A Tree of Water

I know that this is a pretty old article but reading about it gives me goosebumps. Why isnt there any tolerance in this world at all? Everyone in this world has their own individual personality. We just cant take the law in our own hands if we deem someone to be a misfit. Those who do that are hypocrites.

Re: Afrasiyab

I agree with your rationale. It is impossible to legislate morality. At the present, the mainstream society`s perception of the issue is flawed by a general sense of ignorance. Most politicans, beholden to special interest groups, are not eager, nor do they posses a political will, to realistically deal with the situation. The present American political system is too polarized, between the religious right and the ultra liberal left, to compromise on an agenda that seeks to address the problem in any meaningful manner.

Also, while in college, I found many similarities between how the gays and lesbians were treated and how minority international students were treated. There was always a social glass barrier.

The playing field is and was, by no accounts, even.

Re: FerozK

Thanks for your comments. As for your question about separate but equal treatments of gays and lesbians, I believe in most places in the world they are treated most unequally. Most states and nations do not have anti-discrimination legislation protecting gays and lesbians from being fired form their jobs, denied housing, denied school admission, etc. Gays and lesbians do consider themselves a political minority in the same sense as Blacks did (and still do) before civil rights legislation was enacted in the US during the fifties and sixties.

Re: BG

Good point about the distinction between political-civil rights and socioeconomic rights. Activists in the US need to become more aware of the importance and neglect of the latter.

As for an article on my life as a gay man, I`m working on it. I did submit a gay-themed short story a few months ago, but the Chowk staff must have decided not to publish it. I`m assuming there`s not much interest, but I`ll try again.... (thanks for your interest, though :))

Re: afrasiyab

I agree with you that attitudes and civil behavior cannot and should not be legislated. Education is the surest way to eliminate prejudice and bigotry.

(btw, I apologize from stepping aside from the Science and Religion discussion earlier - I was pretty burned out on the topic after having spent two weeks vehemently arguing with a Christian fundamentalist on the independence of morality vis-a-vis a belief in a God. Perhaps we can continue the discussion later on a future related topic.)

Re: NAKIR

MUNKIR must have ``refused`` you again. Try some

paracetamol next time!

Re: M. FAISAL

The world eagerly awaits the moment when you`ll emanate (from wherever it is that you emanate) your next pearl of wisdom!

Re: AA

Heartfelt appreciation for your finding ``some of it`` good!

Ifti:

Welcome to the Club, Mr. Nasim.

``People should avoid making denigrating, dehumanizing statements or jokes about gays and lesbians, realizing that they have the same effect

as racist and sexist jokes in stigmatizing an entire group of people.``

Are you proposing a LAW here or do you suggest a social movement to change people`s minds. If the former is the case, I will have to disagree however the latter coarse of action appears to be more reasonable. I think that is the one you are refering to here. Please confirm.

re kafir,

very useful response to ferozek`s question.

this is a little tangential, but i just wanted to bring it to your notice: the US does not recognize basic human rights like right to food, housing, education, health (economic and social rights) as `human rights`. even though they are a part of the declaration of human rights. there has been a tradition in the west during the cold war to ignore `economic and social rights` and focus on the civil and political rights of people mostly because it was a way to attack communism.

most of the rights you mention for gays and lesbians would fall under the category of civil and political human rights and the right to non-discrimination.

there is growing recognition that civil and political rights and economic and social rights are indivisible and can be achieved simaltaneously. i share your pessimism about pakistan, but not because it cant be done -- the achievement of human rights for the people -- but because the political will to do it, does not exist.

i really think we need that article from you now (about your own experiences as a gay man).

regards

Re: Kafir

Thanks for you fine analysis on the effective resolution of this problem.

From reading your comments, my understanding is that gays and lesbians are treated as a political minority in the country, and though they have the same rights, those rights are not enforced legally in most circumtances. Correct?

By ``seperate, but equal``, I meant that gays and lesbians are considered equal, but in a seperate and lower defination of the word, ``citizens``. Is that you understanding too?

Thanks

Feroz,

If I were to formulate such a plan, I would include the following points of action on the political/legislative front:

1) Decriminalize homosexuality. Many states within the US and most foreign countries have laws prohibiting homosexual acts, the violation of which often results in imprisonment or even death.

