I Hate Ashley Giles

its gr8....a sort of autobiography....sweet attempt....Luv Ankit

Unlike SRT........

Hussain`s is the example to follow

Prem Panicker reflects on the England skipper`s reaction to the quality

of umpiring in the Kolkata ODI last Saturday.

http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/jan/21diary.htm

Re: gfm

Wait a minute! Yes you said that you thought SRT was better than DC but then you laced on several disclaimers regarding ‘guts & determination’ and 2nd inning averages and what not. Anywho…

About SRT’s dismissal against Flintoff. See what I mean about that silly shot through midwicket? The reason why he gets bowled to Razzaq, Nash, Cronje, Flintoff and the like playing this same shot can be attributed to boredom and lack of respect for these bowlers more than fear of pace which a lot of people claim. He should just learn as great as he is that he just doesn’t have the bat speed like Viv or even Gilchrist, Cairns or Afridi for that matter.

I thought he had put that shot in the dustbin a while ago so it was disappointing to see him employ it again with such disastrous consequences.

I think he will score at least one hundred in the series. In a lot of ways the key is Ganguly. If Ganguly keeps it rotating early then SRT seems to flourish. But every time Ganguly gets bogged down and eats up 45 balls from the first ten, you’ll find SRT give it up near the end of field restrictions. You may have noticed him getting scores like 35 off 30 balls and get out in the 13-14th over. Well that’s because Ganguly on the other end is playing at 25 off 50 which compels ST to take more risks.

Anyway, it was an interesting discussion for me too. Hope to run into you again next year when Chowk prints another cricket article that is not a verbatim ball-by-ball match report by that Murtaza dude.

Late.

You know Pbum....I am liking this argument.

Firstly you`ve said

``disagreed on all accounts`` to my statements.

Even though in my previous reply I had stated that compton is better than Sachin. Which unless you disagree, as per your reply is quite the contrary.

It just goes back to your argument that it is hard to judge the greatest batsman against different years as well as criteria of ``greatestness.`` Now if I judge the greatness of a batsman against temperment versus averages and centuries scored, then people like Miandad and Grenidge come to mind.

Well I suppose we can`t fuss about this argument for ever. As you said I have my opinions and you have yours.

Hobbs - you believe that in his time fielders hardly field as they do now (a good point) but your forget that in England there was no protection against the quicks and wickets were more under prepared than they are now, allowing for more grass hence more seam and turn. (Dillip Doshi in his book states that an off-spinner can turn the ball on a green wicket in May in England)

That is why Wisden (though heavily biased in other areas) rates Hobbs in the top 5 of all great players.

Anyway, as a parting note may SRT help India win a tour overseas and the WC.

However what was SRT thinking in the ODI at Eden Gardens trying to hoik right arm over rubbish Flintoff over square leg?

Should score at least a couple of 100s against the poms.....

You know Pbum....I am liking this argument.

Firstly you`ve said

``disagreed on all accounts`` to my statements.

Even though in my previous reply I had stated that compton is better than Sachin. Which unless you disagree, as per your reply is quite the contrary.

It just goes back to your argument that it is hard to judge the greatest batsman against different years as well as criteria of ``greatestness.`` Now if I judge the greatness of a batsman against temperment versus averages and centuries scored, then people like Miandad and Grenidge come to mind.

Well I suppose we can`t fuss about this argument for ever. As you said I have my opinions and you have yours.

Hobbs - you believe that in his time fielders hardly field as they do now (a good point) but your forget that in England there was no protection against the quicks and wickets were more under prepared than they are now, allowing for more grass hence more seam and turn. (Dillip Doshi in his book states that an off-spinner can turn the ball on a green wicket in May in England)

That is why Wisden (though heavily biased in other areas) rates Hobbs in the top 5 of all great players.

Anyway, as a parting note may SRT help India win a tour overseas and the WC.

However what was SRT thinking in the ODI at Eden Gardens trying to hoik right arm over rubbish Flintoff over square leg?

Should score at least a couple of 100s against the poms.....

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re:hydra

“And what exactly have `mullah` done to you ?Whois you role model inthe west among the female ?Jewish girls & catholic Sarah McLoghlin never deride rabbi or pope ?”

…sigh…as usual, you’ve missed the point by about a mile…what i said was that anwar’s joined the mullah brigade….ie, he’s put off playing cricket (for the time being, i hope) to concentrate on more….um…non-worldly desires…pak’s batting is suspect as it is, so it hurts to see such talent not be used…notice, i didn’t say anything abt mullahs, per se…but as usual, you’ll miss the point again , and make whatever you want of it….

