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Reply #: 52

``nasah.......Dear Sameer:``]

Musharaf did placebo medicine on a terminal patient

All(most)Indians & misguided Pakistanis(who have no idea about common indians life)seem to me forgetting so soon that India occupies Kashmir ILLEGALLY.O.K. You may have accession papers from Hari Singh but two points nullify it 1)IT was too late & Ineffective because just b/c Monarchy oriented Britain of 47 says that the RAJA is gouing to decide the fate of millions of subjects flies into the face of democratic wave ever since 47 & 2)increases in tempo past 60s & here we are talking about new mellinium,& some Hari Singhs word will stay when the Mightier Moghuls & British have been packed & sent away.

So what is it .Ther fact is

1/ India occupies Kashmir by sheer force

2/ if India was a smaller country or smaller army ,it would have been evicted by the will of the people who live there.

3/Why blame Musharaf for the failure ,it is Indias obstinacy & ``hat dharmi`` that was expected & did happen,I dont think in Pakistan expected anything as Pakistanis understand Indian leaders better than dumb average gullible bhaiya indians.

4/Musharaff was like that dr, in movie Aanand dr. Bhasker who never believed his friend Anand will recover from Lymphosarcoma of the intestine.But when you have run out of all options you do silly things.Consider this Agra Summit as silly as giving homoeopathy to terminal case of cancer.

Call me stupid but in desperartion Musharaff did what he had to do,otherwise you would have blamed him for everything for not extending hand of friendship.Pakistanis have always been in the forefront of friendship.

5/ It is the hardliner Sangh Parivar who are most gleeful to learn that Agra summit was failure ,they dont want to have friendship with Pakistan,with there neumerical advantage ,& POSSESSION of Kashmir ,they are like the ``goonda`` in possession taunting the poor passenger to dare take there luggage back from them ,when there is no sign of law enforcement anywhere.

Reply #: 52

``nasah.......Dear Sameer:``]

Musharaf did placebo medicine on a terminal patient

All(most)Indians & misguided Pakistanis(who have no idea about common indians life)seem to me forgetting so soon that India occupies Kashmir ILLEGALLY.O.K. You may have accession papers from Hari Singh but two points nullify it 1)IT was too late & Ineffective because just b/c Monarchy oriented Britain of 47 says that the RAJA is gouing to decide the fate of millions of subjects flies into the face of democratic wave ever since 47 & 2)increases in tempo past 60s & here we are talking about new mellinium,& some Hari Singhs word will stay when the Mightier Moghuls & British have been packed & sent away.

So what is it .Ther fact is

1/ India occupies Kashmir by sheer force

2/ if India was a smaller country or smaller army ,it would have been evicted by the will of the people who live there.

3/Why blame Musharaf for the failure ,it is Indias obstinacy & ``hat dharmi`` that was expected & did happen,I dont think in Pakistan expected anything as Pakistanis understand Indian leaders better than dumb average gullible bhaiya indians.

4/Musharaff was like that dr, in movie Aanand dr. Bhasker who never believed his friend Anand will recover from Lymphosarcoma of the intestine.But when you have run out of all options you do silly things.Consider this Agra Summit as silly as giving homoeopathy to terminal case of cancer.

Call me stupid but in desperartion Musharaff did what he had to do,otherwise you would have blamed him for everything for not extending hand of friendship.Pakistanis have always been in the forefront of friendship.

5/ It is the hardliner Sangh Parivar who are most gleeful to learn that Agra summit was failure ,they dont want to have friendship with Pakistan,with there neumerical advantage ,& POSSESSION of Kashmir ,they are like the ``goonda`` in possession taunting the poor passenger to dare take there luggage back from them ,when there is no sign of law enforcement anywhere.

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Dear Sameer:



“ India`s acceptance of Kashmir as main or core dispute or issue between India/ Pakistan relationship is tantamount to Indian concession for no special reason. Any such concession, although desirable for Pakistan, actually has more negative consequences for secular and liberal Pakistanis. A concession from India is a perceived victory for Musharraf with no real benefit for Pakistanis. Such a move would have boasted the moral of jehadis as if their activities are bearing fruits. A prolonged agony under military dictator, an increase in the jehadi activities in Pakistan and abroad and reemergence of otherwise declining obsession with Kashmir issue would have been the natural consequences of Indian concession on Kashmir”.

