Touch

First I`d like to congratulate the author. A very well written article, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

As for the discussion it has sparked, I`m very disappointed by how all and sundry become the victims of the generalization monster. This was just one person`s account of just one of Islam`s many rituals and celebrations. Not all muslim families standaround the goat or calf and applaud as it is clumsily killed. Throughout my life, my family always called in a butcher who slaughtered the animal as proffesionally and as quickly as was possible. I know some people might find the concept itself offensive but that`s all part of religion. There are a lot of concepts in other religions which I find offensive, but I don`t go around condemning them.

I`d just like to remind chowkwallas to be tolerant of others, and to accept others for who they are, and respect what they stand for.

Cheers

Haniya Aslam

Here I go again. My previous msg was not published in full for some reason. Tried again, got congratulated and everything but nothing has shown up in 15 hrs or so.

I`d like to recommend Syed`s ``Witness`` published on Sulekha as another brilliantly told story.

RE: temporal # 8

Yaadish ba Khair

MUSLIMS AND MEAT:

At a ``Murree/Hazara`` style Pakistani Dhaba somewhere on Sharjah Fujairah Highway:

Prasad: sabji kya hai?

Waiter: sabzi ji palak gosht hai, shaljam gosht hai

Prasad: acha, dal mein kya hai

Waiter: dal mein sirf chanay ki dal gosht

HINDUS AND MEAT:

Lunch Buffet at a Pakistani resturant in Northern CA.

Fat Woman to her husband: Ashok, yeh kya hai

Ashok: Nihari hai nihari

Fat woman loads her plate with at least 2 lbs. of beef.

F_K, that was good!

As I have said before, Shiraz`s piece is certainly one of the best.

Krashid:#24

well said!

Ibn e Insha,the GREAT(according to another GIANT) urdu humorist,in his ``The Last Primer of Urdu)

wrote thus:

(Introducing) BHARAT---[as a geography lesson]

This is Bharat.Gandhiji was born here.The people had tremendous respect for him.They referred to him as `the great soul`(even when he was living).Therefore,they killed him and buried him here and a Samadhi built.Dignitaries when visiting here lay floral wreaths on it.If Gandhiji had not died,I mean,was not killed then there was no place in the entire country where devotees could lay their floral wreaths.Similar kind of dilemma was faced by the Pakistanis.We should be eternally grateful to the Quaid e Azam that he died on his own and created an opportunity for the foreign emissaries to lay their floral wreaths.Otherwise,we might have had to kill him too.

Bharat is a very peace-loving country.The proof of this is the fact that she has signed several cease-fire agreements with a lot of its neighbours.This happened in 1965 with us and before that with China.

The Cow is the sacred animal in Bharat.Bhartis consume its milk.Use its dung/clay mix as a wall to wall carpet and then send the animal to the butcher.Because?Because,they consider killing it themselves and THEN eating its meat,a cardinal sin.

A human is not considered sacred in Bharat.

__________________________________________________(An extract only.Translation is mine and I earnestly hope that I`ve been able to convey some flavour-------You know translating homour is perilious,to say the least.)

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

AD #19

What do you think about killing of humans.

Is it less barbaric.

What do you think about killing in custody. Are those victims less helpless.

I think like you eat meat but leave slaughter to others. So you think in terms of people.

Dear Naqshbandi,

 ``really dont see why people seem so much against Islamic

  time-honoured rituals and yet still say `we are Muslims`.

  To disparage a single sunnat of the Messenger of Allah

  is kufr...``

That is the problem. When you say something like that there is no room for discussion, debate or questioning. That is the final word. So why not accept the same reasoning for some other custome or ritual?

I have witnessed animal being sacrificed and found it too gory. Years back in 1971 I had been to Guwahati in Assam when my parents used to be stationed there. A trip to the Kamkhya Temple is a must for every visitor to the city. There is a superstition that you will return in grief if you do not visit the temple.