…ps…even nice muslim girls wouldn’t dare deride the pope…he’s too cute…

#22

...hmmm...well, i`m going to hold you up to this...i still say stats wats can be thrown out the window anytime...but now that i think of it you may be on to smt...looks like anwar has decided to join the mullah brigade...sigh...maybe he`ll start scoring at the rate his beard`s growing....

And what exactly have `mullah` done to you ?Whois you role model inthe west among the female ?Jewish girls & catholic Sarah McLoghlin never deride rabbi or pope ?

gfm

“And this goes towards my greatest criticism of SRT - that he doesn`t handle pressure well - a mark of many of the greatest.``

….that and in no way is he cut out to be a leader….but that said, sachin is sachin….

pbum:

``My dear semiprecious,

Saeed Anwar is 34, if he plays for another 10 years I will be a blue monkey’s momma!! Anyway, Anwar scores a ton every 12 games as an opener. My projections are based on 30 ODIs a year. If I give Anwar the same projections as Tendulkar he will end up with 29 hundreds. Ganguly is the one who projects the best after Tendulkar, he should end up with 42 if all goes well. Obviously the openers are the ones who stand any chance at the total ODI century record.``

...hmmm...well, i`m going to hold you up to this...i still say stats wats can be thrown out the window anytime...but now that i think of it you may be on to smt...looks like anwar has decided to join the mullah brigade...sigh...maybe he`ll start scoring at the rate his beard`s growing....

Banjara,

I haven’t watched much cricket of pre 1970 so I cant make definite assessment regarding your points but from what little I have gleaned, the out-fielding was terrible. Game planning & Field strategies were also non-existent. I think these factors over-ride the factors like exposed pitches, lack of headgear & absence of bouncer & beamer restrictions. All you have to do is look at the scores they made in those days.

Players who played back then tend to glorify their respective eras. This probably explains why Bradman has Ironmonger listed as one of the great spinners!!

I remember an interview with Pankaj Roy just before he died where he claimed that none of the current bowlers except Lee & Akhtar would be considered ‘fast’ back when he played. He though Lindwall & Miller both pushed 95 mph regularly and described how Lindwall used to beam him all the time. The one thing he did say that actually made some sense is that Batsmen seem to have developed the tendency to play away from their body too often. I think this is true just based on what I have seen. I guess you can ‘blame’ ODI for that.

Although I do think that there is a certain kind of player (usually a southpaw) who relies on his eye more than his feet (Ganguly, Anwar, Lara) and a few righties (Laxman, Cairnes). When their eye is in, they just blaze away but they are prone to long stretches of slumps due to their inherently faulty technique. Maybe the incidence of such players is greater these days because their successes are magnified by the more forgiving format of the ODIs.

pbum & gfm

Intresting discussion on great batsmen from both

of you.More power and more discussions.However,

both of you seem to miss one pertinent point viz

the preactice of covered pitches from late 70s.

Prior to that,the elements had a great influence

on batting and batsmanship.What is your take on

that and also dont forget the modern protective

gears including helmet.

Regards.

Dear gfm,

Disagreed on all counts!

1.Regarding Hobbs. I reiterate my argument that his scores and averages are greatly inflated because back in the day these guys would flay Sunday league bowling and then get hammered on stout. They used to score 3500 first class runs each season because they played a ton of games against any town that had a mine & a pub. Just look his test average, its 60 against horrible fielding. And I cant believe how otherwise intelligent people keep bringing up this fallacious argument that sub-continental players have higher averages because they play on flat tracks while his lordship over here with the bad teeth needs to be credited for playing the seaming ball. I’d like to see Hobbs play quality spin. If batting in sub-continent was easy then wouldn’t Mark Waugh & Brian Lara just go to town when they tour India? How come all these white dudes who pooh pooh Tendulkar’s average because he plays half his games in India don’t have higher averages when they come to India? How come the great Ricky Ponting shivers like a little schoolgirl who’s seen King Kong when he sees Venkatapathi Raju??

2.Regarding Compton. What Ashes are you talking about?? In the early half of the century the Aussies dominated England. The lordships had to resort to tricks like Bodyline and even then Bradman & McCabe embarrassed them. If you’re talking about 53 or 56/57, Compton’s averages were pretty pedestrian. Compton averages 42 lifetime against the Aussies and Tendulkar 54. I rest my case!

3.Regarding Barry. Like I said before, Barry Richards averages 54 in first class cricket. In plain English therefore: Barry Richards performs as well against Kwa-zulu Natal, Glamorgan, Cheshire & horsemanureshire as Tendulkar performs against one of the best teams in the history of the game.

Pbum

P.S: And actually Compton played quite a bit in the sub-continent. He played for the ‘Europeans’ in the Indian circuit and also for the Maharaja of Holkar.

