After the defeat

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Re: narayan

Compliment appreciated :)

Narayan, concerning the mixture of facts and opinions, I am the first one to admit of that guilt, but I try to refrain from using personal intitution in my articles. I think you might be confusing me with Omar, because I do not remember ever using the examples of LCA or the Arjun as down playing Indians. My only oblique referance to the topic was the lack of an advanced trainer for the Indian Air Force as primarily being resposible for the high rate of IAF crashes and not necessarily the calibre of pilot, as a few people on Chowk have hinted.

Concerning the Arjun MBT, there was an interesting article on Arjun vis a vis the production of Pakistan`s Al Khalid MBT by an Indian analyst in an Indian newspaper. If you are interested, please send me your e-mail and I would be happy to forward it to you. The article, in dealing with MBTs, was highlighting the difficulties of Indian defense R&D to fulfill the country`s defense requirements.

I agree with your hope and maybe, the two nations can join their resources together, instead of against each, in a common space program. The greatest dismay to me about India and Pakistan is the potential lost in futile hate mongerings, which dominates our relations.

Yes, I am aware of the Indian chowkwallahs, but I can not please both the Indians and Pakistanis each time I write my articles. My articles are a reflection of how I ``see`` the situation based on the facts, past historic examples etc and what I infer from those factors. People can agree with or disagree with my articles if they want and there is nothing I can do, but defend my position/viewpoints as best as I can!

As for my age, I am 34 years old and well past the chest thumping stage! Ironically, I was coming to the same conclusion with you, based on your interacts, that all Indians are infalliable and are the eptiome of intelligence, while all Pakistanis are totally worthless. My friend, I have no problems on our mutual rights to disagree on a given set of facts, but I do have a problem when that disagreement is turned into a personal problem.

I imgine that you will be reacting with zest to my article about the Indian experince in Kashmir and why the present Indian policy is counter-productive to Indian interests in Kashmir. :)

Thanks for the technical info. I, too, have seen pictures of B-17s landing with huge pieces of the airframe missing, but can an aircraft still fly with damage to the avionics etc. Those WWII bombers were designed with multiple reduncies in them and to take any amount of abuse, which the Germans could dish out. I think that the ability of an aircraft to surivive a missile hit has to depend if it was designed to absorb the impact or not.

Narayan, as an aside, we can debate this issue till the cows home and leave again, but it will not settle the question of where that plane was when it was shoot until the Indians release their ground radar data showing the position of the MiGs at the time of the shooting and Pakistan releases the flight plan showing why the aircraft was so close to the Indian border.

But, we will never know that would we? In the mean time, we will continue to hate and mistrust each other. What a waste of all the young lives lost due to this incipent hatred which dominates our lives!

Re: Ferozk Reply #: 101

``...bovine scatahology`` !

I like that !

Ok. I apologize for the ``personal`` attack.

However, I was merely returning the compliment. Your replies and your Military articles at Chowk show along with genuine facts also your personal opinions and other fanciful artifacts of your imagination. When you belittle the LCA or the Arjun MBT, it is to me an equally ``personal`` attack.

The LCA is the only asian aircraft that is being designed from the ground up. And all that on a shoe-string budget. India has its severe limitations - but we`re doing well all the same.

Understandably, no pakistani ever talks about the Indian Space program. For here is success of Indian technology on a grand scale. A few months ago ISRO went commercial, launching sun-synchronous satellites for Korea and Germany. Hopefully we would be launching the GSLV within a year, InshaAllah !

And soon perhaps pakistan would ask us to launch their geostationary satellites - because we would have the cheapest launcher in the market !

Feroz, when you write your articles at chowk, you are off-course aware that a good number of Indians would be reading them. I suspect you have a strong streak of ``macho-giri`` (perhaps you are in your 20`s !) that leads you to finally prove that all things Indian are worthless while pakistan is a shining example of noble manhood. A little psychology would help improve your writing and readership. Good luck !

