How Would Gandhi Answer This Attack?

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My comments to continued references of Indian writers and commentators of what Gandhi would think about violent events with reference to Gandhiji`s non-violent movement leading to India`s freedom from British Empire are somewhat hypocritical since the first question that these people should ask is ``What Gandhi would think about half a million Indian troops in Kashmir and the brutality of Indian Troops there. Also, how about peace loving Gandhi`s view on India having Nukes? and about Israel`s Ariel Sharon calling the recently assasinated hard-line minister as a Gandhi of Israel? Nobody in India protested to Israel on using Gandhi`s name synonymous to the hard-line and anti-peace minister of Israel. My personal feeling is that Indial should stop quoting Gandhi too often since India no more has the guts to stand by peace as Gandhi did.

Ref Ras Siddiqui #: 93

[Mahatma Gandhi is a person I admire greatly.

He sought to appeal to the goodness in mankind to find solutions to political differences. BUT he was dealing mainly with the British who played by many rules. They knew how to conduct business

and soon became aware that Gandhi was good for their overall scheme of things too.

Gandhi succeeded in giving the British an honorable exit from India in his own unique way.

Against people who have few rules he did not last very long. The Hindu fanatics and current ``Islamic`` terrorists would not let him live, let alone handle this current case of mass murder at the WTC.]

Gandhi went to Calcutta after Direct Action Day and by his presence calmed the city.

Gandhi went to Noakhali in Bengal in August 1947 at the height of the worst Hindu-Muslim killings. He stopped the killings by his presence.

But those were the days when you did not have mullahs and maulanas preaching hatred; only politicians like Suhrawardy. And Jinnah who exploited him.

Those were the times when you did not have wide availability of audiotapes so that venom could be spread by even a small number of people.

Those were the days when Hindus and Muslims respected each other`s differences by leading their lives in their own way but did not go out of the way to assault each other.

Those were the days when the ``Satanic Verses`` did not gain popular currency.

That is why, when Gandhi went to visit the Governor of Bengal, the entire staff of Government House, mostly Muslims, came out and stood in line to have a `darshan` of that Great Soul.

A word, `mahatma`, on which Jinnah choked.

You are right, though. Gandhi would not have a snowball`s chance in hell before Mullah Omar. Not content with multiple wives on earth, Mullah Omar is greedily awaiting his 72 houris in jannat.

Mahatma Gandhi is a person I admire greatly.
He sought to appeal to the goodness in mankind to find solutions to political differences. BUT he was dealing mainly with the British who played by many rules. They knew how to conduct business
and soon became aware that Gandhi was good for their overall scheme of things too.
Gandhi succeeded in giving the British an honorable exit from India in his own unique way.

Against people who have few rules he did not last very long. The Hindu fanatics and current ``Islamic`` terrorists would not let him live, let alone handle this current case of mass murder at the WTC.

Ras
would not let him

Stuka: Who`s enemy am I?

Appreciate what you said. At least you are honest enough to declare that you are the enemy.

Appreciate what you said. At least you are honest enough to declare that you are the enemy.

YLH: Firstly, armchair intellects whove done NOTHING, should not be running their mouths about people like Gandhi. PERIOD. I agree with no man completely, but this great soul actually stood up for something. Before your ass was even born he was leading salt marches, protesting Indian racism in S. Africa (not african...) and organizing the framework for an independent India. Consider that, please... Also, some of his political views and opinions on technology were far fetched (granted) but he was a SPIRITUAL person, you cant analyze him with a secular mindset (ie his opinions on dying rather then fighting back)...

Stuka: ``People who live by the sword should die by the sword. I`m not interested in the redemption of fundamentalists, not interested in learning the ``reason`` it happened, certainly not interested in Gandhian philosophy. Just want them dead...``

Thats like something I would say...

Its just that when these words come from America, well I take that with a bucket of salt. The entire United Snakes stands on a FOUNDATION of terrorism, howinnahell can it accuse anyone of anything??? If bin laden is the guy, ideally the US would get his ass. The US, being the bloodsuckers they are, would rather kill a million afghans, this act would settle their collective grieving souls... Afghanistan already said they would turn laden In if the United snakes provided some evidence of his guilt. The United Snakes have not, mainly because they have None.

This is the pattern of American foriegn policy, kill anyone in your way-till u get what u want. These animals have even implicated Iraq (on what?!)

American foriegn policy is the greatest ``EVIL`` the world has ever seen, PERIOD. And lol at Bush using the word Evil like this is a superman comic...

Sadna, NYC Chowkies

This should be the final word. A meeting of many coalition groups and individuals will be gathering for an anti-war meeting in NYC on:

Wednesday, 7:00 p.m.

