Refugees of A Refugee Camp

Fuzair Re: Fawad, This response is many years later, because I just found your post----my dad, Air Chief Marshal (Retd.)Anwar Shamim, made the best decision he could given the circumstances created by Group Captain (not col. that is army) Cecil Chaudhury, who is well aware of them. Playing on religious, ethnic, or minority sympathies is not what a hero would do; and neither would he defame another person for personal satisfaction.
My dad has told me the story in confidence, since he is at the age where I would rather know the background of all the hate mongering, but I will keep Cecil Chaudhury's honor by not divulging the real situation. As Abel said to Cain:"for me I intend to let thee draw on thyself the sin of (killing me) as well as thy sins..." Quran 5:29 also see Bible

God's peace!
Saqeba Iqbal
Attorney at Law
Iqbal

Re: # 74 Fawad, This response is many years later, because I just found your post----my dad, Air Chief Marshal (Retd.)Anwar Shamim, made the best decision he could given the circumstances created by Group Captain (not col. that is army) Cecil Chaudhury, who is well aware of them. Playing on religious, ethnic, or minority sympathies is not what a hero would do; and neither would he defame another person for personal satisfaction.
My dad has told me the story in confidence, since he is at the age where I would rather know the background of all the hate mongering, but I will keep Cecil Chaudhury's honor by not divulging the real situation. As Abel said to Cain:"for me I intend to let thee draw on thyself the sin of (killing me) as well as thy sins..." Quran 5:29 also see Bible

God's peace!
Saqeba Iqbal
Attorney at Law

Loved the article!

Watch What You Say

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

NEW YORK TIMES

RAWALPINDI, Pakistan — Before recounting how President Clinton burned alive dozens of Christians (this feint is known in the column trade as baiting the right), let me offer a quick historical quiz: What religion were Muhammad`s parents?

You might think that they, like most people in Arabia in the sixth century, probably worshiped tribal gods and idols. It might seem difficult for anyone to have been a Muslim before Muhammad.

If that`s what you think, bite your tongue — if you visit Pakistan.

Dr. Younus Shaikh, a teacher at a medical college, sits in a brick prison here, after being sentenced to death for blasphemy last year. I couldn`t interview him because the warden caught me trying to slip into the prison as a visitor (I didn`t look like a family member). But the issues are clear.

...more at

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=213153

Bong_dongs #113: I don`t really know. I will see if I can find out.

My own guess is that Pakistan`s participation will not be more than assisting with how to integrate Western systems. Assisting in design, perhaps as members of design teams. And then doing all the manufacturing for the aircraft needed for Pakistan. Basically, what you have mentioned.

I think Pakistan will probably end up manufacturing most of it in Pakistan. After it has been successfully designed etc. in China. I suppose mostly a learning experience on the design side for Pakistanis. Pakistan is pretty good on the manufacturing side, as it is.

Everything related to the PAF is done at Kamra. It is a huge facility. And earns foreign exchange by doing the 100 hour etc. inspections/reassemblies for some Middle Eastern aircraft. As well as selling Pakistani manufactured small prop aircraft.

So I guess everything will be in Kamra. I don`t know of any private aviation engineering company in Pakistan.

ROmair,

Could you provide us your estimate of which Pakistani institutions are participating in the Super 7 project and what their responsibilities are?

For instance on the LCA:

Overall program management: ADA

Flight Control: CLAW (CAIR, ADA, NAL ...)

HUD: CSIO

Mission Computer: HAL

Radar: LRDE

etc etc

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-5/sainis.html

AeishA #107

{RDEsikan ,Gymnasophyst ,replaced by Alephnull,Anit. This multiple head must be catching on !!!!!!!!}

Mohtarma ... or should I say Janab (one never knows on Chowk) - sorry to disappoint you, but I have no interest in polycephalic polymorphous perversion. I sport exactly one head to date. In future ... who knows, if it`s as infectious as you say!

hobbyty #105

A most gratifying response, though on expected lines ... full of your trademark defensive evasions.

{Don`t have a cow}

Why not? Beef is very tasty and quite nutritious!

