Loyal to Pakistan? Why?
Ahsan Ahmed July 2, 1999
#154 Posted by Studebaker on July 23, 1999 1:39:29 am
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#153 Posted by Studebaker on July 23, 1999 1:39:29 am
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#152 Posted by Truth on July 22, 1999 4:16:05 pm
Studebaker:
You are now criticizing India to increase awareness of people about minority problems - this is the action of a patriotic Indian. Anybody who criticizes with the idea of helping India improve is a true Indian. More than a person who keeps quiet and allows people to trample the rights of others. Like a mother who scolds her son to make sure he learns some lessons for the future, you should keep scolding India. Do it out of love and even out of anger but dont do it out of hate.
You are now criticizing India to increase awareness of people about minority problems - this is the action of a patriotic Indian. Anybody who criticizes with the idea of helping India improve is a true Indian. More than a person who keeps quiet and allows people to trample the rights of others. Like a mother who scolds her son to make sure he learns some lessons for the future, you should keep scolding India. Do it out of love and even out of anger but dont do it out of hate.
#151 Posted by iconoclast on July 22, 1999 10:01:38 am
Re: STudebaker
This kind of reasoning,,, i understand and even appreciate......
Iconoclast
This kind of reasoning,,, i understand and even appreciate......
Iconoclast
#150 Posted by Studebaker on July 21, 1999 5:53:06 pm
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#149 Posted by Studebaker on July 21, 1999 5:17:02 pm
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#148 Posted by mnkhan58 on July 21, 1999 11:08:30 am
The following is reproduced for greater circulation:
The News
Tuesday, July 20, 1999
Rabi-us-Sani 06, 1420 A.H.
Evenings in Dhaka
Anees Jillani
I had always wanted to visit East Pakistan. There was a time at school when I was even learning Bengali but the whole programme got scrapped
after General Niazi surrendered on December 16, 1971. I remember my father weeping after hearing of the surrender on the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC); Radio Pakistan till then was still working on the hypothesis that the Indian forces were on the verge of surrendering in Calcutta.
My father for a while, like many other Pakistanis, went through a metamorphosis: he switched from Gold Leaf to K2; began wearing khaddar and started a regular programme on television trying to raise people`s spirits. However, things soon returned to their old pattern and life was back to normal.
I was, therefore, excited when India`s General Meneakshaw`s daughter, Maja, invited me, along with some other very distinguished Pakistani
friends, to attend a meeting in Dhaka. I was surprised to find out that one needed a visa for going to our former wing but a friend in the
Bangladesh High Commission issued the visa in record time and free of charge. Then came my Biman flight from Karachi to Dhaka. I unfortunately chose a smoking seat and so ended up sleeping at the end. It was literally sitting in an inter-city bus in Bangladesh with passengers fighting with the stewardesses and water being served in a
strange looking jug. I am unsure till now if the water was filtered.
However, the first shock I got after landing was to find out that the Bangladeshi taka was stronger than our rupee: there are 48 takas to a dollar as opposed to 53 rupees in case of Pakistan. I had always assumed that Bangladesh would be an extremely congested and poor place. But as one of my teachers had once said that one should never assume because the break up of the word is `ass-u-me`.
Dhaka is Bangladesh`s biggest city with a population of around ten million. The only thing which strikes a visitor is the phenomenal number of cycle rickshaws. I was told that there are more than one million in Dhaka alone. As a result, the Dhaka population refuses to walk and prefers to use this mode of transportation even for short
distances. And the traffic, as a result, is totally chaotic. It moves at a snail`s pace following the pedalled rickshaws.
However, the economy is moving at a better pace. Bangladesh`s foreign exchange reserves at around two billion dollars are double those of Pakistan and its population growth rate stands at 1.73 per cent as opposed to 2.7 per cent in the case of Pakistan. Its literacy rate is 52 per cent while ours is only known to our able education minister but is probably somewhere in the thirties. About 97 per cent of the people have access to safe drinking water while only 79 per cent have this
facility in Pakistan. So, is Bangladesh better off being independent?
