Man or mouse

Nice Article,

Yes I agree that educated, independant professional desi women will have higher expectations of their husbands. This would be only be natural how many mothers who have a ``Catch`` of a son seriously consider average looking (or below average) girls that have nice natures? Their definition of a ``Aachi`` larki is a beautiful, easily dominated and not ``theez`` girl. Personally I think these days the mothers don`t even care what the girl`s domestic skills are as long as she is beautiful. It was back in the old days that domestic skills and such actually mattered.

The reason why a educated desi girl will want one who matches her in education (or betters it) isn`t just for status etc, it`s so she can ``bond`` with him at an intellectual level. This ability isn`t of course limited to guys with graduate degress, however in our arranged marriage society, it`s very difficult to find out otherwise in a matter of a meeting or two, so hence the requirement that he must have a Master`s etc happens because this is more of an assurance.

Why would a smart girl want to marry a male ``airhead``?

Of course there are countless marriages of very intelligent men to pretty airheads, maybe they just don`t expect any mental stimulation from their wives... That their friends fill that need.

Who knows? Besides it`s very easy for a third person to say ``she isn`t married yet because she`s picky`` however that`s a simplistic view, there are invariably numerous other circumstances that combine to lead to this.

Regards

Fozia Zaidi

I am getting to enjoy this discussion, Let us first define the context of our discussion,
- Middle/Upper Income families with educated parents. Granted the sample set reflects
a small percentage of the Pakistani population, but I assume that many of the female
posters to the chowk fall in the same category. Perhaps I live in a bubble, but
with the exception of a few dysfunctional idiots, most men I know donot expect their wives to
be domesticated chattel. Secondly the ``Beti ka Bojh`` might be true in low income families,
it is certainly not applicable in middle class Pakistan. Even then the ``cliche`` has more to
do with maternal categorization ( Read ``Female`` as in Amma). I have found the fathers to be more
cautious and apprehensive in martrimonial circumstances than the women-folk.

Educated professional desi women ( assumption Engineers/MDs/Phds/MBAs)
in contrast to other cultures have a stronger sense of independence and single-mindedness,
particularly the ones where the mother was in a subservient position. They are ready
to reverse the patriarchial cliche `` Main Kamate hoon, to mere hamayshaa chalayee gee``,
Consequently the want to assume the commanding position in a marriage, - as evidenced
by the desire of strong emancipated women to have subservient husbands. The problem is that
the very same women, if willing to moderate their stands can hopefully find reasonable men.

Marriages are rarely about degrees or pedigrees, they are about compromise, sensitivity,
reciprocity and hopefully about love. UNcompromising individuals - particularly educated
women need to have the maturity to realise that academic or professional accomplishments
have little to do with domestic happiness and tranquility - or even raising a family.
They cannot hold a houshold hostage over their earning potential, much like earlier
generations of men did. This sort of rationale has created a sizeable backlash in the
eligible pakistani male category against educated Pakistani professional females. Just
look at the number single ( female) of MD`s, USMLE`s, MBAs and Engineers searching for
potential mates..

Biologically speaking, it is natural for the mother to raise the children in their formative
years, so why cant an MD take a break from work or perhaps reduce her workload to raise
the offspring. Why is pursuing a carrer for an MD much more important than that of a man
pursuing carpentry - I always assumed marriage was about equity in a relationship.
and why do women assume that giving up the workplace is a big sacrifice - when raising
kids, what are your priorities ???

THe alternatives are very clear, If you cannot devote time to kids, donot have them.
If you want subservient husbands, look for courtship in a matriarchial culture, like the
Malays or the Keralites for example or remain single or in a non-commital relationship
like many of our american friends do.

House-husbands are rarity in the US landscape and probably non-existent in the Pakistani
culture, trying to convert a rigid Patriarchial culture into an amazon one is probably
not possible, - perhaps there is a middle ground, that is what emancipated independent
desi professional women need to define within the context of our social and cultural value
system.

Until then, the Praveen`s of our culture will lament their fate.........

Syed Ahmed`s quote:

``The whole problem with desi relationships in general and marriages in particular, is that both parties enter such relationships with strong
preconcieved notions. The boy is often advised to maintain the ``upper hand`` in the marriage, wheras
the female is throughly engendered with techniques to foil the aforementioned situation.
Consequently, one invariably notices the tug of war in desi marriages in the post-honeymoon period. Unfortunately more often then not, it is the Praveens of our time - the more accomplished individuals have the unfortunate corollary of being completely rigid and inflexible. In order to reverse the wrongs of the preceeding generation , the Praveens of our time overact often times with disastrous consequences for all parties involved. ``

Syed Ahmed, lets be very clear here - when it comes to `` women being engendered with techniques to avoid men getting the upper in marriage`` we are talking about a very small minority of Pakistani families. The vast majority of Pakistanis are just too eager to marry their daughter off to the first rishta that arrives - no questions asked, because they are perceived as a burden, ``beti ka bojh``.