2) Enact legislation forbidding discrimination in housing, employment, school admission, etc., based on sexual orientation.

3) Extend health care and financial benefits to same-sex domestic partners on the same level as those for opposite-sex spouses.

4) Legalize gay marriage. Rather than trivializing marriage, as many opponents argue, gay marriage actually strengthens the institution by allowing all members of a society to participate in it. It also gives gay people a social incentive to form life-long monogamous relationships, which is good for society in general.

Aside from legislative action, I would also support individual and personal awareness of gay issues, such as:

1) Education. In sex education classes in schools, students should be taught about the nature of homosexuality, its innateness and immutability in a certain percentage of a population (4-6%). It should not be seen as a disease or psychological aberration, but as a natural aspect of human diversity.

2) Stereotypes. Gay people are just as diverse as straight people and practice very diverse lifestyles. Behavior ranges from very masculine to very feminine in both men and women. There is no standard gay personality, lifestyle, or belief system. People should avoid making denigrating, dehumanizing statements or jokes about gays and lesbians, realizing that they have the same effect as racist and sexist jokes in stigmatizing an entire group of people.

3) Relationships. People should understand that gay love is of the same quality as straight love. It`s not just about sex as many make it out to be. It encompasses all attractions: physical, emotional, intellectual, and moral/spiritual.

Of course, such a course of action is only forseeable in developed Western countries which have a tradition of protecting individual rights. Countries like Pakistan, where even the most basic human rights like health care, a basic education, political and religious freedom, and the like are denied, cannot hope to enact gay rights legislation until a serious transformation occurs in their societies. Until then, gays and lesbians in those societies will have to keep living in the closet, in fear and in shame.

I don`t understand your question about separate but equal treatment of gays. Could you please clarify or elaborate upon it?

Thanks,

K

Re: Kafir

Here is a hypothetical for you. If given the opportunity to present a plan that would seek to readdress the injustices suffered by gay and lesbians, how and what would you present in such a plan ? Also; do gays and lesbians see themselves, in a politcal sense, as being disenfranchised ? Are we talking of an ``equal but seperate`` treatment ? or not even that.

Congratulations, Chowkidars, for having the courage to print this.

Homophobia and violence towards gays and lesbians will continue to thrive unless people of conscience, both straight and gay, speak out against this injustice.

As a gay man, I have to deal constantly with snide remarks, venomous looks, contempt, and hatred from homophobics. Living in gay-friendly San Francisco, though, I can easily dissociate myself from people that can`t stand the fact that I exist. Most gays and lesbians don`t have this luxury. They have to endure severe psychological and physical stress their whole lives, often compounded by spiritual despair resulting from a belief that God despises them for who they are. Is it any wonder, then, that gay teenagers have triple the suicide rate of their straight counterparts?

Why does it take a brutal murder of an innocent like Matthew Shepard for people to take notice of the hatred towrds gays and lesbians that exists in our societies? When will straight people realize that the fruit of their snide remarks, of their denigrating jokes, of their self-righteous foaming-at-the-mouth religious condemnation, is the pistol-whipped, smashed-in head of a young man?

re ifti

thank you for sharing your work and your thoughts with us. the message is indeed powerful and something we need to hear.

look forward to more.

though the poem could`ve been stronger...i support the cause it is written for....

nakhir and m faisal,
Senseless juxtaposition and utter garbage? I agree the poem isn`t fabulous, but some of it good, and more importantly it is written by someone who feels passionately about the subject. So if you feel this discourse is senseless, then remove your sensible self from it; don`t attempt to invalidate the experiences of persecution. If you haven`t experienced the hate, then don`t help perpetuate it.

Ifti:
Would like to see some urdu stuff. (?)

This piece is utter garbage...

Just the person I was looking for. I am very interested in learning about the experiences of gay and lesbian people in Pakistan. Do you have this info?

I won`t try to comment on the poem because despite my efforts, never can tell the difference between great poetry and the really poor one.

Hello Roger Waters. No mention of the machine eh? It is fascinating to see that an actual event inspired this much senseless juxtaposition. Naipaul would have certainly said: ``Promise me you won`t write poetry anymore, promise me!``

Regards,

Faisal