There are no two opinions about this in the country. I was in Dhaka for only three days as the fourth day was taken care of by a nationwide
strike called by the former Premier Khaleda Zia. However, I found time during those three days to visit Saddarghat in old Dhaka where you can
see the river and the famous ferryboats constantly docking and leaving for other cities. Ferryboats are a popular and cheap mode of transportation and one can only find out the extent of the calamity
after looking at their size if any of them sinks. I was taking photographs at the dock surrounded by a small crowd which, of course, one should get used to in South Asia when suddenly a 40-plus person asked me where I was from. Upon hearing the magic word Pakistan, he instantly shouted at the peak of his voice that ZA Bhutto was corrupt and that he had destroyed the country. I kept quiet but he continued shouting and insisted upon telling me that he was a freedom fighter and
what atrocities my country`s military had committed in East Pakistan. I was in Saddarghat with an Indian who had just returned to India after finishing his PhD from Harvard. Frankly, I was totally relaxed despite the belligerent attitude of the fellow because I always felt at home in Dhaka but my Indian friend, Vikram, was getting nervous with the swelling crowd. In order to ease Vikram`s fears, since he was lecturing
both of us, I told the fellow that this guy is not from Pakistan but from Delhi and that he helped you with your liberation. The fellow, who found time at the end of his shouting spree to inform us that he was now a banker, however, was undeterred and kept yelling at Vikram while I took photographs.
Vikram was not amused. He took a boat ride while I just walked on the dock. Another person asked me where I was from and upon my telling him Islamabad, he nostalgically told me that he had served with the Pakistan military in Kharian and Jhelum cantonments. Another crowd gathered and now people wanted to discuss Kargil and Kashmir. By that time, Vikram had returned and I jokingly told them that he is the bad guy who has taken away Kashmir from us. Upon hearing that he was from
India, one of the guys swayed his hand in front of his neck gesturing the chopping of one`s neck and uttered the word India. Vikram was now really nervous and rushed out asking me why were they anti-India when ``we had helped them`` with their liberation?
Bengal has always been a politically volatile region and the present Bangladesh society is no exception. The whole nation appears to be
polarised between pro-India and pro-Pakistan factions. Wherever I went, people sympathised with me for Pakistan losing the final of the World
Cup 1999. Some even stoned vehicles after the defeat. As opposed to them, there are others like the banker we met who are extremely bitter
about the brutalities committed by Pakistanis.
I spent the evenings at the Dhaka Club where the locals reminisced for hours about the inhuman acts committed by the Pakistanis from March to December 1971. People are still pained by those memories and I was at a loss to explain that how could we have killed tens of thousands of our own countrymen and yet not bothered to hold a single person accountable for those actions.
I also visited the Muktijuddha Jadughar Liberation Museum which is a private museum containing artifacts relating to the liberation struggle. One thing that instantly struck me was the fact that their heroes are our villains. They have pictures of their brave freedom fighters who killed some government official or a prominent politician
when we still hold the latter in greater esteem. Bangladesh traces its liberation struggle to Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah`s speech in
East Pakistan where he declared Urdu to be the sole and exclusive language of Pakistan. This policy eventually led to the Language Movement of 1952 in which several Bengalis were killed and which agitation is now commemorated by a memorial in Dhaka.
East Pakistan is now history and the mistakes we committed there cannot be undone. What struck me while visiting the liberation sites of Bangladesh was the irony that we still are making exactly the same miscalculations and our attitude and approach towards several of our ethnic communities is no different. It is still not too late in the day
to stop and act with a more open and positive attitude. And one of the steps that we could undertake not to repeat the past blunders is to
make the Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report public and hold the people who led to Pakistan`s dismemberment accountable.
The News
Tuesday, July 20, 1999
Rabi-us-Sani 06, 1420 A.H.
Evenings in Dhaka
Anees Jillani
I had always wanted to visit East Pakistan. There was a time at school when I was even learning Bengali but the whole programme got scrapped
after General Niazi surrendered on December 16, 1971. I remember my father weeping after hearing of the surrender on the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC); Radio Pakistan till then was still working on the hypothesis that the Indian forces were on the verge of surrendering in Calcutta.
My father for a while, like many other Pakistanis, went through a metamorphosis: he switched from Gold Leaf to K2; began wearing khaddar and started a regular programme on television trying to raise people`s spirits. However, things soon returned to their old pattern and life was back to normal.