Okay Pbum,

In the continuing and healthy argument of our cricketing debate allow me to defend the Compton, Barry Richards and Jack Hobbs comparison to the great Sachin Tedulkar.

Firstly Jack Hobbs. The statistics that you have sprewned on what SRT will make in the future bares more resemblence to what Hobbs did. Granted Hobb`s career was more focused towards first class cricket as in those days you only played tests against the aussies and the kiwis. But still, his achievements for those times with pot bellied fielders who hated running is still quite remarkable considering it is easier to bat in India, SL and Pakistan where the ball doesn`t swing or seam unlike England.

To Mr. Compton. Okay I give you this one. SRT is better than Compton. But Compton more or less was the main factor in an amazing ashes series behind the defeat of the aussies. He had the guts and determination - willing to play the long knocks in the 2nd innings against the great foe. Your 47 average for SRT`s 2nd innings seems a little low for the greatest batsman since the Don. And this goes towards my greatest criticism of SRT - that he doesn`t handle pressure well - a mark of many of the greatest.

Thirdly to Barry Richards. Yes apartheid cut his career short. But his 74 average was against some high class fast bowling not like ahzar who scored it on the flat track wickets of the sub-continent against crappy english spinners like edmond and embruey. Also for Barry - he was the 2nd highest run getter in the Kerry Packer series after Sir Viv and that was against world class bowling.

Had he been allowed to play I reckon as do many other experts that he would have re-written the record books.



Dear gfm,

Obviously any semblance of consensus here seems far-fetched so here are some parting notes:

1. I am not using religion as a pretext for anything. I was merely giving you a heads up regarding my nick lest you go bonkers with these ‘b u m’ insults. The reason I rebuked you was because you based you argument on a blatant lie. Saying that SRT averages 30 in the 2nd innings is like saying Imran Nazir is better than Zaheer Abbas!

2. Comparing players of different eras for obvious reasons has its pitfalls but one thing is for sure, my conclusion regarding relative potency of bowling attacks over various eras would be diametrically opposite to yours. If you were to research various aspects like bowler’s strike rates, batting averages, average team totals & frequency of results in tests you would reach a pretty irrefutable conclusion that batting today is much tougher than ever before. All you have to do is watch some tapes of the various performances you laude such as SMG in 71, the quality of field settings and fielding itself is absolutely laughable!

3. If you include SRT in the same elite group as Sobers, Viv & the Don, it seems like a reasonable assessment but you only tarnish the sanctity of this group by pulling in Hobbs, Compton & Barry Richards. Why these dudes? I mean while you’re at it let’s start throwing in Ponsford, Sutcliff, Hammond, Pollock, Gavaskar, Border! Hobbs is terribly over-rated. The pomms have this fetish with those who are prolific scorers in the counties. If you ask them Greame Hick is the best thing since sliced bread! Jack Hobbs averaged less than Tendulkar in an era where pot-bellied fielders applauded pushes past point all the way to the boundary lest their whites get sullied! Dennis Compton averages less than Rahul Dravid! And my favorite! Barry Richards the dumb ass! This dude played 4 tests in his lifetime and averages 72. Well Azhar averaged 90 after his first 4! Barry Richards has a first class average of like 54! Barry Richards indeed!

4. Here’s what Tendulkar will end up with in all likelihood if he stays relatively healthy and plays till 38:

Test runs: 16000 (next best 11000)

Test tons: 50 (next best 35)

ODI runs: 23000 (next best 10000)

ODI tons: 75 (next best 19!!!)

Lets see you compare him to Hobbs, Compton & Barry Richards then!

Nice Chatting.

My dear semiprecious,

Saeed Anwar is 34, if he plays for another 10 years I will be a blue monkey’s momma!! Anyway, Anwar scores a ton every 12 games as an opener. My projections are based on 30 ODIs a year. If I give Anwar the same projections as Tendulkar he will end up with 29 hundreds. Ganguly is the one who projects the best after Tendulkar, he should end up with 42 if all goes well. Obviously the openers are the ones who stand any chance at the total ODI century record. For your perusal below is a ranking of the most prolific openers in ODI.

I rank them using a century frequency statistic. Opened innings divided by no. of centuries.

1. Tendulkar – 6

2. Ganguly – 10

3. Anwar – 12

4. Astle – 12

5. Haynes – 12

6. Grennidge – 12

As you can see our boy SRT is head and shoulders above! To give you an idea of how good the above group is at getting centuries, the great Matara Mauler himself, Sanath Jayasurya gets a century every 22 innings!!

pbum

“ODI tons: 75 (next best 19!!!)”

…..right now, saeed anwar has 19 centuries….are u saying that he’s not going to improve on that?…in the next 10 yrs?!??…..