Saeed Jaffer December 1, 1998
#15 Posted by moid on January 24, 1999 9:13:28 am
MQM may be behind patronizing of thugs and dacoits. But isnt it natural for a political force in Pakistan in almost every city and town? What has Mian and his associates done in Punjab after coming to power? And what has Benazir done? The basis problem lies in the lack of law and order in the country.
Associating any rise of lawlessness in Karachi to Mohajirs is correct as far as MQM represents them. But the real problem shared by all communities is same: No regard for law and order in Pakistan.
And why should we ignore the state-sponsored pluderings? By Rangers, by Army, By imported and unrepresentative polic? Their plundering has sort of justified plundering by others.
Associating any rise of lawlessness in Karachi to Mohajirs is correct as far as MQM represents them. But the real problem shared by all communities is same: No regard for law and order in Pakistan.
And why should we ignore the state-sponsored pluderings? By Rangers, by Army, By imported and unrepresentative polic? Their plundering has sort of justified plundering by others.
#14 Posted by anadir on December 8, 1998 10:26:26 am
Mak:
Your humble apology speaks alot of you.
Saeed has painted the picture of Karachi; he is not passing a judgement on any group. Hope earnestly that other careless readers will also show fortitude that Mak has demonstrated.
A Nadir
Your humble apology speaks alot of you.
Saeed has painted the picture of Karachi; he is not passing a judgement on any group. Hope earnestly that other careless readers will also show fortitude that Mak has demonstrated.
A Nadir
#13 Posted by Aliya on December 7, 1998 7:48:42 pm
Re: MAK
What an unusually refreshing act, an unabashed honest apology, shows your strength.
Re; Saeed
Great topic you chose there.
What an unusually refreshing act, an unabashed honest apology, shows your strength.
Re; Saeed
Great topic you chose there.
#12 Posted by MAK on December 6, 1998 3:41:46 pm
Re: Obaid
I apologize for being such harsh. In fact, I skimmed the article and couldn`t pay attention on the depth of the subject and the reason had been my stressful studies these days. Now I re-read the article and commend for raising the very subtle tpoic. Thanx for your mentioning and my apology is inevitable. Doctor Saeed sahib please accept my apology.
regards.
MAK
I apologize for being such harsh. In fact, I skimmed the article and couldn`t pay attention on the depth of the subject and the reason had been my stressful studies these days. Now I re-read the article and commend for raising the very subtle tpoic. Thanx for your mentioning and my apology is inevitable. Doctor Saeed sahib please accept my apology.
regards.
MAK
#11 Posted by obaid on December 5, 1998 7:57:12 pm
re: Mak:
Dont you understand plain english?? The author is critiquing the people who blame a certain ethnic group alone of all crimes and expect that group to commit all crimes.
Dont you understand plain english?? The author is critiquing the people who blame a certain ethnic group alone of all crimes and expect that group to commit all crimes.
#10 Posted by MAK on December 5, 1998 9:39:59 am
Very disgraceful article. Doctor Sahib, didn`t you have any remorse blaming only an ethnic group? Please respect of you and others.
#9 Posted by anadir on December 4, 1998 1:33:23 pm
Dear Dr. Jaffer,
Your narration of the the incident of robbery that took place at your home in Karachi is riveting. You have nicely reflected on the current trend in Karachi.
Like you I am also not entirely sure who is behind the chaos and pendimonium that has gripped this great city. But whosoever is behind the grisly violence occurring in this city should be severely repraminded and justice must not be selective.
Politicians and rulers of Pakistan including the current ones have not been able to combat with terrorism. The failure is related to several factors, but incompetence, economic collapse and corruption seem to be the root of problems.
Thanks for broaching a very important topic and hopefully people will involve in a purposeful debate rather than involving in frivolous leg pulling.
Sincerely,
Nadir
Your narration of the the incident of robbery that took place at your home in Karachi is riveting. You have nicely reflected on the current trend in Karachi.
Like you I am also not entirely sure who is behind the chaos and pendimonium that has gripped this great city. But whosoever is behind the grisly violence occurring in this city should be severely repraminded and justice must not be selective.
Politicians and rulers of Pakistan including the current ones have not been able to combat with terrorism. The failure is related to several factors, but incompetence, economic collapse and corruption seem to be the root of problems.
Thanks for broaching a very important topic and hopefully people will involve in a purposeful debate rather than involving in frivolous leg pulling.
Sincerely,
Nadir
#8 Posted by KP on December 4, 1998 1:33:23 pm
In Karachian context, what is the difference between thieves and dacoits? I wonder, are there any Hindi speaking dacoits? You know, the `hidden hands`! How about Gujrati speaking dacoits?
#7 Posted by shafqat on December 4, 1998 12:19:49 pm
MQM had ethnic foundations and fascist overtones, and such parties tend to self-destruct. To be fair to MQM, however, it was only responding to a pre-existing parochial climate. For the last several decades, ethnic identity has been the dominant means for staking a claim to one`s piece of Pakistan. MQM, which arose from the disaffection of an Urdu-speaking minority that felt disenfranchised, was only trying to emulate other ethnic groups in Pakistan that have flourished by stressing their ethnic identities.