You are exactly right. A very astute analysis, indeed.

As I had predicted in my earlier post -- by boxing himself in on ‘Kashmir and Kashmir alone’ -- what Mr. Musharraf wanted is to pull this time -- a diplomatic Kargil -- in Delhi.

And just like the old Kargil it ended up in yet another disaster -- the Delhi Disaster.

Without mincing words I must say that -- the fault for the failure of the summit lies squarely on the shoulders of the Soldier Musharraf -- and nobody else – who turned out to be a poor soldier in Kargil -- and a poor diplomat in Delhi.

The passive aggressive Indians had bent backwards to accommodate Mr. Musharraf and his inflated ego – which the Indians themselves had further inflated by “good morning Mr. President”.

Yes the passive aggressive Indians forgave him for the unnecessary Kargil killings of theirs and the Pakistani’s kids. They forgave him for destroying democracy in Pakistan, they forgave him for brandishing nuclear weapons to draw “world attention” on Kashmir, they forgave him for doubling and tripling the killing fields in Kashmir, they even retracted their demand that violence in Kashmir should stop before talks can be started.

Yet Mr. Musharraf and his cottiers of generals and advisors kept raising the stakes and poisoning the soup – by breaking the protocol of inviting guests without asking the hosts – by not including any trade and commerce ministers in the entourage -- by insisting on Kashmir and Kashmir alone – nothing else.

And this was supposed to be the so-called ‘open mind’ of Mr. Musharraf.

The straw that broke the camel’s back ( I am glad it did) is that in the very same weekend while the two sides were eating pilaf, qorma and kebab in Delhi, professing peace -- the killings in Kashmir were quadrupled with 90 lives lost.

What was that for? – to show the world that the Indians capitulated because the great strategist Mr. Musharraf had increased the level of violence the same weekend?

For that matter Mr. Musharraf could have as well met Mr. Vajpayee in Paniput – instead of Agra.

So in the first Peace Exam of the subcontinent – by wasting all their limited exam period on the most difficult question Kashmir, first – Mr. Musharraf gets F and Mr. Vajpayee gets C.

Hopefully in the next exam the two candidates will do better by doing the easy questions first.

And hopefully by the next exam the examinees from Pakistan side would be a legitimately elected CIVILIAN head of the government not some egotistical evangelical general.

Soldiers are not cut out either for governing or for diplomacy.

Peace.

#51 tahmed321

``Another point: I see lots of posts on chowk on how great things are in India and how Pakistan is the pits. Please explain to me, therefore, the fact that despite everything, when all is said and done, there are millions of people from Bangladesh, from India and from Afghanistan who are trying to get into Pakistan and live there, and virtually no Pakistani who is struggling to get there. ``

Why the afghans go to pakistan is quite clear. But the bit about indians is news to me. Where did you get this from? How are the indians getting there - you mean kashmiris? Do you mean the indians who are being trained by the LeT and Hizb? Please enlighten.

You are quite the fool tahmed. No has claimed india is a land of milk and honey. What Sadhana has been arguing is that it is not sufficient (indeed it is foolish) to rely on the inherent goodness of people to run a civil society. It is necessary to have legal safeguards to ensure that things are left standing despite beastly tendencies by members of the society. Most pakistanis including you seem to poohpooh this. Good for you as long as you are at the giving end. But when you are at the receiving end, the inherent human kindness is not going to save you.

Instead of answering Sadhana (tenacious, isn`t she) you take shelter under silly hypotheses.

hamidm #45 ``the fault, dear hobbyty, is not in our stars, but in ourselves that we are underlings ``

Actually, for once I think the stars do have something to do with our problems and we can stop flagellating ourselves. Hitler came to power in Germany and lead them into a disastrous war not because Germans are cowards or stupid. Kings and feudals did not impose their will on people in every part of the world until the the 19th century because previous generations were cowardly or stupid.

Another point: I see lots of posts on chowk on how great things are in India and how Pakistan is the pits. Please explain to me, therefore, the fact that despite everything, when all is said and done, there are millions of people from Bangladesh, from India and from Afghanistan who are trying to get into Pakistan and live there, and virtually no Pakistani who is struggling to get there.

I am not saying that the situation will not change in fifteen years if India keeps growing at 3-4 basis points more than Pakistan, but it has not happened yet. So, dont get carried away too easily by popular wisdom on chowk.

