Funding Lower Education

what do you think should be done to create funds in order to make public education more accesible

Re: waqas khan

you said: ``Sure, a child doing hard labor 10 hours a day has time to go to school and hten go do his homerk. Also, a person earning 2000 Rupees a month wiht four children surely has the compunction to let them just got school and not to work wiht him in the fields.
I do not know what article you were reading but it surely did not do its himework, for surely things are even worse in India.``


Waqas, dont be dismissive about this study just because its findings do not correspond with stereotypes of ``poor``, ``illiterate`` people who are unable or unwilling to go to school. Let me quote the study that the article reports:

``..among 1,221 Indian parents who were interviewed in a recent survey planned by a group of researchers based at the Delhi School of economics and the Indian Social Institute. The survey coverd all the schooling facilities in a randomly selected sample of 188 villages in Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh and Rajhastan.``

I am missing the title page of my copy of the article, but will get it if people are interested. It was published in the October 13, 1997 issue of India Today.

Re: the debate

I think this debate is interesting, but there is something to be said for us doing OUR homework and trying to find out what is going on in Pakistan in terms of primary education; what is working; what is not working and (for the hundreth time)what the people want. Top down models and solutions for social and economic development, suggested by `experts`(Western educated elite scholars and scientists) have been a complete failure in most instances (most notably, world bank projects come to mind). The problem has been a lack of participation of those whom the policies are designed to `help`(as if basic education is charity and not a fundamental human right). the only `solution` that has a real chance of success is one which recognizes that the participation of those affected is crucial, both in analyzing the problem and in coming up with solutions and in implementing the proposed solutions. Adil makes it very clear that the political commitment, that would be required for such an approach, does not exist among our `rulers`.

Our proposals for funding lower education are well meaning but IMHO myopic. We are skirting the issue of national priorties, by failing to pare down the defence expenditures. I am not advocating confrontational policies, but there must be a fundamental realization that the social sector must take precedence over institutionalised interests. I agree that the political forces are too strong to pare the military- beaurocratic complex in Pakistan, Notheless market forces change political opinion,
as the sense of deprivation continues and the situation detriorates, these institutions will increasingly loose both political muscle and public goodwill. The current mililtary leadership are cognizant of this and hence you see a more focused push towards economic stability from the same establishment. Down-sizing of these institutions is essential for their own eventual survival.

Education has to be addressed as part and package of the social reformation in Pakistan.
Secondly there must be a growing realization that the urban and rural sectors have different prioirities and hence require different solutions. Our national obsession with unformity between the urban & riral sectors has caused much rift between the two. Eventually the two should be reconciled, but past policies have disintegrated the vibrant urban sector to the same level of improvishment as the rural sector, quite opposite the intendend effect.

Urban Solutions:
The Federal & state Govt needs to get out of the business of education and other civic functions.
Divide Mega cities of Karachi, Lahore, Peshawar , Faislabad , Hyderabad into manageable cities like Gulshan, Gulberg Nazimabad etc .... Let these local Governments figure out their education, law enforcement, water, power , transportation & other requirements. Government works best at the local
level.
This way people in each area figure out there own priorities and requirements. DIsparities will occur, but these can be counter balanced by State or Federal help.

Rural Solutions:
These require Govt intervention to counter the entrenched feudal culture. Perhaps more able people than my self have better ideas in these areas.

Reality: Goverenment is controlled rural fiefs, who donot want to pay for the benefits that they receive as urban residents. Perhaps this current Census drive will change the political landscape to permit some change. Ironically the demographics of the Army establishment is also more urban now, than ever before, and thefore, their interests also lie in shifting the balance of power to more progressive leadership.

Decentralizations is the key to a host of our problems, where accountability and accessability is controlled by the constituents. Otherwise, even the best intentions ground to a halt in the swamp called government, and what we get at best, are band-aid solutions.

Let us diferentiate here between the Military as an Institution and military personell as individuals. Like all other Institutions, the Military as an institution has only one legitimate intersts which is its own institutional self-preservation. That is not an accusation; it is a fact that is true for all institutions (including religious Institutions) everywhere.

[Before someone again highjacks this in a wrong direction let me state that I am talking about Institutions witha capital ``I`` in the New Institutionalism sense of it and NOT as a substitute for `organization`. For example, then, there is the Market as an Institution too and the relevance of that will just become clear.]

As an Institution, then, the Military cannot be expected to do anything except for reasons of its own Institutional priorities and similarly, as an Institution, the Market will not do anything except for its Institutional priorities. Moreover, education is NOT an Institutional priority of either the Military or the Market (except opening overpriced stables for spoiled rich brats). Having said that, let us also be clear that there can be, and are, differences between the Institutional priorities of these sectors and the individual priorities of those who inhabit them. So, for example, while Iconsider the Market--as an Institution--to be a dubious at best force, I know and admire many individuals who operate in that arena to be wonderful people who do things that do not make Market sense (i.e. open philanthropic schools). But let us be conceptually clear here.... when a businessperson donates money to a school or opens a philanthropic schools she it is NOT a Market solution even if it is coming from a Market individual.... The ONLY Market solution would be to open for-profit schools. This distinction, I think, is critical.