As a technical aside:

Yes, a plane CAN fly with a broken or missing wing. It depends. Basically a huge unbalanced rolling moment and somewhat lesser unbalanced yaw is produced here, which can be balanced with judicious application of the rudder and elevators - assuming that the rudder and elevators have enough surface area to produce the required moment. I have seen a WWII photograph of a British Lancaster Bomber flying sideways with half of its port wing blown off by german flak. The photo was taken from above, apparently by another Bomber in the formation. Also see the japanese war movie ``Zero``. It shows a fighter plane flying with a completely missing port wing !!!

And Yes, a twin-engined plane can fly with one engine out of action. In fact one of the certification tests for twin-engined planes is the ability to take-off using only one engine.

Re: anarayan

Hey, if you want to persit in thinking that the aircraft was gathering intelligence on Indian sites, please be my guest, because I am not going to try to convince you of something, which do not want to believe in!

If you disagree with my assesments, please say so without resorting and denigerating my comments by refering to them as bovine scatahology. In the past I have disagreed with some of your comments, but I never retorted to personally be-littling you as source of those comments, because my disagreements were with your comments and not you personally. In this case, you are turning this into some sort of a personal grudge match, which is highly unfortunate.

Anarayan, during college I had serious dicussions with a gentleman who had served as a lecturer at the US Army`s War College, who also happened to be my professor in a few classes I took on American strategic studies and I participated in host of seminars on national security issues. Hence, though I am not an expert, I am quite knowledgeable in military affairs and combat tactics.

Yes, the Atlantique is reconnaissance aircraft, but could you, as an expert on aerospace engineering, please educated me how it was supposed to glide after having an engine blown off and with possible structrual damage to the wing?

My reference to its glide capabilities was not meant to highlight its flight duration or how long it could stay in the air, but to suggest that with one engine destroyed, and structurally damaged, it could not fly too effectivily for a long period of time.

You are absolutely right as to its flight characteristics and its flying endurances, but sir, I ask you how could it glide after being shot at with a missile? If memory serves me right, even the U-2 piloted by Francis Gary Powers could not glide after it was shot at by a Soviet SAM and it too crashed and hence, the reason why Powers parachuted and was caught by the Soviets and was the sole reason why the Soviets backed away from the peace talks in Vienna that year!

Yes, I readily conced the point to you that gliding ability is related to the wingspan, but how is an aircraft going to glide on one wing only? For that matter, I do not think that even a glider could glide on one wing only or if it was structurally damaged!

Again, the max. time this aircraft can spend in the air (18hrs) is on both engines powering the aircraft and not one engine. Just ask yourself how long this aircraft can stay in the air without any engines operating it and still glide? Then ask yourself how long can it glide after being structurally damaged by a missile? It could probably do, but not with a wing damaged!

Anarayan, this aircraft could possibly glide in perfect conditions, but you have to admit that the flying conditions were not perfect after the Indian missile struck it`s port engine.

Since you have multiple degrees in Aerospace Engineering, could you please tell me how an aircraft is supposed to glide on one wing only for 18 hours at a time?

I would appreciate your comments on this question.

Re: Ferozk #: 94

Your confident BullS * * *ing is commendable !

``... but I am a serious student of military affairs history and over the course of many years, I have managed to gain an appreciation of military strategy and combat tactics. As to proof, let us start with the wreakage of the aircraft. The Atlantigue does not ``glide`` well and because of that fact...``

In your capacity as self-appointed expert on all matters military, you should perhaps know that reconnaissance aircraft are BUILT TO GLIDE - to hover around for as long as possible. The most famous of these was the U-2, which had an enormous wingspan. Seeing the Atlantique, I was struck by the size of its wingspan. If you knew any aerodynamics you would know that gliding ability is directly related to aspect ratio which is directly related to wingspan. I did some research and found that the Atlantique`s wingspan is about 40 meters as compared to its overall length of 31 meters. THIS AIRCRAFT WAS BUILT TO GLIDE.

If you are still not convinced look at the maximum time this aircraft can spend in the air - 18 hours !!!

