Aap Amrika Main Hotay Hain?? (Do You Live In America)

RE: MacGupta

See Gupta how a smile can work wonders. Dont worry be happy and always :))))

Re: macgupta

``women have no imperfections``

Men`s imperfections can sometimes surface in more violent ways than those of women, but women still have them....you just experience them differently.

Re sadna #218

On count a:

Yes. And there are programs funded by US and other western countries to address that.. Destruction of poppy crops etc. falls in this category.. But these efforts are more of a PR exercise on the part of Western governments than anything else….and therefore, these programs are limited in scope as well as in funding.

On count b:

No. The reasons are as follows:
First the ruling people in Pakistan have to recognize that we do have a problem. At the moment there is denial on official level that such a problem exists in Pakistan. Almost all efforts to fight drug addiction in Pakistan are initiated, and funded by NGOs.

Second, the explicit details are well known… what are Pakistanis going to use as a threat? That we were/are also involved with our government apparatus devoted to this heinous business? And that now, we have lost control; please help us bring it back into OUR control? :)

On Mohammad Arshad’d board I posed some difficult question to a pro army person; he has so far avoided to answer them. Of course I am not as clever and tactful as some others on this site, and I also have difficulty with English language… but it is not difficult to see that these issues are avoided by pro army/pro center people... In other words, people who enthusiastically promote the current dominant discourse of Pakistan are not willing to face the difficult issues…. Despite my dislike for MQM, I do believe that Karachi was devastated more because of drugs and arms trade than ethnic violence… ethnic violence was one of the symptoms of deep rooted dissatisfaction with current arrangements of the federation of Pakistan… And this is why I believe that Bilal with his writings is touching on some really fundamental and vital issues (re-evaluation of current structure of federation being one of them)attracting server criticism in the process from pro army lobby... anyway, coming back to the point, the extent of damage because of ethnic violence was only made possible by access of various militant ethnic groups to fully automatic weapons … the results are for all to see… And in my humble opinion, people who were/are involved in this heinous drugs and arms business should be judged more harshly than any of the ethnic groups (or ordinary members of security forces for that matter.) Security forces in an attempt to counter ethnic violence performed numerous extra judicial killings and caused law and order to collapse completely in my beloved city. MQM and other militant ethnic groups were totally misguided in their actions and are guilty of gross human rights abuses… Still, if you ask me to investigate this matter, and punish the real culprits, let me assure you there will be few generals on my hit list :) HRC report criticizes Gen. Naiazi for his involvement in Paan smuggling. Fairdinkum commission report will highlight the involvement of few generals in drugs and arms dealings :)

Take care!

Cheers,
Fairdinkum

fairdinkum #211
Just a thought. Re` fighting the drug wars. Don`t you think Pakistan has a strong case for asking for Western funding for fighting the drug trade similar to Colombia?
a. on count of the `drug` threat to the West
b.on count of embarassing them with explicit details of how `they` may have helped promote it during the Afghan war?

Sadhana

macgupta #213 ``women have no imperfections``

and they know that too. like cats.

urstruly #214 ref to ``When a donkey manifests love, it does so with a kick``.

you are one funny person.

Urstruly :

My apologies in advance :-), but when you write --

The translation of another of Pushto proverb goes something like this: ``When a donkey manifests love, it does so with a kick``. You can address me directly- I dont bite, and I dont kick either (in case you were wondering).

-- then I can only conclude that you do not manifest love (and no, I was not wondering, thanks for asking).

In any case, kicking or biting over the Internet would be quite a feat.

-Arun Gupta

RE: MacGupta

The translation of another of Pushto proverb goes something like this:

``When a donkey manifests love, it does so with a kick``.

You can address me directly- I dont bite, and I dont kick either (in case you were wondering).

Re : tahmed321

Urstruly #203 I second your compliments to Rsaxena - it takes a real man to point to his own imperfections (there is obviously no similar Pashto proverb that applies to women, incidentally, and I think while you are in the business of improving on Pashto proverbs you should fix this shortcoming as well).

-- But a true gentleman would not speak of the imperfections of a woman. If women have no imperfections to speak of, there can be no such proverb coined by gentlemen. Perhaps the uncouth can try.