Goats are sacrificed every morning from 8 to 12. And during Dussehra they sacrfice buffalos.(Dussehra celebrates the destruction of the demon Mahisha at the hands of Goddess Durga. Mahisha took the form of every possible animal as Durga tried to destroy him. Finally when he was ``morphing`` into a buffalo, Durga killed him. And as it happens with every mythical evil-doer in Hinduism death at the hands of the Gods guarantees you salvation!!)

And for some strange reason that day my father decided to take us up to the temple in the morning. I was very keen to watch the goats being cut up. My younger sister who was barely five had already seen it and was describing it gleefully.

When I entered the temple it was suddenly all so different. Being used to the temples of the South (where the only sacrfice is a coconut) I found something amiss. It was a faint odor I wasn`t used to. (I turned non-vegetarian only at 20. I relish all meat but one day-I don`t know when- I will turn vegetarian)

Sticky walkways, and the smell of goats and the sight of them being dragged around. And then I came to the slaughter-hall and it was a horrendous sight. Goat after goat being chopped up. I saw the first one and then the second and then it was too much. I couldn`t bear to stand there and presently burst out of the place. Somehow my father convinced me to visit the shrine. That afternoon I must have showered at least 5-6 times in a Lady Macbethian fashion. But that faint odor and feel of the place never left me for the next few days.

After that every year we would visit the temple but only in the afternoon.

Hindus sacrifice animals even today. In Nepal animals are sacrficed at most temples excepting the Sri Narayana temple in Kathmandu. In Bali every species of animal found is offered at times of the year. In India itself chickens are offered in some parts of the country. The Himachalis and Gorkhas sacrifice buffalos. But it is becoming rarer by the day - simply because it is getting to be an expensive habit. It`s so much simpler to break a coconut (which BTW are ersatz)

The classic temple design still has a Bali Pitham - or sacrificial block - a table made of stone on which the animal is to be killed. Of course today it is just used to break coconuts!

With all apologies to my Muslim friends on Chowk. I find such a contrast between the two Eids - Eid-ul-Fitr and Eid-ul-Azha - in the way it is practiced.

One fasts during the month of Ramzan and as some Muslim friends tell me one must not only fast but also try to keep the mind free from anger, jealousy and lead a life of moderation. Whereas at the other Eid we find an uncaring attitude towards dumb creatures. How is it that the piety and gentleness of Ramzan becomes transformed into cruelty during Eid-ul-Azha? What happens to a child who grows up with these conflicting emotions?

And for the umpteenth time - must we cling obstinately to a literal interpretation? Does God really, really intend us to be this way? The answer cannot be found from what has been said or written earlier. The answer can only be found within ourselves. I know I run the risk of sounding blasphemous. But then I am clear. My communion with God is primarily within my Self. And that is the ultimate test. It does not matter who says what or threatens me with whatever consequences. I for one do not believe that God and his saints and messengers are so fragile that they require protection from defamation. If God is Truth, Love and Purity nothing can defile Him/her/it.

``Incidentlly, why are children allowed to watch this barbaric act ? It is considered healthy for a small child to watch all the blood and gore ?``

All the blood and gore is a natural act - just like se_xual intercourse (but the children cannot watch that no way otherwise they will turn into rapists) What good can come out of letting little children watch the blood and gore ? is there something wrong with that ? was there something wrong with the blood and gore, the massacre and carnage we wreaked when we invaded persia and the indo pak sub continent ?

I do not think so. Children need to learn these ``survival`` skills - so that when they grow up they can kill and slaughter on their own. Right ?

Then we have to worry about other ``animals`` like the white animals in the west who go around having sex with each other like dogs and b_i_tches and monkeys - they do it with whomever they please. The children have to be prepared for Jihad and sacrifice in the way of Allah.

And we do it all for Allah and the poor people of this world :)

we are such great and good people ...

Reply #: 3

Solitude

``

Has Cousin Nuni turned into a hindu ? How can she NOT eat meat and still call herself a pakistani or a Muslim ?