#48 Bapu quotes:

``Before the late-night statement, the mood in the Pakistani camp

was euphoric. The impression was that history was being created

in the shadow of the Taj.``

The summit went predictably. Unless Vajpayee had some information via track II that Mushy was going to change his tune, the whole thing was expected. What was the pak camp euphoric about?

All Vajpayee has done is legitimize a dictator. It may be true that only the pak army is the real power and any accord that does not have its blessings is doomed. But THIS army and this dictator know only one tune. Vajpayee would be wasting his time going to islamabad. India should demand that civilian rule be restored in pakistan. India should try its best to strengthen a civilian government there by making concessions to it. No concessions to Mushy. Down with the dictator!

Dear Bapu:

Sushma Swaraj is certainly not ``my`` Disnformation Minister.

In my view alongwith Advani she is still part of that unreformed Bamiyani criminals who destroyed a historical monument and a religious symbol -- the Babri Masjid -- and are still running free from law.

Dear Sarwar:

Thanks for the post.

My salute to Imam Bukhari for puncturing the delusional bubble of Mr. Geelani`s self promotion. Kashmir is NOT the personal property of Mr. Geelani and his Hurriyet ``handfuls``.

#31

NASAH

First .look at your esteemed Minister of Information Shushma Swaraj ex mayor of your home town & Bjp big wig in the NAD cabinet.For an Information Minister to give DISINFORMATION of this proportion to cause rattling of media right across the border to Pakistan should be Blashphemous;)))))

SUSHMA GIFTS PAK KASHMIR EXCUSE



FROM IDREES BAKHTIAR



Agra, July 15:

Promiscuous with words, information minister Sushma Swaraj brought forth a stinging midnight response from the Pakistani side to her careless comment that cross-border terrorism had been discussed during the summit-level talks today.

Breaking the day-long diplomatic secrecy, for which Swaraj set the stage, the unilateral statement by Pakistan¡¦s spokesman claimed that ¡§Kashmir had been the focus of discussion in the one-to-one meeting held between the President of Pakistan and the Prime Minister of India¡¨.

Pervez Musharraf is understood to have immediately sought a meeting with Atal Bihari Vajpayee after Swaraj¡¦s remarks on television. Worried about the impact back home, Pakistani officials issued a denial on PTV for the consumption of the domestic audience.

Pakistan spokesman Rashid Quereshi¡¦s late-night statement was a riposte to Swaraj¡¦s claim in the afternoon that four subjects were discussed in the one-to-one talks between Vajpayee and Musharraf in their pre-lunch meeting, one of these being the touchy topic of alleged cross-border terrorism.

¡§However, in her statement to the media she had omitted to mention the extensive discussions between the two leaders on Kashmir,¡¨ the statement said.

¡§President Pervez Musharraf had made it plain to his host that no progress could be made towards normalisation of relations between the two countries unless the issue of Kashmir was resolved in accordance with the wishes of the people of Kashmir,¡¨ the spokesman said.

Though the statement comes after Vajpayee and Musharraf have held two rounds of talks and there have been official and ministerial meetings, it cannot yet be construed as conclusive evidence that the talks are on the verge of breakdown.

Even if it is accepted that Musharraf made Kashmir the focus of discussions, the Pakistani spokesman indicated that Vajpayee had indeed sought to widen the ambit of the talks.

¡§However, the Prime Minister of India had referred to certain other issues in his opening remarks at the first plenary session. President Musharraf had responded that Pakistan was willing to discuss those issues as well but no other issue could be addressed unless the core issue was discussed and resolved. Progress on Kashmir had to be in tandem with progress on other issues,¡¨ the spokesman said.

Before the late-night statement, the mood in the Pakistani camp was euphoric. The impression was that history was being created in the shadow of the Taj.

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Nasah 31:

I was just browing through this article and the related interacts when I ran into your ``A fresh line in cosmetics.``

Haif...Sud Haif...