If you are thinking up your usual half-baked, technical repartee to this mail, I should let you know that I have more than 1 degree in Aerospace Engg.

Re: Goyal # 98

Agreed! This whole faux pas was a blessing in disguise of the hard liners in both countries and the issue of ``betrayal`` is a very emotional topic on both side of the border and could get out of hand if not nipped in the bud.

Goyal, this is nothing more than the latest in the series of South Asian waltzes, which has been going on for the last 52 years: one step forward, half a step to the side, two steps back and turn and repeat.....

The key is, in order to salvage and restore the peace process, for the moderates to discredit the hard liners in both nations via the example of Kargil and not to lose hope. You are right, the hard liners will come to power and stay there if the moderates do not voice their opposition to them. To quote Ras, the ball is in the moderates quote and if they drop it, there will be no reprive or another chance to amend this situation.

Goyal, take hope yaar! Nothing is lost unless we give up the fight!! So, I say to all moderates, and please pass the word: Stand up, stand up and play the game!!!!

Feroz #97,

Perhaps you already know much about Indian political scene. For 50 years, we were able to thwart all sorts of religious fanatics. Success of Kargil episode would have given another shot in the arms of moderates.

I was in India ( and in Doda district) when this war was happening. War was a disappointment to people. Though cease fire is being trumpted as a victory for Indian position, people are disappointed at government taking to action for loss of so many lives and resources for what they see as treachery.

This will only bring hardliners to power. With Pakistan already in grip of muslim hardliners, it is now going to be a no-win situation for everyone.

Re: Goyal

You are absolutely right to say that there is no trust between Indians and Pakistanis. There is no jingoism in the line, which you quoted, but a simple declaration of facts. I said those words, because after this incident the 1991 treaty, preventing near border flights, which was a confidence building treaty has been destroyed beyond repair.

If memory serves me, I remember cautioning people, here at Chowk and else where, that Lahore should not be construed to mean anything beneficial or as a positive indicator of peace in the region. I am sorry that there was a general sense of dismay and dis-believe after Lahore in guise of Kargil, but people should not have had such high expectations from the Lahore summit.

Who stirred the hornets nest first? Goyal, we can sit here and discuss who is to blame and in the process we can beat each other over historical distinctions and seek to place the blame, but it will not solve the problem. Instead of disagreeing where the border or LoC is, let us agree that people are dead, because of it and seek to prevent such an occurance from happening again.

It is high time that both sides stopped playing this blame game and admitted to their own sins in this matter and only when this happens, will there be a realistic chance to solve the animity beteen our two nations.

Ferozk #94,

First tune to Pakistan Independence day awards where two army men are awarded medal for shooting down an Indian helicopter using a shoulder launched missile. That shooting in the very beginning of Kargil conflict happened atleast 4 miles inside Indian area.

Now refer to your statement #82

``All the Indians have done is merely stir the hornets nest, so please do not be suprised when your aircraft are targeted and shot at by Pakistan.``

Is it not your zingoism that is coming out of this line? Who stirred the hornets nest first? When everyone was feeling pally-pally after lahore, Pakistan shoots an aircraft inside Indian territory. Should not you have written this line at that time?

Trust was broken. What is happening now is result of that act!

Regards

Re: goyal:

No, I am not an authority per se on miltary strategy, but I am a serious student of military affairs history and over the course of many years, I have managed to gain an appreciation of military strategy and combat tactics.

As to proof, let us start with the wreakage of the aircraft. The Atlantigue does not ``glide`` well and because of that fact, it is safe to conclude that it was destroyed inside Pakistan. Also, one only has to find out just what type of missile the IAF MiGs fired at it and what was the max. range of those weapons? That should narrow the point of intercept considerably. Secondly, if the debris did fall inside India, why has India not taken a group of miltary attaches or UN personnel to the site and via the use of GPS claimed that it was inside India?