``

Is that your definition of a muslim ? Do all musllims need to eat meat ? Do all muslims need to keep a beard ?

One should analyze the reason behind the customs. You sacrifice something that is dear to you... can it not be some bad habit that you have .. say smoking... or perhaps even drinking.

I am not sure if Allah would want poor animals to be slaughtered.... just to appease him.

AD

I am sorry if muslims feel offended, but the description of the slaughter of animals is just too painful to witness. Perhaps, this is why, even reading about it makes me depressed.

Incidentlly, why are children allowed to watch this barbaric act ? It is considered healthy for a small child to watch all the blood and gore ?

A close muslim friend of mine had the audacity to say that animals do not feel that they are alive. I told him to witness how meek and quite animals become when they come near a slaughterhouse. They can smell the death in the air, and they are aware of their own impending mortality.

Alothough, to be fair, to all I confess that I am a meat eater (yes some Hindus do eat meet), althouh I try not to eat beef. So in a way I am being a hypocrite, by denouncing this barbaric act.

However, my point is that there is a big difference between buying meat fromm a butcher and killing an animal and then eating its meat.

I guess the difference is in the fact that in one you actully are the direct instigator and in the other you are the ``beneficary`` of someone elses instigation.

Anyway, I know that I do not have a strong enough argument to justify my diet... but I do know that I would never, never eat meat if I had to kill the animal myself.

And a word of advice: Children are tender and should not be exposed to such cruel acts at such a young age. And it is cruel, no matter what the mullah or anyone else says.

AD

Mr Naqshbandi why are you giving him more food for thought (and criticism of Islam) ...

Your post is the kind of post he would love to jump at ....

-YLH

mere lahoo kee surkhee sey pias bujhi qurbani kee

jis roz shehr maiN qatl hua maiN eid manaee logoN ney

Bakra Qurbanvi

Two Suggestions by Bakra Qurbanvi:

1) You Pakistanis should rationally analyze the negative effect of our genocide and Hajj on your economy. We suggest you calculate its contribution on your poor saving rate.

2) Please do not buy us several day in advance because, you know, we are domesticated animals. We fall in love with your children and they fall in love with us--because we have little capability of responding--and then you brutally kill us in front of them.

``and the Jews too ... no criticism of them I see``

Have you tried the local mosque? If you want criticism of the Jews try the nazis or the arabs or any Muslim really. Why ? because they are both human. Both are victims of a religion (or interpretation of a religion) that spreads hate.

``If you dont want to sacrifice animals on Eid then dont --but at least have the manners to respect those who DO wish to follow the way ``

You are right - we should all be as tolerant as Islam (of other people`s religion). Like the time the Mughals were ruling India they never bothered about stopping ritual child sacrifice by the hindus but they did care about raiding their temples to steal the gold and jewelry (or about massacring , torturing , taxing, raping their subjects)- besides why should they have stopped such religious practises when they could go ``those crazy hindus ... we feel so much more superior to those unbelievers``. We should all respect other people`s religious practices right?

It was not until the British came over (those godless british) to the sub continent that ritual child sacrifice was banned. Did Islam bother to ban slavery ? no (instead it condoned it, regulated it and even INTRODUCED it into Europe)

What did Islam ban ? women`s faces, love, freedom (submit to Allah brother be a slave to Him), equality (only a member of the tribe of quraish can be Khalifa- all shias and qadianis and dhimmis are 2nd class citizens, all women get half inheritance )it banned justice ( unequal testimony, crucifixion, chopping hand and feet, starving a woman to death), it banned peace (``iqtalu hatta la takuna fitna tun wal arda lil allah`` [kill until there is no opposition and the earth is Allah`s]- jihad, to the point that no known peaceful Muslim community exists, they are violent from morrocco to Indonesia and are the Muslims of the west are barely controlled by British American laws).