The women we are talking about here are the hyper-educated ones, and yes, perhaps they do ``over-react`` - but you let the men off too lightly - these women react to the objectification and model wife and servant role expected by Pakistani men, most of whom appear to be making two polar choices when it comes to marriage - either they want the ``real gori varitey Amreeki``, or the docile home-grown variety from back home. The educated, emancipated desi woman is left stranded. And she is not ready for compromise. Also, she is trapped in the kind of thinking that says she can only mate with somebody who is ``superior`` to her. This thinking is very flawed. As more and more of our women get educated and independent (as has happened in the West), for them (assuming that they want to get married)it will be increasingly hard to find men that are even as educated. If men can marry housewives, whats wrong with women marrying househusbands? As an aside, I have a couple of American women MD friends who are happily married to a carpenter and a firefighter. When they decided to have children, their husbands were more than willing to become full-time fathers while they continued their very busy jobs.

If one isn`t into this ``my husband has to be rich, have a very cool job, a tall, macho guy to impress all my friends with``, a whole new world will open up. Of course, we`ll still have to find Pakistani guys whose egos can stand powerful, liberated Pakistani women.

Anita

The whole problem with desi relationships in general and marriages in particular, is that both parties enter such relationships with strong preconcieved notions. The boy is often advised to maintain the ``upper hand`` in the marriage, wheras
the female is throughly engendered with techniques to foil the aforementioned situation.
Consequently, one invariably notices the tug of war in desi marriages in the post-honeymoon period. Unfortunately more often then not, it is
the Praveens of our time - the more accomplished individuals have the unfortunate corollary of being completely rigid and inflexible. In order to reverse the wrongs of the preceeding generation , the Praveens of our time overact often times with disastrous consequences for all parties involved.

This is particularly relevant in US based desi marriages. The differnce is the expectations is so great and the parties so inflexible - hence the horrendous divorce rate amongst Pakistani expatriates in the US. The really suprising part is that the highly educated the individuals ( applies to ABCDs) - have more uncompromising stances?. Conversely US educated ( fresh of the boat desis) ( at least the males that I know) are usually very conscious of their cultural shortcomings - hence they tend to be more flexible. Consequently the general trend of marrying spouses from abroad is quite popular, much to the chagrin of parents of ABCDs.

So girls, the MD`s are going to be shafted by the HMO`s and the Computer Engineers will eventually be relocated to Canton China in the next downturn. So find a nice BA or BComm and be happy. And the superflous shortage of ``good boys``
will dissipate.

Thank you Syed Ahmed, for getting the point of this story. No, Miss Parveen is not perfect, neither is her mother, nor the potential suitors. All can be faulted for focusing on the wrong things. Miss Parveen wants a suave, well-educated man who lives in an upper class area. The men she meets are looking for an easily-dominated woman who will make her husband the center of her life, to the exclusion of all else, who will cook, clean, bear and raise children, and wait upon him hand and foot. This has resulted in the situation that Miss Parveen finds herself in. The kind of men that she wants to marry do not want to marry her. However, mature feminism demands that women get out of this mind-set of wanting to only marry men who are as educated or more educated than they are - otherwise they are falling in the same old hierarchal trap, the man one marries has to be somehow more ``accomplished`` or at least as ``accomplished`` as oneself. Why should we use that standard? Why shouldn`t we be free to marry anyone less accomplished? What`s wrong with a Phd woman marrying a BComm guy - the answer should be - nothing! Isn`t what`s important in a marriage caring for, and understanding each other?

Anita

Is Praveen really not asking for too much ?? .Of course like everyone else
Praveen is looking for a ``better deal``. In her case despite the fascade of simplicty,
she is probably looking for Lancelot de Luc on a white charger with Arthur`s
pedigree and the security of his fortune in dubloons. Despite general condemenation,
of our over zealous pursuit, of social mobility, - We still look for MD`s
Phd`s or that one lucky vadera.
- what of the poor BComm, What is wrong with a
Phd girl marrying a Bcomm boy??
Is academic ability the only measure of social and intellectual compatibility?? .
We find numerous instances of Phd or MD boys marring Bsc or BComm girls . But why do we
hear Ammas lamenting the sad fate of the MD or Phd girl who could not find a ``sona
Phd Munda`` and had to settle for a BA boy :-)).

The fact has more to do with laws of supply and demand in Pakistan. Women in general
are better educated in Pakistan then men - and lots of them. And the search for a
female partner in Pakistan has more to do with a girls physical attributes then her mental capacity.
Conversely, the ``girls`` family is more interested in financial security, even if the boy
is a babboon ( mind you he must be a tall babboon :-)).

Having recently visited Pakistan, I can still fondly reminisce my aunt`s laments ``ladkhi ko
paach saal DOW mein barbad kiye, kis leyain , aab to choola phook rahee hain`` , My cousin
on the other hand seemed perfectly happy with her situation, and when I inquired about her predicament
she angrily retorted `` Ammi, to aaisay he khayte rahtye hain, Ammi nay to poori zindagi hospital
ko dedicate kar di thee, I dont want my kids to go through the same ``. In retrospect, Perhaps Praveen`s mother was
always at home.