Let us now come back to the Military and let me repeat once again that I am NOT advicating giving education to the Military as an Institution but inducting (esconding) military individuals (i.e. reaonably eduation, lots of free time, huge budget) to the task of teaching. The difference, I hope, is clearer now. Sure I would like everyone writing her to leave hatwe are doing and teach in village schools... but that is not likely to happen.... however, having Havaldars and Subedars (who usually have very high social respect in their communities) put in a few years ofteaching in their on villages is a titally doable proposition... the key here (and this is unusual for me) is pragmatism. What will they teach? They will teach aalif, bay, paay (which I suspect many of us do not remember but am confident that these soldiers do). Though no amount of repetition seems to get the point across, let me repeat it once again.... I am not suggesting the education can be given to the Military as an Institution.... but to induct Military individuals as teachers in village schools (BTW, do people know that Faiz Ahmad Faiz was a Military officer!).

As to inducting young people similarly I do not think it would work. It was tried first in the 1960s and then again in the early 1980s ... each time you could actually get money for teaching and credit towards BA/BSc. Did not work then and will not work now for a simple reason.... the youth are the exact wrong set for something like this because they are (and should be) ambitious... want to do bigger and better things all the time. For people near retirement (as in my proposal) the opposite is true.... now is the time for kaar-i-sawab, returning to the community.... what better way to return to ones community than to teach in the village primary school where you went as a child?

..... ghar say masjid hai buhat dour, chalo youN kar laiN
..... kissi routay howay baachay ko haNsa kar daikhain

@@@@@ The mosque is too far from my home, so let us do this instead
@@@@@ Why don`t we try to place a smile on the face of a little child!

SUB: Syed Ahmed: ``What do we plan to do, make them drill the poor kids to death, teach them the wonders of absolute conformity?``

I think Adil does not really mean this. Given the constraints, this is perhaps one way of doing things. It is tragic that he has suggested the option but then these are not the best of times ... surely, not the age of reason ... I suppose, the real issue is that what the hell is one supposed to do with the military? How do you make them useful? My view is that they should be used to facilitate law and order ``within`` the country - education, particularly lower education, should be accomplished by changing the basis and nature of the ``home.`` And I believe that should be carried out by educating and empowering the women.

Sub: focusing the Military establishment
on the education sector.


Reminds me of the lion trying to raise a lamb.
This is quite possibly the most @#$R%%#% solution,
I ever come across. Armies are trained to kill, destroy, pillage & plunder - not to train impressionable minds. Innovation, creativity and independent thinking are an anthema to the military mind.( except perhaps in staff colleges).
What do we plan to do, make them
drill the poor kids to death, teach them the wonders of absolute conformity ?
What is this, job justification for the archaic military establishment. I bet it would be a lot more cost-effective to train new teachers.

Every hear of the oxymoron - army intelligence.

Re. Syed Ahmed

I do not seek ``federalist`` solutions ... solutions by local government are government solutions and that is what I am calling for.

I distrust the government as much as the next guy.... I just happen to distrust the market more. What I can simply not comprehend is why there is such a reaction to my saying that government should be forced to do what is it`s job? For a bunch of government-bashers we sure like making life for government even cosier than it now is!

Also, can someone please tell me any place where basic education has been primarily left to the market sector... it certainly does not happen in the US, not in Europe, not in any other bastion of capitalism I know of!

Re. Waqas`s statement: ``The implication that the military can do more for the poeple than the industry can only come from an acedemic.``

There is NO such implication in anything I have written. (Though I do believe that Industry will never do anything for ``people``, only for profit... but as far as the argument at hand goes, that`s niether here nor there!)

Re: Adil Najam
;I am still horrified at the nievity of those who ;seek market solutions to policy problems.... why ;should we let
; government off the hook by saying that ;education should not be their job....

As orphans of the tyranny of misguided federalism many would disagree. Market solutions to policy problems are efficient ( perhaps not moral -= but effective) . Certainly they can be augmented by the morality ( or immorality) of society aptly represented by government. The Educational sector does not require federalist solutions, they demand local solutions, perhaps governed by local municipal or district councils.
Many in the intelligensia prefer federalist solutions, because it gives them them opportunity to implement their ideas and in the process keeps the gainfully employed :-).

George Washington
``Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment
should it be left to irresponsible action``

Don`t have time for my usual long diatribes but just one quick point... I am not suggesting that we have the Military RUN schools.... no more Hasanabdals and Pittaros for me.... what I am suggesting is that here we have a HUGE reasonably educated workforce without any real work... why not put them to work? I am talking about the Havaldars and Subedars... people who have a lot of respect in their villages and areas and are fairly educated (Intermediate level) to TEACH in village schools (maybe as an early retirement inducement).... I am not suggesting merging the Ministry of Defence with the Ministry of Education... merely that its time that we get something back for all the money being spent on the military.... this may be the only REAL way of cutting the defence burden... for a change I am being the realist here!!!