Regardless, criminals need to be punished irrespective of what language they speak.
Saad
Regardless, criminals need to be punished irrespective of what language they speak.
Saad
#6 Posted by Godot on December 4, 1998 7:02:03 am
I hope you are just being hard on the MQM. You might just as well. MQM has done more damage to the Urdu speaking people than the worst enemy of them could. By turning Pakistan into distinct and separate groups of Punjabis, Mohajirs, Sindhis, Pathans, Balochis, not to forget others, the seeds of evil have been planted. Pakistan needs a NATIONAL leader who can go beyond petty distinctions to uproot what have been sewn, or it does not have a future.
#5 Posted by saeed jaffer on December 4, 1998 3:16:30 am
Clearly, my article is being mis-interpreted.
As I said in my article, I know little of Karachi politics. I certainly do not blame any specific ethnic group or party for the current state of lawlessness in Karachi. What I thought was interesting was how everyone else in Karachi does.
Rehan (Reply#1 RR) says:
``With all due respect Doctor Saheb, associating a
language with the acts of a few does not suit
an educated person. ``
You may be right ... but it seems that many such educated persons are doing just that.
Rehan (Reply#1 RR):
``Not only that, you are basically degrading all non-Mohajir ethnic groups by saying this as it implies that, in the past, all criminals belonged to non-Urdu speaking groups. That is not true.``
You are right it most certainly is not true. I did not mean to imply this. If you notice, I only mentioned one other non-Urdu group: Sindhi vaderas.
Rehan (Reply#1 RR):
``about nine years ago. There were crimes in the city before and there were criminals belonging to all linguistic groups.``
I never said that other linguistic groups were not responsible. When I lived in Karachi 10 years ago, Pushto-speakers were often accused of criminal activity.
Rehan (Reply#1 RR):
``Discussion of PML versus MQM politics, the nature of how criminals and bandits run Pakistan, etc.``
I was hoping that my article did not sound like an attack on the MQM. Personally, I feel that their ideals at re-establishing rights for a minority that has been ignored for 50-odd years make sense! Hey, I`m part of that minority myself.
Bina (Reply#4):
``So sorry ...``
Unfortunately, it appears we must make apologies to almost every family in Karachi.
Bina (Reply#4):
``the general consensus in Sindh is that most of the thieves actually speak Punjabi``
What percentage of the national population speaks Punjabi as a first language? A majority I believe. What pecentage of Sindh? I don`t know.
As I said in my article, I know little of Karachi politics. I certainly do not blame any specific ethnic group or party for the current state of lawlessness in Karachi. What I thought was interesting was how everyone else in Karachi does.
Rehan (Reply#1 RR) says:
``With all due respect Doctor Saheb, associating a
language with the acts of a few does not suit
an educated person. ``
You may be right ... but it seems that many such educated persons are doing just that.
Rehan (Reply#1 RR):
``Not only that, you are basically degrading all non-Mohajir ethnic groups by saying this as it implies that, in the past, all criminals belonged to non-Urdu speaking groups. That is not true.``
You are right it most certainly is not true. I did not mean to imply this. If you notice, I only mentioned one other non-Urdu group: Sindhi vaderas.
Rehan (Reply#1 RR):
``about nine years ago. There were crimes in the city before and there were criminals belonging to all linguistic groups.``
I never said that other linguistic groups were not responsible. When I lived in Karachi 10 years ago, Pushto-speakers were often accused of criminal activity.
Rehan (Reply#1 RR):
``Discussion of PML versus MQM politics, the nature of how criminals and bandits run Pakistan, etc.``
I was hoping that my article did not sound like an attack on the MQM. Personally, I feel that their ideals at re-establishing rights for a minority that has been ignored for 50-odd years make sense! Hey, I`m part of that minority myself.
Bina (Reply#4):
``So sorry ...``
Unfortunately, it appears we must make apologies to almost every family in Karachi.
Bina (Reply#4):
``the general consensus in Sindh is that most of the thieves actually speak Punjabi``
What percentage of the national population speaks Punjabi as a first language? A majority I believe. What pecentage of Sindh? I don`t know.
#4 Posted by Bina on December 4, 1998 1:20:41 am
Saeed -
So sorry to hear that your family had to go through such trauma.
Unfortunately, Pakistanis are just used to blaming members of ethnic groups for their problems - as if the ethnicity makes them more prone to committing crimes. Ten years ago the most feared culprit was the Sindhi daku. Now it`s the urban Muhajir, the Afghani Taliban, the Punjabi bureaucrat, and a whole host of other caricatures.
Sindhi waderas, I can tell you from personal experience, are still as vilified as they were ten years ago. In fact all feudals are seen as the greatest criminals of the country. They get the blame for everything, and the popular opinion is that if you eradicate that particular class, the whole nation will rise out of the depths of hell and turn into Dubai! Everybody bays for an agricultural tax, while nobody finds it fashionable to tax industrialists.
By the way, the general consensus in Sindh is that most of the thieves actually speak Punjabi.