I was, therefore, excited when India`s General Meneakshaw`s daughter, Maja, invited me, along with some other very distinguished Pakistani
friends, to attend a meeting in Dhaka. I was surprised to find out that one needed a visa for going to our former wing but a friend in the
Bangladesh High Commission issued the visa in record time and free of charge. Then came my Biman flight from Karachi to Dhaka. I unfortunately chose a smoking seat and so ended up sleeping at the end. It was literally sitting in an inter-city bus in Bangladesh with passengers fighting with the stewardesses and water being served in a
strange looking jug. I am unsure till now if the water was filtered.
However, the first shock I got after landing was to find out that the Bangladeshi taka was stronger than our rupee: there are 48 takas to a dollar as opposed to 53 rupees in case of Pakistan. I had always assumed that Bangladesh would be an extremely congested and poor place. But as one of my teachers had once said that one should never assume because the break up of the word is `ass-u-me`.
Dhaka is Bangladesh`s biggest city with a population of around ten million. The only thing which strikes a visitor is the phenomenal number of cycle rickshaws. I was told that there are more than one million in Dhaka alone. As a result, the Dhaka population refuses to walk and prefers to use this mode of transportation even for short
distances. And the traffic, as a result, is totally chaotic. It moves at a snail`s pace following the pedalled rickshaws.
However, the economy is moving at a better pace. Bangladesh`s foreign exchange reserves at around two billion dollars are double those of Pakistan and its population growth rate stands at 1.73 per cent as opposed to 2.7 per cent in the case of Pakistan. Its literacy rate is 52 per cent while ours is only known to our able education minister but is probably somewhere in the thirties. About 97 per cent of the people have access to safe drinking water while only 79 per cent have this
facility in Pakistan. So, is Bangladesh better off being independent?
There are no two opinions about this in the country. I was in Dhaka for only three days as the fourth day was taken care of by a nationwide
strike called by the former Premier Khaleda Zia. However, I found time during those three days to visit Saddarghat in old Dhaka where you can
see the river and the famous ferryboats constantly docking and leaving for other cities. Ferryboats are a popular and cheap mode of transportation and one can only find out the extent of the calamity
after looking at their size if any of them sinks. I was taking photographs at the dock surrounded by a small crowd which, of course, one should get used to in South Asia when suddenly a 40-plus person asked me where I was from. Upon hearing the magic word Pakistan, he instantly shouted at the peak of his voice that ZA Bhutto was corrupt and that he had destroyed the country. I kept quiet but he continued shouting and insisted upon telling me that he was a freedom fighter and
what atrocities my country`s military had committed in East Pakistan. I was in Saddarghat with an Indian who had just returned to India after finishing his PhD from Harvard. Frankly, I was totally relaxed despite the belligerent attitude of the fellow because I always felt at home in Dhaka but my Indian friend, Vikram, was getting nervous with the swelling crowd. In order to ease Vikram`s fears, since he was lecturing
both of us, I told the fellow that this guy is not from Pakistan but from Delhi and that he helped you with your liberation. The fellow, who found time at the end of his shouting spree to inform us that he was now a banker, however, was undeterred and kept yelling at Vikram while I took photographs.
Vikram was not amused. He took a boat ride while I just walked on the dock. Another person asked me where I was from and upon my telling him Islamabad, he nostalgically told me that he had served with the Pakistan military in Kharian and Jhelum cantonments. Another crowd gathered and now people wanted to discuss Kargil and Kashmir. By that time, Vikram had returned and I jokingly told them that he is the bad guy who has taken away Kashmir from us. Upon hearing that he was from
India, one of the guys swayed his hand in front of his neck gesturing the chopping of one`s neck and uttered the word India. Vikram was now really nervous and rushed out asking me why were they anti-India when ``we had helped them`` with their liberation?
Bengal has always been a politically volatile region and the present Bangladesh society is no exception. The whole nation appears to be
polarised between pro-India and pro-Pakistan factions. Wherever I went, people sympathised with me for Pakistan losing the final of the World
Cup 1999. Some even stoned vehicles after the defeat. As opposed to them, there are others like the banker we met who are extremely bitter
about the brutalities committed by Pakistanis.
I spent the evenings at the Dhaka Club where the locals reminisced for hours about the inhuman acts committed by the Pakistanis from March to December 1971. People are still pained by those memories and I was at a loss to explain that how could we have killed tens of thousands of our own countrymen and yet not bothered to hold a single person accountable for those actions.