I think the notion that Safwan describes is EXACTLY right. However, I am not looking the the military to solve our problems... only that since so many of our problems are rooted in the fact that after paying for defence there is precious litle left for anything else, so it is time we made the military EARN its keep!

I am still horrified at the nievity of those who seek market solutions to policy problems.... why should we let government off the hook by saying that education should not be their job.... it is not I but those who think that the private sector will ever do anything for the marginalized (meaning those who cannot pay top buks) who are being idealistic.... Alas the magic of the invisible hand... like all other magic.. is but a sleigh of hand!

As to the benefits of education adn social development that is a very long and deep discussion and although I disagree with the World Bank in its direct correlation between the two the benefits cannot be discounted.. for example, 6 years of education for the girl child in South Asia brings down the TFR by one.... what alone is well worth the investment....

As for not sending MY children to a military run school.... who on this forum will ever send their children to real Pakistani schools anyway (not the so-called elitist ones practicing apartheid!) ;-)

Enough for me for now.... I guess this has become long despite my originally stated intention!!!

There was an article on a report on primary education in last year`s India Today. (I will have to dig up the references if anyone is interested). Basically, the researchers found that poor parents were willing to send their sons and daughters to school and most children had ample time (bonded labor, child labor notwithstanding) to be able to attend school. The problems were numerous: some schools only existed on paper; some teachers hardly ever showed up for work; some schools were being used by the local big-wig as a toilet or a drawing room; some teachers did not teach,....well, you get the picture.

I wonder if such a study has been done for pakistan and if so, what are the conclusions.

By the way, good article, except I really dont think getting the militray involved is the answer. I would personally never send my child to a military run school!

I liked the military suggesstion because teh army would be doing somethimg worthwhile. They are good administrators, a case in point is the Army Welfare Trust which looks after a cement plant, a pharm,a project a bank etc., all doing very well with Fin. Ins bending over backwarfds to finance them. The problem is that this will lead to an authoritarian system of education. As far deployment of resources is concerned it is an excellent suggestion. Another way could be if each educated individual made an effort to teach another. The statement could become part of the annual tax returns with some incentives for the teacher. Proof? Maybe just the tax-payers word?

Adil,

Actually I thought it would be less dangerous than letting them ``educate.``

In principle, hypothetically speaking, I agree with your idea. It cannot hurt if ``selected`` individuals are entrusted the task of educating. Given that they usually do have roots in villages and perhaps even command respect. However, it would be much better if they performed the task of ensuring that ``education`` by ``enhanced`` conventional means proceeded without interference. So, the same ``selected`` educationists could be employed for facilitating rather than orchestrating/conducting the education process.

Moreover, isnt it high time that we stopped looking towards the military to solve our social problems? It is a counter-productive approach and inconsistent with your usual idealism.

Safwan... I agree that the role of the military needs to be diminished.... that`s the idea here... lets put them to something contructive for a change!

Re. using the military as police... WOW. Now that`s REALLY dangerous.... that`s not diminishing their role its expanding it to the ultimate!!! Isn`t that what happens in political emergencies??? Do you really want to give that power to the military? Hauling in kids who are out of school!!! Now that is another draconian idea....

Everyone is entitled to playing a little hookey now and then... if your school police had been operating in my school days I would have spent even more time behind bars than I did ;-)

More later

Your idea regarding using the ``armed forces`` for something is novel. Your earlier comment, `` ..This house was destroyed brick by brick by brick, with each one of us having a hand in the dismemberment. Maybe, it needs to be rebuilt the same way,`` is perhaps a more appealing option. We all need to contribute. The role of the armed forces needs to be diminished rather than enhanced. They have had the opportunity to run or should I say ruin the country for far too long and the best contribution they can make now is to ensure that civilian, democratic governments keep getting elected. Actually, in my opinion they should be made to do the job of our Police.

For whatever it is worth, we need to switch the powerbase. And address the ``education`` problem via increased awareness. More than 70% of the population is illiterate because (a) they dont truly comprehend what they are missing and (b) there are vested interests and extraneous reasons to keep them that way. If the armed forces must be used then it should be to ensure that no child under 15 is out on the streets during school hours and no one is ever denied education. In addition, the only drastic measure that should be taken is to educate the women, in villages, in cities, in everywhere. The rest should follow.

We should be able to progress faster and educate ourselves faster if the women are empowered. Am I alone with this opinion?

Couldn`t agree more!
As I pointed out in my earlier comments on Educational Apartheid, Pakistan and India are the the only countries in the world with a really high ``aala taaleem`` to primary education ratio - which is done at the expense of basic education.
What makes more sense - that many people learn how to read and write - a simple enough task to accomplish, or that one person goes to a third rate university, after which he/she is unemployable!

Anita