-arun gupta

fairdinkum #211

Thanks for your post. You are very right. We need to stop our governments/others from targetting innocent civilians. Btw, can you explain ``ordinary Pakistanis got punished by India for GOP’s policies in Kashmir``
You might like to read these:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/nov/04jk2.htm
http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20001105/ina05062.html

As I said in my previous posts, if even ordinary citizens are willing to fund other ordinary citizens to fight another country, then its a long impossible road to peace. Only if as many others make themselves heard where peace is concerned can anything happen.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/issues/0011/stern.html
``...Most of the militant groups` funding, however, comes in the form of anonymous donations sent directly to their bank accounts. Lashkar-i-Taiba (``Army of the Pure``), a rapidly growing Ahle Hadith (Wahhabi) group, raises funds on the Internet.
Lashkar and its parent organization, Markaz ad-Da`wa Wal Irshad (Center for Islamic Invitation and Guidance), have raised so much money, mostly from sympathetic Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia, that they are reportedly planning to open their own bank.

Individual ``mujahideen`` also benefit financially from this generous funding. They are in this for the loot, explains Ahmed Rashid, a prominent Pakistani journalist....``

You`ll admit that reports like these do nothing to dissipate the atmosphere of hate and distrust esp. when people say nothing can be done about it. The equation of ``remove I.army from Indian Kashmir == end of armed involvement of Pakistanis in Indian Kashmir(and Pakistan), they are all pure-minded`` just doesnot convince me, at least. Though let me hasten to add I`m not saying you are making that argument.

I do subscribe to the view, however, that the sooner a settlement is made wrt Kashmir, the sooner governments of both countries can get back to the real business of the state which is providing a better life for its citizens. For that reason and for many others, it is imperative that India clean up its act on its own even without reference to Pakistan`s stand.

Justice as weapon
http://in.news.yahoo.com/001101/48/as4a.html

Sadhana

“Pleeese. According to you, I`m the one who might have the hidden agenda.”

Sadhana,

accha ab mazaq nahi uraoo zayada :) aur ji nahi main nay yay nahi kaha
I said “even if” Sadhana has a hidden agenda…even if….:) aap dobara say parh lain woo wala response. waisay, I do think that we have few people on this site who have a weird style. Their responses somehow don’t fit into a normal/abnormal/crazy/eccentric/or any known behavior. If I had the same idea about you, I wouldn’t bother talking to you at all…. I value your comments more than you know. I am aware of the fact that you get personally attacked for expressing your views… this is unfortunate… aap dil kharab na kiya karyn.. I appreciate the fact that you haven’t been personally abusive in response to the personal abuse dished out to you.

Sadhana, I am fully aware of the situation in regards to the narcotics and arms trade… I grew up in Karachi, and in 80s, I saw the boom in drugs and arms trade in Karachi… We had martial law in the country (Zia-ul-Haq era), and very close to where we lived, people were selling drugs in broad daylight right in front of army checkpoint…. After the fall of USSR... perhaps international connections for drugs trade were lost along with US interest in Pakistan. Army/isi got used to having billions of dollars flowing in, and probably in desperation they didn’t object to selling drugs and arms locally… it devastated Karachi. It is well know that prominent military people were involved. Even the names are known… Air Marshal Anwar Shamin, and General Fazl-e-Haq (Zia’s right hand man), for example, are known drug traffickers… they were doing their own little side business in arms and drugs dealings I suppose… People like fazl-e-haq and anwar shamim gave the go ahead for local trade .. starting with Karachi.. it has now spread like wild fire in all parts of Pakistan… perhaps the biggest source of foreign exchange earnings for Afghanistan are Pakistani drug addicts…who now number in hundreds of thousands if not millions…

I know that religious organizations in Pakistan have foreign links… I also know about the power of money in buying influence! A realistic assessment of the situation suggests that we don’t stand a chance. It looks impossible to convince the ruling class in Pakistan to move away from policies of confrontation. As for fighting the religious zealots, odds are stacked against us. Btw, I have also seen how ordinary Pakistani citizens got punished by India for GOP’s policies in Kashmir…

Sadhana, to be honest, I was not very enthusiastic about Lahore… I knew that it wasn’t going to work… Unless we have the biggest political force in Pakistan (the army) on board while undertaking such initiatives, we are wasting our time. I concur with Arun Gupta that Army and religious organizations are calling the shots in Pakistan… the situation was not different at the time of Lahore initiative… we need to change that first, before we embark on a peace initiative with India… still, we need to keep telling our governments to stop violence against innocent civilians…

