Negotiating Human Rights

jay

well uve admitted there are certain problems with India, problems of implementation as you call them and thats a start. However, those are the very problems that we are facing in Pakistan. I have no clue where your getting your impressions that we dont know our wrongs from rights, our legal from the illegal. As I have mentioned before, we have basically the same laws on the books that you do. Murder is illegal, it does not state anywhere that the murder of a minority or woman has any less significance than that of a Muslim man. The same goes for theft, corruption, whatever else. The problem comes with the law enforcers and the people in power who have influence over them. These elements are corrupt to the core and ordinary Pakistanis will continue to suffer at their hands. Now tell me how is the denial of justice to the family of girl murdered in an honour killing in Pakistan any different from the denial to a muslim family of their boy murdered by a well connected hindu in a slum of bombay? To me its useless to talk about laws when there is selective implementation.

to baloch1,

Implementation is important, but the concepts gives the frame work under which implementation takes place. World is essentially a world of ideas, if there are no laws, there is nothing to implement. Pakistan is in an ideological tugof war, and that is why ideas should be welcomed, what ever they might be. One should have the veracity and verve to discuss them openly, and it is totally lacking among the educated.

For example the vexed issue of honour killing. Who should be the arbiter of honour, who can order the killing etc. First and foremost is the need for ideas, the definition of good and bad, legal and illegal. In pakistan this is still not being worked out. Should the book be supreme, or should it be some secular human values, may be they are christian human values.

To come back to the central issue, indian problems are that of implementation, pakistan problems are that of finding a value frame work, the paucity of ideas, the conflict of ideas, the sheer hopelessness.

jay #70

jay my friend laws are no good if no one ever cares to enforce them or they arnt worth the paper they are written on. Do tell how many people were punished for babri masjid or the killings of christians and other minorities. The man who incited Babri masjid is now an important minister in the Indian government. By the way there are no laws in pakistan that sanction the killing of any minorities, ahmadians are proclaimed to be a non muslim sect but the law does not sanction there persecution as you seem to imply. However, as in India, our officials also turn a blind eye to all the laws and do as they please.

To baloc1,

Take it easy, there is a world of difference between what is in india and in pakistan. Babri masjid, we talk about, is there any one ever mentioning the temples destroyed in `` spontaneous violence in response to babri masjid``.

Read your blasphemy laws, it is reeking with hatred for the ahmadias.

In india the acts you mentions are crimes, in pakistan it is all a good days work for a true jihadic muslim, sanctioned, approved and glorified by law. Pakistan and india, it is chalk and cheese. Never say the two words in one breath.

regards

jay

jay #68

Before you criticise Pakistan, US or any other country check in your own back yard first. I love the way the Indians here conveiniently forget what happened with Babri masjid, the killings and rapes of christians in the western states or the killings of Sikhs in Punjab and Muslims in Kashmir. Not to mention the daily anti minorities rhetoric spewed out by politicians of organizations like the RSS and BJP. I will be the first to admit that we have serious human rights and religious problems in Pakistan, as this story demonstrates, but you guys need to get off your imaginary high horse too.

A HAPPY NEWS,

from deccan herald of today,

Controversy over Hindu prayer in US House

WASHINGTON, Sept 23 (PTI & UNI)

A US-based conservative body has objected to holding a Hindu religious prayer, arranged for the first time in the House of Representatives last week, saying that it ``tantamounts to sanctioning paganism.``

``It is one more indication that our nation is drifting from its Judaeo-Christian roots. Our priceless Western civilisation is derived from the Bible,`` the right wing Family Research Council (FRC) said.

``The US has historically honoured the one true Biblical god. Woe be to us on that day when we relegate Him to being merely one among countless other deities in the pantheon of theologies.``

``Our founders expected that Christianity and no other religion would receive support from the government as long as that support did not violate people`s consciences and their right to worship. They would have found utterly incredible the idea that all religions, including paganism, be treated with equal reverence.``

/// pakistan is no different from the US.

Re: Anamika

Very reliable sources + Gut feel.

Saima Shah #25

How do you know what is related here is true?

LEADING BY EXAMPLE

At times of sadness, it is desirable to look at the fate of the leaders. Nawaz Sheriff, a man on the ground has been convicted of hijacking and imprisoned for life, while four hijackers on board an indian aircraft were welcomed as heros. Bhutto was sentenced to death for plotting the assasination of a man who is in a previlaged position accorded by the military.

If this is the fate of the leaders elected by the people, what hope is there for the ordinary. What hope is there for the ordinary when even the educated dare not criticise. What hope is there when the educated want to palm off as Oscar Wilde.