I also visited the Muktijuddha Jadughar Liberation Museum which is a private museum containing artifacts relating to the liberation struggle. One thing that instantly struck me was the fact that their heroes are our villains. They have pictures of their brave freedom fighters who killed some government official or a prominent politician
when we still hold the latter in greater esteem. Bangladesh traces its liberation struggle to Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah`s speech in
East Pakistan where he declared Urdu to be the sole and exclusive language of Pakistan. This policy eventually led to the Language Movement of 1952 in which several Bengalis were killed and which agitation is now commemorated by a memorial in Dhaka.
East Pakistan is now history and the mistakes we committed there cannot be undone. What struck me while visiting the liberation sites of Bangladesh was the irony that we still are making exactly the same miscalculations and our attitude and approach towards several of our ethnic communities is no different. It is still not too late in the day
to stop and act with a more open and positive attitude. And one of the steps that we could undertake not to repeat the past blunders is to
make the Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report public and hold the people who led to Pakistan`s dismemberment accountable.
#147 Posted by Truth on July 21, 1999 8:29:35 am
Studebaker:
Your attempt to distinguish yourself from Ahmed was a complete flop. He was not rejecting himself, he was rejecting Pakistan which is something distinct from his own self. Similarly, you were rejecting India which is something distinct from your own self. So on that score there is no difference between the two of you. But let me address some serious points you have raised.
You then made a point that you faced annhilation while he did not. It is apparent that you FEEL that you faced annihilation and it is also clear that Ahmed did not FEEL that he faced annihilation. So in this regard there is a difference between the two of you.
For a country to be true to its citizens: it must do two things - i) it must provide security to the extent that ii) its citizens FEEL secure. I am sorry that India made you feel so insecure. Ultimately, India will be judged on the feeling of security that its citizens feel. If yours is an isolated case of insecurity, then it is your problem and not India`s. If there is a widespread feeling of insecurity, that is India`s failing. If I, as an individual, can do or say anything to change that insecure feeling you have, I would be happy to do so.
You say that in your mind you still like India - you hate its fanaticism, communalism etc. I agree with that sentiment. Stick with India and together we will make it better.
Your attempt to distinguish yourself from Ahmed was a complete flop. He was not rejecting himself, he was rejecting Pakistan which is something distinct from his own self. Similarly, you were rejecting India which is something distinct from your own self. So on that score there is no difference between the two of you. But let me address some serious points you have raised.
You then made a point that you faced annhilation while he did not. It is apparent that you FEEL that you faced annihilation and it is also clear that Ahmed did not FEEL that he faced annihilation. So in this regard there is a difference between the two of you.
For a country to be true to its citizens: it must do two things - i) it must provide security to the extent that ii) its citizens FEEL secure. I am sorry that India made you feel so insecure. Ultimately, India will be judged on the feeling of security that its citizens feel. If yours is an isolated case of insecurity, then it is your problem and not India`s. If there is a widespread feeling of insecurity, that is India`s failing. If I, as an individual, can do or say anything to change that insecure feeling you have, I would be happy to do so.
You say that in your mind you still like India - you hate its fanaticism, communalism etc. I agree with that sentiment. Stick with India and together we will make it better.
#146 Posted by iconoclast on July 21, 1999 8:29:35 am
Re: Studebaker
``Iconoclast,i think i have read enough of your arguments to put Advani.MML Joshi,Balraj Madok,to shame.``
-- Please do me a favor and don`t associate me with these maniacs..
`` I never looked for sympathy not even your ``SECULAR`` system to protect me or provide.I am a survivor but that DOESNT make me insensitive to thousands of Indian muslims who are weak & weakened daily by a HOSTILE environment.
``
-- good for u... the fact is that all Indians have to be survivors irrespective of their religion.
`` Have you any idea about Bhagalpur,Meerut,recently & Jamshedpur,Calcutta,Rourkela,Sitamarhi,Jabbalpur
Aligarh,& many in small towns. ``
-- yes i do.. I am also aware of Hyderabad, coimbatore, Malappura, Ahmedabad, Bombay etc ., where we are the ones to be blamed.
`` The govt always minmises the figures for obvious reason. ``
-- We have an independant (actually minority favoring press) and they have always given a fair count..
``I dont know where you saw a riot where Hindus died leave alone in equal number?I dont want a single hindu to die,just make the police minority directed You can call the army if you dont trust the muslims in police force.
``
-- ever heard of coimbatore for a recent case...