TIME TO REJOICE,

how sad, the indians and pakistanis are `fighting` on the chowk. What else can one do on the internet. Oh, pakistanis are good, there are no jihadists, the importance given to death in kasmir in dawn and jung are a mere pereversion of the editors, kargill was a military operation with no involvement of the ordinary pakistanis, and what next, share tea and biscuits and talk about the taste of kebabs. If one is doing something positive, to promote peace, why the anonymity of internet, bask in the sunshine. In the anonymity what is easy to do is sling mud, there is no harm in it. It shows the fascination and interest of each other. What is worse could be non- communication, no interest at all. Mudslinging and trading of insults is good, that is what the medium supports and go for it with no bars. That is the sign of concern, that is the sign of understanding, that is the footsteps to peace, peace through iraquisation, preperation for the peace.

What one can communicate, what one can achieve is limited by the medium. Interactions are good, even if it is mud-slinging. The alternative is silence.

fairdinkum #208
``In Pakistani jails, they are a lot more convincing and “practical”
Pleeese. According to you, I`m the one who might have the hidden agenda. And I havenot been personally abusive in response to the personal abuse that has been dished out on this board by other posters. Since tahmed and others were speaking about expectations from chowk, I can I have never been subjected to such personal abuse just for expressing my opinion until I came to chowk. I can count at least a half-a-dozen times in the last year that I`ve been attacked for being a spy, (I prefer to forget the obscene remarks)mostly as a convenient way to avoid making points. So if you are speaking of `forcing`, your statement really goes over the top. Though it would still be interesting to hear about your experiences.

``I will not accept twisted arguments in favour of going along with the rubbish GOP or GOI``

Noone is asking you to. Donot make twisted arguments of your own, however idealistic you choose to be. The Indian government keeps bungling its chances, there is no doubt. The Pakistani government is a bungler in its own right apart from which, it keeps having ideological qualms. Thats what I think the matter is in a nutshell.

Now nothing wrong in challenging status quo. But in my mind, to do this successfully one must first recognise what is status quo. A whole apparatus of funding and organization of `other influences` which peaceniks on both sides cannot take on just by speaking in drawing rooms. The `other influences` are not amenable to amicable discussion and disagreement and mutual solutions however much peaceniks on each side cry on each other`s shoulders. Can peaceloving Indians and Pakistanis match the funding, organization and reach of say `Wahabi Arabs, Iran, wealthy sectarian institutions`? I posted a Times of India quote from Indian Army report about $2.5 billion raised by ISI through narcotics. Noone commented on whether it was likely to be true or not. Can peaceloving Indians and Pakistanis generate even a quarter of the influence that such money buys? Yes they can if they have a political voice of sufficient strength backed by sufficient numbers of people. Now how is that voice to be asserted? You tell me.

I was very enthused about Lahore, too. I thought once people on both sides of the border realise the exciting possibilities, they would make detente happen through sheer pressure of public will on leaders on both side. Well, how real was that expectation? I`m not opposed to peace `initiatives` at all. I just want such initiatives to operate with a realistic assessment of how to achieve success.

Sadhana

Re Sadhana

Are you saying that we shouldn’t go for the big one? We should stop dreaming? We should measure failure or success with narrow, short-term goals? If the hurdles in our way are too difficult, we should give up?

In Pakistani jails, they are a lot more convincing and “practical” when they teach you lessons about why one should never challenge the status quo.

Policies of confrontations are not good for people of India and Pakistan. I will not accept twisted arguments in favour of going along with the rubbish GOP or GOI is hurling at people in the name of “pragmatic” foreign policies which we are told are in the best interest of us, the ordinary people. This is complete and utter BS. And if what I am saying is idealism, then so be it.

Rsaxena #202 Thanks for confirming the point on how Indo-Pak discussions on chowk tend to create divisions rather than promote understandings. I think I will try to stay away from them on chowk for now, for this reason.

Urstruly #203 I second your compliments to Rsaxena - it takes a real man to point to his own imperfections (there is obviously no similar Pashto proverb that applies to women, incidentally, and I think while you are in the business of improving on Pashto proverbs you should fix this shortcoming as well).

Sadhna #195

By the same token why is India occupying Kashmir. By the force of 700,000 people.

If there is any other recourse available except Jihad let me know.

I know what happened to Sikkim and Nagaland etc.

It is two sided.

As long as Kashmir is occupied by Indian forces, people will struggle to the best possible extent.

Your logic is twisted.

Kashmir is for Kashmiris. Whatever India says or Pakistan says.