced out of Algeria by a string of military defeats; quite on the contrary. It had military successes.

I was further pointing out that the tactics needed to ensure such a victory are not ones that any Western power would now be willing to use now but certain non-Western ones have happily used similar tactics in the recent past.

Given what you have just said about the French, how does that line up with your earlier characterization of NATO? Last I looked, France is still in NATO (sort of...). BTW, De Gaulle was court-martialled and convicted twice by the 'legitimate' French government. The second time he was sentenced to death. Of course, this was the Vichy govt and so losing the war it lost its legitimacy but, under international law, it was the legitimate govt of France when it sentenced him to death. Should de Gaulle have bowed to the 'legitimate' govt and gone back to France to be executed? In any case, I fail to see what was the point of that comment. Did you meant that military operations in FATA are illegitimate because Musharraf came to power via a coup?

Usurpation and legitimacy is a pretty slippery argument. I believe Justice Munir quite famously expounded on this in his ruling.... ;-) Where would you put Nawaz Sharif's physical attack on the Supreme Court? Did that render his govt illegitimate? Surely it was an unconstitutional redering his govt illegitimate? In a sorry political system like ours, effectiveness is probably a better judgement criteria than legitimacy, and the Musharraf govt certainly is NOT effective.

++++++++++++++++++

Romair,

I am not exactly advocating that Pakistan fight the US war for it; I am saying that the insurgency is defeatable militarily. You will notice my doubts about the political will aspect of it.

zeemax #: "Actually there's a third option. Join Taliban in fighting USA. That's the only natural option."

i hope you are joking......while it is true that it is nearly, if not totally impossible, to win a war against an insurgency......there is another point which is true also.....

the area/country etc. where the war is fight and won by insurgents is totally decimated, beyond recovery......and has to be built up from scratch.....

so why in the world should pakistan destroy itself, to fight the usa on behalf of the taliban.......that is even more ridiculous than pakistan destroying itself by joining the war with the usa, to destroy the taliban.....

you are suggesting the former and fuzair is suggesting the later......

why are pakistanis so anxious to join other people's wars......perhaps, as a change, pakistan should try to just stay out of a fight and let the taliban and americans fight it out with each other.........

Re: # 262 sorry for the typing errors " diminish" and "praise"

more to the shallow analysis on algeria , General Degaulle was not a tinpot usurper who grabbed power by treason like Zia,Ayub or Musharraf.He was an elected man.

Degaulle wisely decided that France must withdraw from Algeria.It was a great decision.France is still a great power and degaulle's brilliant decision to withdraw from Algeria is remembered as a great decision in France and all the world.Now we have some strange so called analysts who are glorifying torture as a good way of defeating insurgency.

i am really surprised why people are wasting so much time and energy talking such pure and unadulterated nonsense.

what they are saying is as clear as mud.

this however does not dominish my resolve to still write on chowk.all prsie to chowk for through this forum i have discovered some sharp gentlemen like HP,Ijaz Gul and Zeemax as well as Eklavaya and some very very blockhead gentleman who continuously talk absolute nonsense.

i am surprised that there are some very dim witted interactors here . true that they have read some books but they are having the mind set of atilla the hun . i am very familiar with US Army and NATO since I am working as a civilian contractor.In August 2007 I was invited by US Army Center for Military History on a seminar dealing with Low Intensity War.

The French were a barbaic lot and they were kicked out of indo china and algeria.the japs played hell with the french in indo china whereas the nazis played hell with the french in 1940-44.The French mentally and psychologically disturbed that they were applied techniques learnt from NAZIs and Japs and failed.

The USA and NATO have a political mission in Afghanistan and Iraq.They are not as stupid as the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan and Waziristan.Although I did serve in this ridiculous outfit wasting 13 years of my life till 1993.

pew writes "Never mind that the many idiots on Chowk will never understand you"

Half brain retards (like yourself) with the morals only befitting a member of the Pakistan Army, might understand him, other know that as far as facts and reasoning goes the guy is totally stumped....Reasonless cheerleading for those pushing your perverted point of view is no proof whatsoever. Give it up fool...

Re: # 253 Fuzair

You are a very sharp analyst, and willing to call a spade a spade. That is a rare combination. Never mind that the many idiots on Chowk will never understand you.