``As for majority of Muslim lower middle class why should they have to leave.``
-- no we should not leave. rather we should put our heart and soul here and make this place better for us. Some of us have done just that and succeeded. But some other of us, have put their heart in Pakistan like u have done. but then, its ur choice.
`` Your Patel never laid that condition to Mt. Batten,whom he promised to give the british employees from the Indian coffer.While thousand died in famine in Bengal & Bihar.!
``
-- patel can rot in hell, for all i care.
`` As i said no body drove me out but the attitude that a middle class muslim in northern India would face in colleges,work place or neighbourhood JUST ISNT WORTH IT!``
-- u still are unable to give concrete evidence. Lately the situation is getting communalised thanks to the RSS and some muslims like u.....
``i can help them x45 or more as things are going with rupee devaluation,``
-- what do u think i do,,, or all the other hindus in America do... just what u do my friend. nothing special about u here.
``Again i am an exception who god blessed to succeed despite the unthinkable hurdles.``
-- good for u
``I would not apologize to India for iam not selfish,I support my relatives there,if millions of my inferior & junior Hindus can have best of both world why shouldnt a Muslim boy,try stopping me you wont be the first one.``
-- have u gone loco. what does the above para mean. why should i stop u. why should anyone stop u. U probably should be thankful to India for having provided u with this opportunity...even though u worked hard for it,.,.just like anyone else in India... nothing is handed in a platter to Indians unless they are rich (and religion does not matter a bit) ..actually the brahmins are the ones who are actually underprivileged. what with all these quota system and all. Not us or the other backward class hindus.
``I am not traitor but a FATAH,survivor and one day India has to apologize ``
-- yes, India has to apologize for Babri masjid, and little else. It is turncoats like u who have to think hard before u decided where to lay your hearts.
Iconoclast
``Iconoclast,i think i have read enough of your arguments to put Advani.MML Joshi,Balraj Madok,to shame.``
-- Please do me a favor and don`t associate me with these maniacs..
`` I never looked for sympathy not even your ``SECULAR`` system to protect me or provide.I am a survivor but that DOESNT make me insensitive to thousands of Indian muslims who are weak & weakened daily by a HOSTILE environment.
``
-- good for u... the fact is that all Indians have to be survivors irrespective of their religion.
`` Have you any idea about Bhagalpur,Meerut,recently & Jamshedpur,Calcutta,Rourkela,Sitamarhi,Jabbalpur
Aligarh,& many in small towns. ``
-- yes i do.. I am also aware of Hyderabad, coimbatore, Malappura, Ahmedabad, Bombay etc ., where we are the ones to be blamed.
`` The govt always minmises the figures for obvious reason. ``
-- We have an independant (actually minority favoring press) and they have always given a fair count..
``I dont know where you saw a riot where Hindus died leave alone in equal number?I dont want a single hindu to die,just make the police minority directed You can call the army if you dont trust the muslims in police force.
``
-- ever heard of coimbatore for a recent case...
``As for majority of Muslim lower middle class why should they have to leave.``
-- no we should not leave. rather we should put our heart and soul here and make this place better for us. Some of us have done just that and succeeded. But some other of us, have put their heart in Pakistan like u have done. but then, its ur choice.
`` Your Patel never laid that condition to Mt. Batten,whom he promised to give the british employees from the Indian coffer.While thousand died in famine in Bengal & Bihar.!
``
-- patel can rot in hell, for all i care.
`` As i said no body drove me out but the attitude that a middle class muslim in northern India would face in colleges,work place or neighbourhood JUST ISNT WORTH IT!``
-- u still are unable to give concrete evidence. Lately the situation is getting communalised thanks to the RSS and some muslims like u.....
``i can help them x45 or more as things are going with rupee devaluation,``
-- what do u think i do,,, or all the other hindus in America do... just what u do my friend. nothing special about u here.
``Again i am an exception who god blessed to succeed despite the unthinkable hurdles.``
-- good for u
``I would not apologize to India for iam not selfish,I support my relatives there,if millions of my inferior & junior Hindus can have best of both world why shouldnt a Muslim boy,try stopping me you wont be the first one.``
-- have u gone loco. what does the above para mean. why should i stop u. why should anyone stop u. U probably should be thankful to India for having provided u with this opportunity...even though u worked hard for it,.,.just like anyone else in India... nothing is handed in a platter to Indians unless they are rich (and religion does not matter a bit) ..actually the brahmins are the ones who are actually underprivileged. what with all these quota system and all. Not us or the other backward class hindus.