The best way and the most prefered way to settle this issue is by having Pakistanis releasing the speed, direction and last known location or radar fix of the aircraft before it was destroyed and for the Indians to release the flight info stored in the fire radar computers of the MiGs and the actual gun camera footage of the aircraft being destroyed. Since, that will never happen, there is no definate way to determine just where and how the aircraft was destroyed.

Yes, Kargil was a war zone despite what Pakistan was claiming. I do not give a fig in hell what Pakistan was denying or claiming, because Kargil was a limited war between Indian and Pakistani military forces and any one with any understanding of logistics would tell you that the ``freedom fighters`` do not have the capability to sustain offensive actions in such an inhospitable terrain against a professional military force!

I have never justified war in the past, but the misunderstanding arises from my facination with its conduct and its implements of purpose. Goyal, just because I hate war does not mean that I fail to understand its ``myriad faces``. This is an ironic contradiction of my character, because I love to study the very thing I hate!

For the record, I condemn Kargil, because it only added to the hate and misery in India and Pakistan without settling anything! Goyal, why condemn Kargil? Why not condemn the whole bloody insitution of war itself? Wars are nothing more than a mass murder writ large and nothing ever justifies, or can justify, the un-necessary loss of a singal human life.

My friend, please read my article ``Remembering Private Ryan`` on Chowk and you will have a better understanding of how I feel towards the topic of war!!

Re: Jay # 91

Yes, it is normal for a training flight to take place near the Indian border, but what was not normal was the Indian reaction to it. Contary to what UR might think, I think there was failure in the IAF`s line of communications and some one did lose his nerve. What ever the reasons may have been, this incident raises serious questions about the IAF`s command and control over its fighter bases.

IAF has been heavily influenced by Soviet air doctrines and by its rigid rules of controlling the flow of the battle from the ground through pre-determined maneuvers. In the last few years IAF has been de-centralizing its fighter groups and allowing more individual freedom to its pilots and forward air controllers to seek and react to more realistic combat scenrios. In this case, I think a FAC, using his own judgement, over reacted to the presence of the PN aircraft.

The aircraft was without an escort, because it was on routine training mission. Yes, you could drop troops from the Atlantique, but why would you? If that was the intention, it would have been better to opt for a C-130 and go for a HALO jump. The presense of sailors does not imply anything and unlike the Indian forces, Pakistan armed forces place more responsibilities on its NCOs and this could be nothing more than to familarize them with the systems on the aircraft.

The type of the training could depend on a host of factors and could be anything related to the performance of the aircraft and its on-board systems.

Hope this helps!

Re: anarayan # 90

Chill bro! Read what I am saying calmly before you get your panties in a bunch and get all twisted and spazed out!!:)

Atlantique is an ASW (anti submarine warfare) aircraft. It is designed with that in mind and not to operate as a ``ferret`` over IAF bases. PAF has better methods of ``fingerprinting`` Indian radar signitures than send a PN ASW aircraft. The only caveat to this might be that the aircraft was tracking Indian naval electronic emissions out of Mumbai and other Indian naval bases, because the Indian navy`s radar systems work on a different pulse modualar frequencies than IAF radar systems.

The PN aircraft might be using the Indian radar to calibrate its own radar systems and might be training its personnels in modes of tracking and localizing Indian electonic emissions and identifying their sources.

This still does not give the Indians the de jure right to ingress into Pakistani airspace and shoot the aircraft down, because what ever its mission might be, it was operating within the territorial limits of Pakistan. If the aircraft was gathering ELINT, on the Indians, from within India than the incident could be justified, but it was not! If Pakistani military aircraft want to gather ELINT on the Indians from within Pakistan and then it is their right to so and it does not give the Indians an excuse to violate Pakistani airspace to prevent such a flight mission.

Anarayen, regardless of the Atlantique`s mission, IAF does not have the right to shoot it down within Pakistan if the aircraft never intruded into India! In this case, post-accident evidence seems to suggest that the Indians simply screwed the pooch in this matter!