Mrs. Mary Zehri,

I join others on the Chowk in expressing my sorrow at what happened and in commending you on confronting the man who was abusing his wife. The behavior of the police was disgraceful. I pray that our country is able to overcome the dark forces of hatreds, greed and oppression of the strong that threaten us from within, and that one day the great beauty of the land and the people of which you wrote so generously, can shine through. I wish you and your family all the best.

cheraym #59 If I have understood you correctly, you are saying that we form our views on what someone says are formed based on (a) our existing image of that person as well as on (b) the specific statements that person makes. That is generally accepted to be true, and I do not disagree. The point is that our image of a person is formed by his/her appearance and position in life as well as the substance of what he/she says. On the internet, we cannot see the person, do not know what he/she does in real life, and so forth. So, the statements a person makes stand or fall largely on their own merits. If you are interested in this subject, I recall reading an article on this subject in the magazine Scientific American (dated around 1998) that described studies showing how the use of email for communication has tended to democratize offices.

The horrifying tale of Ismail Zehri & his wife Mary has left me stunned and shocked.Not to say seething with fury. Not only at the so-called ``socially well known`` Kazis But at the corrupt,

inept,repulsive,Pakistani system.Violation of Human Rights in Pakistan is a way of life and I am indignant at the way both local & international communities passively watch the mass muder of human dignity.

Ismail Zehri and I are school friends and if I know a `wonderful` human being, that is Ismail. Always smiling, warm, courteous, and dignified Ismail is a happily married man. I have met his wife and she is more conservatively dressed than most Pak women. She not only wears a shalwar kameez but her dupatta always covers her head. Dignified and kind, Mary is the perfect mate for Ismail. It makes me mad when I think of the torture, a kind soul like Ismail must have suffered at the hands of the brutal police.

This is a classic case of `abuse of power` when the Kazis used their influence to harrass the Zehris instead of sending their mentally unstable brother to a psychiatrist.

I want the world to know, Ismail Zehri and his wife Mary are not the sort of people to interfere

in anyone`s life but Basma being a cousin sister, it is but natural to feel that protectiveness. I am outraged at the charges slapped on the Zehris.

Taliban, bin Laden and drugs are stuff Ismail and Mary read only papers. But I Trust the Process...

and I know(history has proved in the past) dictatorship and authoritarianism of any kind eventually crash and Truth surfaces.

There is Hope for Ismail & Mary, not because I believe in the Government or the Courts of Pakistan BUT God is watching us.... and HE knows the truth.

The truth is: Ismail and Mary are INNOCENT.

jay Thackeray #60:

Read posts #1, 7 & 8: on the JJ thread.

Please remember to take your prescription orally, not ...

concerned,

temporal

To Mary Z,

There is a place called Taxila in pakistan. It was the seat of a great University where studies of austronomy, ayurveda etc flourished during the Gupta, hope I am correct, period. Now read the pakistan history from pak.org, the official version that form the basis of education in pakistan. The easeness with which the history has been eliminated.

Then read the john joss thread, responses 1 to 4, and note the audacious confidence with which a famour quote has been appropriated, clearly indicating a prediliction.

May be, when you leave pakistan, just ponder, what have you left behind...

Regards and best wishes for stay in another country which you can contrast with.

Jay.

Thank you Sadhana. I thought that the thrust of this article was not about domestic violence (which is quite common in many cultures), but about how people of power can get away with anything they want in our countries!

Tahmed, I tend to disagree with you on the last post. No matter where one is interacting, whether it is a conventional medium or internet, I think most people tend to follow natural instinct and thus reacting to an issue is very much characteristic of a person (subjective one). Although, ideally it should be more objective than subjective. You tend to form an opinion depending on how you feel about an issue. Otherwise, there will not be too much emphasis on chosing a national leader based on his/her opinions about various issues. See how Advani, although quite capable and forthright is generally not accepted by Indian mainstream as a prime minister because of his rather strong views. It is possible that he probably may act more leniently towards muslim views on certain issues, but people have personified him as a radical politician based on his words and words alone! I hope I am making some sense, that is why I prefer to be a technical writer than anything else.

My simple point to Ras was that since he is a journalist, he should have seen the development of this incident as it was presented, once the authenticity of the article was proven.

Jay, India`s name will come inevitably since you and I like many other Indians chose to interact in this forum. And what is so wrong about that? Don`t we have these problems in our country as well?

Regards

cheraym

To Mary Z,

There is a person called Lala Lajpat Roy in the indian independance movement. Please read about him, his sacrifices and his contribution to the indian/pak independance. Then visit his home, some where in lahore in dilapilated condition. Spend a few seconds infront of the home, think of your contribution compared to Roy`s, and have a last glace at the derelict building, you will walk away a wise person, and a lot will be revealed about pakistan, present and the future. Turn your sadness into wisdom.

Regards and best wishes.

Jay