``I am not traitor but a FATAH,survivor and one day India has to apologize ``
-- yes, India has to apologize for Babri masjid, and little else. It is turncoats like u who have to think hard before u decided where to lay your hearts.
Iconoclast
#145 Posted by Zehra on July 21, 1999 6:52:31 am
omar1974: have ye left shakespeare in favor of the germans? no more tirades on the latest topic laced with shakespeare shamelessly and at times incorrectly laced in? it will be our loss.
(do not take that as encouragement of any sort to start on that tip again..please)
come butt heads with me again...or have you found bigger game?
abolutions, rituals and somthing else,
z. rizvi
(do not take that as encouragement of any sort to start on that tip again..please)
come butt heads with me again...or have you found bigger game?
abolutions, rituals and somthing else,
z. rizvi
#144 Posted by Studebaker on July 20, 1999 7:05:53 pm
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#143 Posted by iconoclast on July 20, 1999 8:56:56 am
Re:
So poor Studebaker was persecuted in India because he was a Muslim and hence he fled that goddamn country . And we have a glee-ful Omar with his Taliban tendencies giving Studebaker a cheerup and empathises with him. Ok,,, so all is well with this picture.
Let me tell u this. Like all minorities i would defenitely like to live in a country where people i am most similar with (religion, culture, language) are a majority. Some kind of feeling secure i`d say. Given that, yes, i would love to live in a Tamil, Muslim yet modern, Secular country...something like Jinnah`s vision for Pakistan. But then on the other hand , when i look at it rationally, i am also sure that i would prefer to live as a minority in a economically better country which is secular and protects me and my identity rather than stay in the aforesaid fictitious nation . A reason as to why the Omar wannabes are in the USA.
Going back to India,, if we suppose that religious persecution is really a problem, then why are the christians in India not complaining as much as some of the Muslims do,,,or why are the Sikhs or the Jains or the Parsis complaining . ? Is it because they don`t have a christian, sikh , jain , parsi renegade, terrorist state speaking out for them shedding crocodile tears. ? India has its share of problems. But the Majority of Indians want to remain secular , want to remove religion from politics and education and economy.
If only India was truly a fascist nation where the Hindu majority was terrorising the minority (christian, Muslim, sikh, etc) as in Pakistan , then pray tell me, moronic dumbheads, why are many of the same minority who are sufficiently well off and could afford to lead an economically good life abroad , choose to stay back in India. As an example, Wasim Akram does not want to go back to pakistan after he lost the world cup and stayed back in England. But Azharuddin goes back to India after he loses . The indian filmworld, jewellery business, leather exports , granite exports and more such industries are dominated by Muslims ... these muslims can well afford an american education and a job abroad and a green card. if India was that despicable these guys would have packed their bags years ago... whya re they staying back and prospering. They stay back because they know that religion and economics are divergent in India. They know the true cause s of religious riots in India and they know how to keep themselves safe.
An aside, in all religious riots in India, equal number of Hindus and Muslims die. How is that possible , if the state has a hand in it ?
I am not going to trumpet any more about secularism. Because mullah clad morons, and mullah wannabes would not understand that. Pakistan was created for these people. So Studebaker,, India is bad for you...go to pakistan. Once we cleanse our country of your types and then the Shiv Sena types we can live better
Iconoclast
So poor Studebaker was persecuted in India because he was a Muslim and hence he fled that goddamn country . And we have a glee-ful Omar with his Taliban tendencies giving Studebaker a cheerup and empathises with him. Ok,,, so all is well with this picture.
Let me tell u this. Like all minorities i would defenitely like to live in a country where people i am most similar with (religion, culture, language) are a majority. Some kind of feeling secure i`d say. Given that, yes, i would love to live in a Tamil, Muslim yet modern, Secular country...something like Jinnah`s vision for Pakistan. But then on the other hand , when i look at it rationally, i am also sure that i would prefer to live as a minority in a economically better country which is secular and protects me and my identity rather than stay in the aforesaid fictitious nation . A reason as to why the Omar wannabes are in the USA.