In the case of your MiGs on the LoC, it was a different situation, because they entered Pakistani airspace on our side of the LoC. In this case, the Atlantique did not enter Indian airspace. Also, Kargil was a war zone and the intentions of IAF aircraft, when they transgressed, were hostile. In this case, the PN Atlantique`s intentions would never be known, because it was inside Pakistan when it was destroyed.

Again, you need to chill and do a little research before you make silly statements like ISI fighting a proxy war by willing to risk and lose an ASW aircraft!

UR #85

``This was nothing but a cowardly act, that goes against all traditions of military aviation chivalry.``

``Shooting down an unarmed airplane (even in owns own territory) is shameful, and cowardly.``

Kindly stop giving a lesson in chivalry and bravery. I do agree that this act is wrong. But equally wrong were the act where Pakistani soldiers sneaked into Indian territory and directed fire on a town. Chivalry would have been to wage a direct war. Not a proxy one.

Chivalry would also mean to not disown the dead soldiers like Pakistan did.

Ferozk #92,

I assume that you are some sort of authority in military strategy.

India collected part of debris from its side of border. What proof do you have when you say that Indians ingressed in Pakistani space?

You also say that Kargil was a war zone. Did pakistan declare that it was a war zone. They were all along denying their involvement. India didn`t droped a bomb inside Pakistan. How will you justify the killing of Indian pilots and torture and murder of army men.

Please don`t justify any kind of war. If you want to condemn the Indian act, kindly add Kargil episode to it. I will join you in condemning them both.

Regards

Ferzok,

A person with some detailed info about military planning, I would appreciate your comments.

1. If Atlatique was on a training flight, is it normal for training to take palace near the indian border.

2. Under the present circumstances, why was the plane sent without an escort.

3. Could the plane be on a mission to drop intruders.

4. How do you expolain the unusual number of :sailors`.

5. What is the type of training one can give so close to an enemy border.

Re: Ferozk #: 82

``The Indian charges that the PN Atlantique was on an intelligence gathering mission is a non sequiter, because the aircraft is not the best platform for an ELINT mission. Granted it has the capability to track Indian radar signitures and IAF operational routine...``

Are you ignorant, or just stupid ?

Maybe tracking Indian radar signature does not fall under `Intelligence Gathering` in your lexicon. Also, the Indian authorities have mentioned some other things that the plane was upto.

``...the next time an IAF aircraft transgresses into Pakistani airspace, it will be shot down without any warnings...``

Again, are you ignorant, or just stupid ?

What the *@#%&! did you do to our MiGs in Kargil ?

``All the Indians have done is merely stir the hornets nest...``

The ISI has stepped up its proxy war. What ELSE can you do ?

If I were in a boxing ring I might wish the opponent punched with

right only in response to the right blow,but can he be bound.

I remember a joke when a Nawab invited his Sikh friend on lunch.

After the meals he said ``We should have fresh ``Gulab Jamans`` for dessert.

The guest was only pleased. Nawab ordered his servant to fetch the dessert

from sweetshop and when the servant went away he started a running commentry.

``He has got out of the house now, now he has crsossed the main road now the

cycle shop and now he has turned into the sweetmeat shop lane and now he has

asked for Gulab Jaman and now he is coming back lo he is here. Are you

there with the dessert``? The servant answers in affirmative and serves

the dessert. The Sikh guest was very impressed and resolved that he would

also train his servant in this manner. It took him some time to drill the

servant. when satisfied with his training he invited the nawab over to lunch

and deliberately omitted yogurt from the menu.During the lunch he says

``Nawab we are missing yogurt and called his servant and ordered him to fetch

it, and as the servant went away the host started giving the running

commentry.`` Karatara has taken the bike, he is out on the road, now he has

crossed over to the milkmans side he has reached there, now he has purchased

the yogurt and coming back lo he is here.``Are you back, Karatara``?

The servant replied,``Sardarji hale jootti lub reyan!(I haven`t found my

shoes yet!).



No religion professes barbarism or terrorism of any kind, it is the

bad followers who, to put it very very mildly misinterpret and justify

wanton violence.tariqlodi