Re: # 256 Indepenednt thirdway is proper as suggested by Masadi..
Talibans, Ameican control and army dictetector ships will come and go but pakistani people and state will go ahead in long terms. Some times it may look one step backwards but in long terms two steps forward. Its waiting game in ultimate sense towards national salvations, to be achived by people noboy or usa can not bestow to pakistani people.
Things will improve over long terms.

Re: # 250 India will break economically in Kashmir.
That how india will become pieces as what happened to soviet union. It will take time as they have no where to withdraw. Gurrillas of Kasmir eventually defeat indian armies but when kashmir becomes too hot like iraq or lebenon. One has wait , and many kashmir days will go even pakistan may not be of same size but kashmir struggle will go on till victory and then gurrillas will demolish even mainland india. Just as german brought holy roman empire it took century but when finally they reached rome there were no romans to defend rome, the final chapter of doom of delhi.
Problem it is all question of time and patience , just like tiger follows prey without maing noise and stocking stilth movements, and final ends comes swift dramatically same way when fruit of mango initially is sour but needs time, wait and wait it turns ripe and finally drops itself on ground to be picked up. It needs patience and this stilth game only patience is virtue. Just like at last moment leapord jumps up and grabs dears neck in mouth and struggle is over. No justice no peace as american black leader said and keep site on big picture. No atomic bombs not grass eating that romantic stuff but just patience and more patience and firm faith and courage in no justice no peace.

Zeemax my friend, give it up, there are better more intelligent positions to take in the "fight" than join those thugs. The US wants the Taliban to coopt the real struggle against the Shaitan, that way both the US and the Taliban can grow fat eating the flesh of humanity. We reject them both...

#251 Posted by zeemax on February 9, 2008 12:44:08 am


Actually there's a third option. Join Taliban in fighting USA. That's the only natural option.


wah bhai wah...

gaand me dum nahi
hum kisi se kum nahi...

fuzair writes "A major difference between the French in Algeria and the US in Iraq/Afghanistan is that the French had hundreds if not thousands of Arabic speakers they could trust and many village headmen spoke some French (often ex soldiers) and the US has a few dozen Arabic and Pushto speakers at best; ones they can actually trust."

More BS from the moron, the US has set up puppet regimes in both Afghanistan and Iraq and claims to train tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands to populate the indigeneous armies, and this genius from the cream of the PMA crop wants us to believe that they all speak Latin...

Romair,

I wasn't talking about genocide; depopulation meant specifically forcing the people out of their villages into govt controlled compouds where the Army could control who came in, who left, if any strangers were around, etc. The village chiefs in areas that were not treated so were made responsible for any insurgent act that took place there, so to encourage them to report any suspicious activity. Village militias, harkis, were raised, armed and trained by the French to act against the ALN insurgents with Army support made available (via helicopters) in case of heavy attack. The Army carried out summary executions of villagers suspected of collaborating with the ALN. Each part of French Algeria was made the responsibility of a specific Army/Legion unit so any increase in insurgent activity was held directly against a specific CO. Captured ALN members were often given the choice between being shot or working for the French; many chose to turn coat. Incidentally, the ALN wised up and infiltrated their own men into several French units.

A major difference between the French in Algeria and the US in Iraq/Afghanistan is that the French had hundreds if not thousands of Arabic speakers they could trust and many village headmen spoke some French (often ex soldiers) and the US has a few dozen Arabic and Pushto speakers at best; ones they can actually trust. I remember reading that a combat brigade in Iraq a couple of years ago had only one Arabic speaker who had top-secret clearance. Without good intelligence, any counter-insurgency is pretty much useless since, presumably, the aim is not to nuke the country side but to actually control it. The Americans could bomb Vietnam until the water buffalos came home (assuming any water buffalos were still alive) but they never actually controlled the countryside; that was the main difference between the US and France in Algeria. The Soviets in Afghanistan did essentially what the Americans did and couldn't figure out why the insurgency could not be defeated--that and they never mounted cross-border raids on Pakistan, which the US did all the time in Laos and Cambodia.

The FATA insurgency is certainly controllable/defeatable provided the Army wants to do it, is willing to pay the cost and can find some competent officers to carry out the policies. I doubt this will actually happen