Going back to India,, if we suppose that religious persecution is really a problem, then why are the christians in India not complaining as much as some of the Muslims do,,,or why are the Sikhs or the Jains or the Parsis complaining . ? Is it because they don`t have a christian, sikh , jain , parsi renegade, terrorist state speaking out for them shedding crocodile tears. ? India has its share of problems. But the Majority of Indians want to remain secular , want to remove religion from politics and education and economy.
If only India was truly a fascist nation where the Hindu majority was terrorising the minority (christian, Muslim, sikh, etc) as in Pakistan , then pray tell me, moronic dumbheads, why are many of the same minority who are sufficiently well off and could afford to lead an economically good life abroad , choose to stay back in India. As an example, Wasim Akram does not want to go back to pakistan after he lost the world cup and stayed back in England. But Azharuddin goes back to India after he loses . The indian filmworld, jewellery business, leather exports , granite exports and more such industries are dominated by Muslims ... these muslims can well afford an american education and a job abroad and a green card. if India was that despicable these guys would have packed their bags years ago... whya re they staying back and prospering. They stay back because they know that religion and economics are divergent in India. They know the true cause s of religious riots in India and they know how to keep themselves safe.
An aside, in all religious riots in India, equal number of Hindus and Muslims die. How is that possible , if the state has a hand in it ?
I am not going to trumpet any more about secularism. Because mullah clad morons, and mullah wannabes would not understand that. Pakistan was created for these people. So Studebaker,, India is bad for you...go to pakistan. Once we cleanse our country of your types and then the Shiv Sena types we can live better
Iconoclast
#142 Posted by OMAR1974 on July 20, 1999 6:20:20 am
Studebaker : I`d ignore Icon`s comments as being in any way `representative` of Indian muslims daily realities. To my knowledge most of them don`t have close Hindu family relatives unlike Icon, and thus lead both a sheltered existence and are afflicted by a life of blindness towards the way India really treats its muslims (forgive me my negative presumption). I`m sorry Icon, in this matter i truly don`t (for once you may think) mean any disrespect towards you, but your continual attempt to represent your version of Indian muslims`s plight as the only `correct` version smacks of RAW propaganda. Now that Studebaker reveals his experiences in India, suddenly you say his are an exception (how convenient), and project him as an outcast. How easy for you to do this to your countryman, rather than listening to the whys of his problems/personal experiences in India. Studebaker, i`d be more than happy to LISTEN to WHY AND HOW YOU PERSONALLY came to this opinion. Tell us your PERSONAL experiences that lead you to make such generalized statements please.
sincerely,
Omar
sincerely,
Omar
#141 Posted by iconoclast on July 19, 1999 2:45:02 pm
Re: Studebaker
OK.. even giving u the benefit of doubt...that u did face annhilation in India,,, and u hate India because of that what is ur point. ? Go get a Paki citizenship , if that is all that u want ..We Indians don`t care a damn about a renegade Indian Muslim/Hindu/whatever. And if u want to make the world believe that Muslims are the sufferers , and that the secularism in India is not real...then you are just one of those pakis crying that the kargil infiltrators were not their soldiers. The world is not a dumb place today. People know what is happening at any given place. And the world has acknowledged that while Pakistan is a fundamentalist , islamic country, India is a multi-religious, secular nation. For every muslim like u, there are scores of Muslims , rich and poor who have loved India and still love the place as much if not more than even a Hindu does. I am not going to waste time quoting Muslim`s statistics. If any Muslim feels uncomfortable living in India ,,, he or she has two options, make it comfortable by exercising their rights, or get the hell out. I chose the former,,, u the latter. it is only a matter of choice. I am happy with mine,,,, if u are too... then there is no issue here
Iconoclast.
OK.. even giving u the benefit of doubt...that u did face annhilation in India,,, and u hate India because of that what is ur point. ? Go get a Paki citizenship , if that is all that u want ..We Indians don`t care a damn about a renegade Indian Muslim/Hindu/whatever. And if u want to make the world believe that Muslims are the sufferers , and that the secularism in India is not real...then you are just one of those pakis crying that the kargil infiltrators were not their soldiers. The world is not a dumb place today. People know what is happening at any given place. And the world has acknowledged that while Pakistan is a fundamentalist , islamic country, India is a multi-religious, secular nation. For every muslim like u, there are scores of Muslims , rich and poor who have loved India and still love the place as much if not more than even a Hindu does. I am not going to waste time quoting Muslim`s statistics. If any Muslim feels uncomfortable living in India ,,, he or she has two options, make it comfortable by exercising their rights, or get the hell out. I chose the former,,, u the latter. it is only a matter of choice. I am happy with mine,,,, if u are too... then there is no issue here
Iconoclast.