Having said that, I think Pakistani feminism is in its adolescent ``bra burning`` phase, - where the inherent contradictions
of society all need to have coherently rational explanations or else let us blame the men. Therefore this
newly attained ``freedom`` - partly because of education, econnomic realities and perhaps immigration, has resulted
in the single-minded pursuit of career opportunities especially for the ``first generation`` educated girls. This
must be tempered by the realties of life and of their enormous contributions in raising a family. Perhaps
this over-reactionary phase will pass, and ``professional`` independent pakistani women will have the maturity
to deal with the dimmer sex in a much more subtle manner. ``Main to apanay husband se zada paisay banate hoon, es liye
mayree he hamashaa chalaye gee`` - a common pakistani man`s nightmare. or else `` Main to professional ladki hoon,
main khana nahin bannaoon gee``.

As always, this does not apply to the vast majority of Pakistani women, who still struggle through life as chattel.

Praveen`s plight and those of other educated women who want understanding and mature men, must realize that they
must also let go of their pretentions and cultural attitudes, they cannot get the best of both worlds, - they
cannot conform to the roles relegated to them ( more often than not by their own mothers) , and expect emancipation
on the generosity of the opposite sex, or worse yet become a feminazi.

I like the test :0} good one!

MAK, rest assured, the MMMPI is not a real test - I made it up to illustrate what the whole marriage process is like, in Pakistan - its like you are filling out a questionairre - you have this, you don`t have that. We have reduced it to a series of questions, forgetting the individuals involved.

There is a real test called the Minnessota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) which is used by psychologists and psychiatrists to judge a person`s personality. There`s nothing about women in there.

Anita

Very well written Anita. I believe women have equal rights to select their partners which is evident in our religion as well. I dont know about this MMMPI test as who designed and what at extent it could be applicable but it sounds designed for western women and their needs. Since Parveen graduated in US she adopted the MMMPI test requiring the same score as any american woman could expect. The test should have flexibility/option to be opted by any woman of any culture or region. Otherwise if Parveen keeps continue to select her partner using MMMPI test she could hardly find suitable match in her race or she could try in another race.

Re:Anita.

Nice. She epitomizes all that is wrong with society. While she may not want to admit it, she herself is seeking to be married. Life for her till then is on a standstill. She is not happy, obviously. How pathethic it is to be such a woman-educated, financially independent and yet disatisfied. I would love the day when women started living lives for themselves and not for mother, father and friends. Love sought is nothing compared to when it startles you and stops you into sudden wonderment and delight.

Being unmarried is not a death sentence. And for the woman who makes marriage her ultimate goal searching for the perfect man (which btw does not exist anymore than a perfect woman does) she is lost to happiness.

sabrina.

Anita,
Good, thought provoking article!!! Yet another one.

I believe Parveen is not asking too much, She is merely asking a very basic right, a right of respect and attitude with her Test she gives her suitors. And she is well within her rights, to turn down applicants, much to the emotional chagrin, and dismay of her ``conventional`` mother. If Parveen had been any less educated and courageous a person, she would have perhaps settled for a match years ago, and would have ended sacrificing her life, her goals, her individuality, on the first person that might have com eacross, and failing the supposed test with flying colours, just so that the society would not point a finger and remind her of her place as only a home-maker and nothing else.

There are lots of Parveen in our society, specially in the West, but the choice they have made to live by their own code of ethics, about selection of a life mate, might mean more mice will keep on getting ripped open, in the quest of that fairytale mouse, who might turn into the handsome prince with an impressive 99% percentile rating on the MMMPI Test..


Perhaps we as a society needs to give the chance for the girl to evaluate a boy, for a change, so that they too must feel they are in a mandi as well, as the writer mentioned.... A questionannire to be filled out by the prospective grrom to be i snot a bad idea. It might prevent some people for just coming around for tea in a starngers place, today, and in another stangers place tomorrow, without the intent of actually doing any business, and putting up false hopes in the houses they visit. It really is a sordid affair, as far as i can tell, but then there is no other way, supposedly in our society for match making practices..

People take a sadistic pleasure in our society to remind those less fortunate in the matters of the heart etc, that time is quickly fleeting,and that one should get hitched with the next available starnger who shows up at the doorstep.. What these insincere people overlook is the ensuing problems of an unlikelyu match, perhaps resulting in divorce or a split up, as being realatively a minor hitch.. In addition the people who make the greatest hue and cry in pressuring up the poor parents of these Parveens, are the ones who simply refuse to lend a helping hand to change the status quo, even if they have acquantances, or people, they might actually introduce to solve a girls problem. Nobody wants to take any responsibility in such issues, as they claim they dont want the consequences on thir neck. What they are actually saying beihind these innocent words is `` We are actually quite happy to see you struggling with this problem , of having unwedded daughter, and we shall continue to remind you and haunt you, but will never extend a helping hand forward``... mere hypocrites of our society.

Anita, nicely illustrated plight of the ``over-educated woman`` of Pakistan .........

Kind Regards

Asim