Am I equating child sacrifice with animal sacrifice (that too sacrificed in the name of god, in the name of the ``poor`` and in the name of ``saving planet earth``)? probably not.

There are much more humane ways of feeding the poor, much more humane ways of killing animals. But the humane has little to do with the divine religion of Islam - that everyone understands perfectly :)

Shiraz,

I got to reading this story within a few of of it`s appearance... browsed through the opening paras and decided there were more pressing things to do on the chowk (after all, haven`t we`ve seen the Solitude-exposes-hypocrisy-and-cruelty routine all before?).

With nothing better to do at lunch hour, I thought `what the heck...``.

Shiraz, this has got to be one of the best pieces of emotive writing on the chowk. I thought I`d cut and paste a few of the very profound passages here, but that would be reproducing half the story.

Your gift of artful expression -- enviable in itself -- is enhanced by an impassioned struggle to retain your soul-- to resist the chains around your heart, your mind. Where so many of us bury and `adjust` and wear a happy face, you struggle and fight, and keep your unmistakably human one.

Some of the psychological insights here would do a Dostoevesky proud (or a Dylan Thomas too). In particular:

[ We all keep to ourselves and avoid looking weak, needy, lonely and human. We then hate everyone else for doing exactly as we do. We hide our desires and we hide our shades of shame even though we are all the same. It is painful. But then we ``mature`` and begin to prefer the pleasure of the pain.]

Your blow-by-blow account of the sparrow incident was quite moving... I remember being in a similar situation and feeling much the same. Only, I chose to bury my feelings with the excuse that ``everyone does this.`` The same with the Bakra Eid blood-fest. There is only a vague recollection of the digust and pity I once felt witnessing the `sacrifices`. By about age 12 it was a spectacle my friends and I were appropriately hardened to.

There is a sense of gratitude I feel... You`ve certainly hit a few nerves that I thought were atrophied.

This is certainly the stuff of quality I`ve been telling you for long now you`re capable of. {Insert Rebel Yell here :)}

best regards,

PM

Shiraz--that was a very well-written piece; your command of langu8age and particularly your descriptive sections were excellent.

That said, it is a pity that this is another in the long litany of articles on Chowk which are implicitly anti-Islam. Yes, please do not deny that in this maze of adjectives and good writing was the central dictum that the sacrifice which Muslims perform all over the world and which is called Baqr Eid (Eid ul Adha) is barbaric. We have been performing this Sunnat-e-Ibrahimi (tradition of Prophet Abraham -alayhi salaam) for 1400 years (and the Jews too since before then--no criticism of them I see) and it is one of the two major Eids of Islam. I really dont see why people seem so much against Islamic time-honoured rituals and yet still say `we are Muslims`. To disparage a single sunnat of the Messenger of Allah is kufr...

If you dont want to sacrifice animals on Eid then dont --but at least have the manners to respect those who DO wish to follow the way of our Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam..

And your reference to the Sacred rites during the Hajj of stoning Satan with the word ``phallic symbol`` was offensive to say the least. Dekh bai, agar Islam itna hi bura lagta hai--then why not leave it? After all, the choice is yours :-)

BTW, one is not obliged to eat meat as a Muslim --but you shouldn`t make something which Allah has made halal for you haram for yourself. In His mercy he has made meat permissible for us...

Also, perhaps it was due to the fact that you saw this sacrifice during your childhood that you made a mistake but the words used during qurbani are NOT Bismillah-ar-Rahman ar-Raheem but ``Bismillahi wallahu Akbar`` (thrice) and there is not supposed to be any stabbing etc. but a quick and immediate severing of the jugular vein (actually an artery)--which is why the SunnaH advocates using a VERY sharp knife to minimise the pain and also to not show the knife to the animal till the last moment--which cuts off the oxygen supply to the brain resulting in vry quick, and therefore relatively painless, death. (The twitching etc. of the animal afterwards is due to the spasms of the muscles which occurs AFTER the animal has actually died as the last enemy reserves are used up).