#140 Posted by fauzan on July 19, 1999 1:36:13 pm
The Country`s a SCREW UP--ADMIT IT AND LEAVE IT.
Unfortunately, your arguments have long been heard and talked about by millions. Everyone admits the country is a screw up and I don`t think anyone gives a damn any more. Quit bitching about the country, leave it the way it is, lead your life in the US, enjoy, party and move on. Pakistan is Pakistan, it ain`t ever changing. You know Desis are very emotional people and can`t take criticism very well. This topic has been beaten to death--give it a rest and write about something that you can change ok.
Your obersvations are all true-unfortunately, I think it`s all genetics, and that ain`t changing. Maybe we should give Pakistan to the Jews and have them fix it up right? Yeah baby, yeah----Jewadellic!!!
Down and Dirty in NYC
FOZ
Unfortunately, your arguments have long been heard and talked about by millions. Everyone admits the country is a screw up and I don`t think anyone gives a damn any more. Quit bitching about the country, leave it the way it is, lead your life in the US, enjoy, party and move on. Pakistan is Pakistan, it ain`t ever changing. You know Desis are very emotional people and can`t take criticism very well. This topic has been beaten to death--give it a rest and write about something that you can change ok.
Your obersvations are all true-unfortunately, I think it`s all genetics, and that ain`t changing. Maybe we should give Pakistan to the Jews and have them fix it up right? Yeah baby, yeah----Jewadellic!!!
Down and Dirty in NYC
FOZ
#139 Posted by aziz786 on July 19, 1999 7:43:28 am
OMAR1974
Re: My Bill
Shall I just forward it c/o Fataquie? Afterall, he does claim to know where u live! :)
You know the problem of Paki-land is also how we all just simply CAN`T understand why Paki-land isin`t
EVERYBODY`s favorite vacation spot. Boggles the mind. Lets see now, official prohibition of alcohol, mind altering
drugs, gambling, bikini clad-or entirely unclad womyn frowned upon, many activist competing religious groups bent
upon spread of their version of the `true faith` and reconversion of muslims to Islam with patronage from the govt,
greedy customs officials looking for every opportunity to have their palms greased, heat, electricity blackouts during
summer, lack of entertainment, holier-than-thou attitude of the native populace, ethnic problems, sectarian violence,
political vendettas, gender discriminatory laws, pollution, flies, disgusting state of public health and schools (Including
public defacation), state controlled T.V, corruption at the highest levels and throughout the state bureauracy, to say
nothing of the lastest possibility of death by nuclear vaporization that one can add to the list which is by no means
complete. Yes, and its amazing just why its not everybody`s favorite vacation paradise now isin`t it! Can`t begin to
imagine why!
Let me add to that list,
No public bathrooms!.
Men can still get away with the number 1 (thanks to abundance of ``Teema`` (sand pebbles) but poor women!.
Re: My Bill
Shall I just forward it c/o Fataquie? Afterall, he does claim to know where u live! :)
You know the problem of Paki-land is also how we all just simply CAN`T understand why Paki-land isin`t
EVERYBODY`s favorite vacation spot. Boggles the mind. Lets see now, official prohibition of alcohol, mind altering
drugs, gambling, bikini clad-or entirely unclad womyn frowned upon, many activist competing religious groups bent
upon spread of their version of the `true faith` and reconversion of muslims to Islam with patronage from the govt,
greedy customs officials looking for every opportunity to have their palms greased, heat, electricity blackouts during
summer, lack of entertainment, holier-than-thou attitude of the native populace, ethnic problems, sectarian violence,
political vendettas, gender discriminatory laws, pollution, flies, disgusting state of public health and schools (Including
public defacation), state controlled T.V, corruption at the highest levels and throughout the state bureauracy, to say
nothing of the lastest possibility of death by nuclear vaporization that one can add to the list which is by no means
complete. Yes, and its amazing just why its not everybody`s favorite vacation paradise now isin`t it! Can`t begin to
imagine why!
Let me add to that list,
No public bathrooms!.
Men can still get away with the number 1 (thanks to abundance of ``Teema`` (sand pebbles) but poor women!.
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