Local 1199/SEIU

Martin Luther King Center Auditorium

310 West 43rd St.

(b/n 8th and 9th Aves.)

212-242-4201 for details

Apparently the original venue was too small for all the people interested in participating.

Even if you are not sure where you stand, show up to check it out. Did any NYC Chowkies see the Tibetan monks praying on Union Square?

Regards!

ylh

Little boy, I am the first to say Gandhi is irrelevant. He is as irrelevant as Mohammad, Christ, and Buddha. None of them taught people how to deal with fools like you and fanatics like your you, urstruly, and hobbyty who understand nothing but latein.

YLH

I agree with the substance of your last post. But, I do wish that your fellow countrymen let go the past and concentrate on the present. They are still more worried about India. The danger to Pakistan`s east maybe to Kashmir. The danger to your west threatens your way of life and your nation`s existence. Don`t be blind to it.

saminashah #84
You are just the person I was looking for !:)

As someone I know was enquiring about peace petitions and peace activities in NYC, I retrieved your earlier chowk post about the petition to the US government. Re the Brecht Forum, is there any more contact or general information available on the activities planned by them in this regard, which are the other groups participating and how to contact them?

Thanks very much in advance.

Sadhana
(sadna123@mail.com)

NYC Chowkwallahs,

I`m sure you already know about the peace vigils on Union Square. Apparently there are progressive coalition organizations that are trying to work the progressive community`s voice into Sunday`s Central Park memorial service.

One progressive group uses their Jewish holidays to bear witness to Jewish/Israeli participation in the oppression of Jews and non Jews, and also renew their vows to progressive commitments. I think that this is a profound manifestation of spirituality.In my personal opinion, the purpose of sprituality is to protect and respect the humanity of our sisters and brothers everywhere.

There is supposted to be a peace demonstration on Wednesday at the Brecht Forum ( I know, it was supposed to be last Sunday), and we are advised to call the Forum in NYC to confirm timing. I really hope to see some NYC Chowkies there!

Best Wishes

Rsaxena:

`He was attempting a jab at India and Gandhi, that was his only intention. Nothing wrong with that - many of us, including me, do it. `

Rsaxena suffers from the disease of judging everyone by his own standards.... It is incomprehensible to him that some of us unlike him are honest in our words.

Stuka,

You are absolutely right... In any event my criticism of Gandhi was not an attempt to spark violence, but for Gandhian Indians to expect us to shut up and let go of intellectual honesty when they claim that Gandhi stood for Modernity Democracy and Secularism.... when Gandhi`s own work deny that claim.

Had they replied by giving the example of Nehru and his role (though sometimes hypocritical considering Kashmir and Goa) in the world to keep peace and for non aligned Movement, I would have appreciated it.

Let us accept it, India is Secular Democracy ideally because of Nehru... Pakistan falls short

because Pakistan was ruled by a bunch of `Chamberlains` after Jinnah`s death, who might have been as Modern secular or Democratic as Jinnah or Nehru in India, but didnot have the resolve.

Gandhi like Rusdhie argues is irrelevant to India .. his ideals are irrelevant ....

WHY THEY HATE US SO MUCH?

That is the question every sane mind in US is asking these days. One must keep in mind as well that the first impulsive reaction throughout the Third World in general and Middle East in particular, when this tragedy happened, was that of jubilation. People looked with awe the demise of the myth of invulnerability of United States. The myth is no more. The beast can be brought down to its knees. Soon the compassion for the innocent lives took over and grief sunk in. The US and Western media is desperately trying to tone down this initial impulsive reaction of the Third World. Because US government does not want to face the question “why they hate us so much?” at this time.

US media is also trying to tone down the hate crimes against the people of Middle East and South Asian origin. The wave of hate has spread across the continents; lives and properties of colored people are being destroyed; and their places of worship are being set on fire. The tragedy has unleashed the inherent racial hatred in these societies. US media has failed to bring these crimes in the light because the last thing that US government wants is people asking “why they hate us so much”

One may assume that this time it wont be easy for US government to dodge this question. But that is not true. The power of propaganda and media will again be used to exploit the situation. Lets admit it that FBI and CIA have utterly failed in preventing this tragedy to happen. But with in hours they were able to find their bogeyman. The main brunt of American indignation has already been directed towards Taliban and OBL. Warnings have been issued to the nations who ``support” the terrorists. “Pakistan will be given one opportunity to prove where it stands” are the words of GW Bush. The arrogance of this nation knows no bounds. Is this the protocol to address a sovereign nation who has already pledged its support?