:(

Someone said it right, ``Never judge a book by its cover.``

Take Care.

hobbyty

``It is a mistake to see Mr. Musharraf and his team from the prism of radical Liberal ideology and conclude that he is the destroyer of democracy, it is his stated goal to save it.``

........ it is nice to be an optimist but this lack of belief in the principle of democracy has led us to where we are .... too many of us have been willing to suffer fools, prophets and dictators because we were either too lazy or too naive or just plain old stupid .....so now we are hoping that this idiot in khaki will be different from ayub and yahya and zia ....we are willing to believe that he is driven by patriotism and altruistic crap and will not give in to the venal traits that afflicted his predecessors ..... the people of pakistan are responsible for their own miseries because they lack the moral spine, gonads, courage and conviction to stand up for their rights .... we will follow anyone who raises the slogan of islam and democracy and then cry foul when they fail to deliver ....... at some point one has to drive a stake in the ground and stand up to be counted instead of dawdling and offering mealy-mouthed apologies for obvious sins ........

........ two years from now when musharraf is mysteriously killed and a new general takes over with backing from a turabi-wannabe we will again take to the streets and sing his praises ...... shame on us for being such fickle idiots ! ...... the fault, dear hobbyty, is not in our stars, but in ourselves that we are underlings ...........

Oops, sorry. Didn`t realize that the tyranny of the majority bit was also from the letter to the editor.

Re: Nasah #42

You are probably referring to J. S. Mill`s ``On Liberty.`` Unfortunately, we are not as advanced or as progressive, at least as far as free speech or thought is concerned, as Mill`s England was about a hundred and fifty years ago.

Regards.

The blasphemy lynching ``law`` in the Mulla land of Mr. P.(for progressive) Musharraf.

``False blasphemy charges

(a letter to the editor by a baffled Pakistani)

Recently I read the news that the daily Mohasib of Abbotabad had been banned and its editor and other staff had been arrested under the Blasphemy Law for publishing an article about the sanctity of the beard in Islam.

I got curious and procured the said article and have gone through it very minutely.

I am surprised that anyone who is in his right senses should have considered this article blasphemous.

It is a simple article in which the writer has merely stated that to the best of his knowledge of the Quran and Hadis he could not find anything in them enjoining upon the Muslims to wear a beard, that no doubt the Prophet (PBUH) and his companions did wear beards but in those days it was customary to wear one and all Mushriks, Christians and Jews wore beards.

He pleaded with the learned ulema to enlighten him on the subject lest he should have missed the lines in the Quran or the relevant Ahadis.

What was wrong with such a query? I do not think that seeking knowledge is blasphemous.

Someone has said that, of all the tyrannies the world has known, the tyranny of the public opinion is the worst. I cannot recollect his name, he is certainly right in saying so.

This brings to mind the case of Galleleo who was at the point of being burnt at the stakes for saying that the Earth was not the centre of the universe and revolved around the Sun and had to retract his scientific finding before the king and was made to swear that he was wrong and that the Earth did not revolve around the Sun but the Sun revolved around it (even though he mumbled at the same time that `nevertheless the Earth does revolve around the Sun` whereupon his detractors shouted that he was resiling from his oath but the king, who was apparently a wise one, spared his life saying that he had not heard the retraction.

However, while the mullahs and the masses may be excused for their ignorance and pitied and prayed for, what should we say about the functionaries of the state who also stoop down to their level?

Just imagine! A case has been registered against the staff of the daily paper and it has been banned in advance before it could be found guilty.

The people who have brought the charge of blasphemy against the newspaper and its editors and printers and the writer of the article are obviously themselves guilty of blasphemy because they are misrepresenting the Prophet (PBUH) and his teachings.

The Prophet (PBUH) never said that we should close our minds, nor does the Quran says so.

On the contrary both the Quran and the Prophet (PBUH) exhort the Muslims to inquire and apply their mind if they are in doubt about anything. These people are doing great disservice to Islam by this attitude towards it. May God have mercy upon us Pakistani Muslims.

I would expect that the press all over the country shall rise against such an attack on the freedom of the press and against such attempts to silence open thinking and will do whatever it can to help the innocent. At any rate the printers, publishers and editors, and the paper itself, are not to be blamed. At the most it is the writer who may have been booked under the Blasphemy Law.

SALAHUDDIN MIRZA

Karachi``(Dawn)

After that land of Jahilia Afghanistan -- only in Pakistan, folks.

Those illiterate Pakistani Talibans and their illiterate army administrators -- the cherished children of Mulla Omar.

As if the House of Islam is a House of Cards -- one whisper about the Prophet and the whole House will collapse into smithereens. Such stupendously insecure morons!

But, #33, dharma does not refer to any particular book, prophet, conception of god, ritual, place of worship, religion.

-Arun Gupta