So sorry to hear that your family had to go through such trauma.
Unfortunately, Pakistanis are just used to blaming members of ethnic groups for their problems - as if the ethnicity makes them more prone to committing crimes. Ten years ago the most feared culprit was the Sindhi daku. Now it`s the urban Muhajir, the Afghani Taliban, the Punjabi bureaucrat, and a whole host of other caricatures.
Sindhi waderas, I can tell you from personal experience, are still as vilified as they were ten years ago. In fact all feudals are seen as the greatest criminals of the country. They get the blame for everything, and the popular opinion is that if you eradicate that particular class, the whole nation will rise out of the depths of hell and turn into Dubai! Everybody bays for an agricultural tax, while nobody finds it fashionable to tax industrialists.
By the way, the general consensus in Sindh is that most of the thieves actually speak Punjabi.
#3 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on December 4, 1998 12:13:07 am
This is a wonderful attempt to explain SOME
of what is rotten in Karachi.
My uncle had his car robbed 3 times in 6 months.
During the last attempt the robbers put this
retired old gentlemen in the hospital.
He is an ``Urdu`` speaking ``Muhajir``. The young
people who beat him up and robbed him were also
``Urdu`` Speaking Tilyars.
So what is a robbery between us Tilyars anyway?
Wake Up. Something major is rotten in our own house. Yet we blame the ``outsiders`` for everything. They are not all sinners and obviously
we are not all saints.
Maybe we need to relearn some ``Tameez`` from the
Sindhis!!
Ras
#2 Posted by temporal on December 3, 1998 6:52:51 pm
Yaar daakter sahib:
Siyassi tajzia nigari say parhaiz karaiN
Should I be surprised to read a treatise informing me the percentages of robbers in Lahore who speak Saaraiki, Pahaari, Punjabi etc?
Or those in Peshawar who speak Hindko, Pushto, Farsi?
By the way. Amir ul Chor Daku and his coterie. of the biggest robbers in Pakistan speak Punjabi. I would not blame the province or the language for their gross shameless exploitation.
regards,
Siyassi tajzia nigari say parhaiz karaiN
Should I be surprised to read a treatise informing me the percentages of robbers in Lahore who speak Saaraiki, Pahaari, Punjabi etc?
Or those in Peshawar who speak Hindko, Pushto, Farsi?
By the way. Amir ul Chor Daku and his coterie. of the biggest robbers in Pakistan speak Punjabi. I would not blame the province or the language for their gross shameless exploitation.
regards,
#1 Posted by rehanrizvi on December 3, 1998 6:52:51 pm
With all due respect Doctor Saheb, associating a language with the acts of a few does not suit an educated person. We complain about how American media stereotypes Muslims by doing the same type of generalizations.
Not only that, you are basically degrading all non-Mohajir ethnic groups by saying this as it implies that, in the past, all criminals belonged to non-Urdu speaking groups. That is not true. I am urdu speaking myself and was a resident of Karachi until about nine years ago. There were crimes in the city before and there were criminals belonging to all linguistic groups. Mohajirs are not angels that in a population of 10 million they will not have their share of bandits.
As far as MQM is concerned, they have made a lot of blunders. And one of them was awarding membership to hoodlums and extortionsists. But to blame the entire party, which by the way has as much support in Karachi as PML in Lahore, for all the crimes committed in a bustling megapolis is naive to say the least. PML rules punjab and yet no one blames it for the crime spree that has gripped the province in the recent years.
As a matter of fact more crimes are committed by the bandits in uniforms. The police and the army has done more harm to the city than MQM has been blamed for. In case you are wondering, I have never been a member of the party nor do I plan to. MQM does share a lot of blame for what`s wrong with Karachi, but rather than a cause for it, rather MQM itself is a symptom of what`s wrong with the entire political system in Pakistan. Criminals and bandits have been ruling the country since its inception. People look up to the leaders as role model. What do you expect the result should have been?
Rehan.
Not only that, you are basically degrading all non-Mohajir ethnic groups by saying this as it implies that, in the past, all criminals belonged to non-Urdu speaking groups. That is not true. I am urdu speaking myself and was a resident of Karachi until about nine years ago. There were crimes in the city before and there were criminals belonging to all linguistic groups. Mohajirs are not angels that in a population of 10 million they will not have their share of bandits.
As far as MQM is concerned, they have made a lot of blunders. And one of them was awarding membership to hoodlums and extortionsists. But to blame the entire party, which by the way has as much support in Karachi as PML in Lahore, for all the crimes committed in a bustling megapolis is naive to say the least. PML rules punjab and yet no one blames it for the crime spree that has gripped the province in the recent years.
As a matter of fact more crimes are committed by the bandits in uniforms. The police and the army has done more harm to the city than MQM has been blamed for. In case you are wondering, I have never been a member of the party nor do I plan to. MQM does share a lot of blame for what`s wrong with Karachi, but rather than a cause for it, rather MQM itself is a symptom of what`s wrong with the entire political system in Pakistan. Criminals and bandits have been ruling the country since its inception. People look up to the leaders as role model. What do you expect the result should have been?
Rehan.
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