Lets face it, the American leaders are no visionary. America desperately needs a war to prove its leadership to the world. It is abundantly clear that US will delay or prevent the handing over of Osama Bin Laden. It is clear that US will impose some impossible conditions on Taliban to do so.

A couple of months ago I was ridiculed at Chowk for hypothesizing a scenario where US will be threatening Pakistan with “our way or the highway”. The dreaded time has come rather quickly. US is parked in the Arabian sea right now, off the coast of Karachi, threatening the whole region, including Pakistan. So the hypothetical scenario based on the contention that US will excess anywhere whenever it will like, has come true. The arrogance of this nation is once again threatening the world peace.

Whether or not OBL did it; whether or not Taliban knew or not, US has no right to slaughter innocent Afghans to prove its leadership. The Afghans are as innocent as the people in the WTC were. We must speak up to prevent this circle of violence from revolving again. It is amoral. Period.

Pakistan and Taliban must understand that US will stop at nothing. They must forget about asking for the “credible evidence” crap, because there wont be any. No reasoning will work here because the main purpose of this aggression is not to prevent terrorism, its main purpose to make a statement that US is still the leader.

The best course of action for Pakistan and Taliban at this stage is to hand over OBL to a neutral European country (which is an oxymoron) as soon as possible-Pakistan must involve China and make full use of media to prevent US from creating hurdles in this hand over.

In the end I would request all to SPEAK UP against any aggression against people of Afghanistan. Because the next country facing the cruise missiles would be yours. It is time that Americans learn to live in this world with peace and resolve their issues peacefully.

SPEAK UP IF YOU BELIEVE IN “HUMANS FIRST”

Stuka #72: Once again, you could be right and I could be wrong. However, there are two things that always happen before a country invades Afghanistan. They are convinced, ``this time`` the invasion will be easy. And years later, these same countries are running away with their tails between their legs. This time people are again assuming the same first point. I don`t know how the second point will turn out.

Pakistani military has for a decades trained many Middle East military officers. We used to call their cadets, ``Baddoos.`` Every single Pakistani soldier will tell you that these Middle Easterners are terrible fighters; much worse than Pakistanis. However, talk to any Pakistani soldier, and he will tell you that Afghanis are excellent fighters; better than Pakistanis. So I don`t know what the US is going to do differently than what has been attempted before. And I don`t know whether China, Russia or Iran are going to not be too encouraged by bogging down USA, and seeing the USA get defeated and thus humiliated. And this may be worth taking a risk in Sinkiang and Chechnya. Infact, they could get the Afghans on their side if they oppose the US, and thus stop the efforts in Sinkiang.

``The United States might have to do some unconventional thinking if they want local support. Firstly, start with precise and limited Air warfare. Secondly, usage of ground troops is a must to present a human face to the local population.``

This human face and rebuilding is the only way to handle terrorism, and I think you have hit the nail on the head. However, the US high command seems to not have the skills of unconventional thinking. I have yet to see a single debate by anyone in the US trying to figure out the cause of this problem. They seem to be still arrogantly trying to put together a coalition thru force. And they still are in a state of denial about anything the US has done wrong to espouse so much hatred against itself. They are still arguing for force to, ``win the war.`` It hasn`t worked before against terrorism. How in the world will it work now?

There is a subtle understanding amongst even European countries and Canada that terrorists only target the USA. The US leaders need to understand this and accept that their are many people in the world who view the US and Israel as the biggest terrorists, and have no interest in attacking other countries. So not too many countries are going to be willing to send in soldiers. Until the US high command becomes a bit more humble and realistic in its dealings, I doubt we will see the human face you have mentioned. And I don`t see any US leader mentioning this. There attitude seems to be form a coalition. If somebody doesn`t join, force them. And then attack. This may work against Iraq, but not against invisible terrorist networks.

I think the terrorist network is like the internet, and OBL (if guilty) is just one of the ISPs. Getting him is not going to solve the problem. It cannot be solved on the supply side. It has to be solved on the demand side.

``I hate to bring the example of Kashmir here because of its controversial nature, but just want to present an example. In certain areas, the Army has done a lot of recruitment of civil labor and has built infrastructure. This has given the local population a stake in the Army, and popular support exists.``

In regard to Kashmir, I think the best thing that India can do is rebuild it and make it economically prosperous. If it does that, the people of Kashmir will vote to join India. That is human nature. I would definitely support their decision to join India, if they vote that way. However, just like the US, India is more powerful in the area, and has felt that the best solution is a forceful one, without trying to figure out why the locals are so angry. And hence the human face policy is not pursued.

Power sometimes makes countries make the wrong decision.