{Learn to deal with criticism effectively}

Physician heal thyself. That means, in your case, no reams and reams of pompous verbiage failing ever to address a point squarely.

{that means avoid the knee jerk call of ``racism`` and ``discrimination``}

I think you need to learn to read with greater care. Where is there an overt or implied reference to ``racism`` or ``discrimination`` in anything I`ve written?

{and it needed a ``Muslim``}

Again, the quotes around `Muslim`. I think some serious introspective self-examination is called for here. Why does the fact that Dr. Abdul Kalam is a Muslim bother you so much? Why does it threaten your worldview to the point that you need to question his authenticity with those sly quotation marks? Does Kalam`s career perchance refute the notion that minorities cannot receive fair treatment in India, cannot rise to positions and responsibility?

{ - ``at home with Indic traditions``- whatever those may be}

Kalam quotes from the Bhagvad Gita, reads Sri Aurobindo, writes poetry in his native Tamil, plays the veena [``Indic traditions`` is not even a particular uncommon expression]. Perhaps you think all this is incompatible with his being a Muslim. If so, it says something about your worldview.

{So sure, dress him up as a ``symbol`` - just another word for token.}

Kalam was the Project Director for the SLV-3 satellite launch vehicle, then the head of the Integrated Guided Missile Developement Program - serious responsibilities for which merit is the overwhelming criterion, where there is no place for tokenism. He ended up as the head of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, which is expected to produce working weapon systems (its record is spotty, but that is another matter). He would not have been entrusted with ever-increasing responsibility, had he not produced results at each stage. He is of fully adequate stature to be President of India, and far more impressive and energetic than a couple of doddering senile fools and complete ciphers who could have blighted that office. So much for `tokenism`.

Bong_dongs description of the Super-7 program is the information that I have, also.

Pakistan has become extremely good at aseembling hybrids of systems from various different countries, and putting them into a successful aircraft. As well as manufacturing some of the smaller ones.

Now, with the K-8 and Super-7, it is attempting to move towards designing some portions, also.

#108

My reading on the Super 7 program:

1)The Pakistani`s have considerable input in the requirements analysis/conceptual design phase.

2)On detailed design they are participating in areas where they have expertise:western avionics/ weapons integration.

3)In several critical areas (materials, flight control, mission comp develop etc) there is/will be an attempt to develop Pakistani expertise. I do not know which institutes, govt run companies are involved or how much of an ability they have to absorb this.

4)For manufacturing the pattern followed for the K-8 was that initially the aircraft was assembled in Kamra with about 25% Pakistani parts (tail assembly) with a plan to progressively increase the number of domestic parts (the program seems to have stalled though with only 8 examples produced)

5)Similar pattern will be attempted for the FC-1 but due to a large increase in complexity over the K-8 and since it is the first time Pakistan will assemble an entire jet figter, for assembly at Kamra it will require a substantial investment in jigs/machine tools so maybe the first batch may be Chengdu assembled with some Pak parts. Anyway the idea will be to finally assemble domestically with progressive increase in the % of domestic parts.

The first mock-up was displayed at Chengdu this year (or was this a roll-out of the first prototype, who knows?). Since most developmental work is being done at Chengdu, and since I assume all (initial at least) flight testing work will take place in China, I dont understand what a ``roll-out at Kamra`` means. I would expect the first batch out of Kamra to be a full production version.

Bong Dong, Romair

I read recently that Super7 will be rolled out at Kamra in middle of 2003 - what does this mean? Is kamra doing a assembly or does it actually manufacture components?

Stuka #103: Pakistan`s equivalent of Top Gun (not exact equivalent, but similar) used to be called Fighter Leaders School. Now it is called Combat Commander`s School.

It is located in Sargodha. It used to consists of F-16s, F-7Ps, and Mirages. Now it consists of only Mirages and F-16s. Senior Captain level and junior Major level pilots attend this course. I think it is 3 to 5 months long. I am not sure, but I believe each course has six to seven students and six to seven instructors. They students are already experienced in figher tactics.

The major difference between the US Top Gun and CCS in Pakistan is that (I believe) in Pakistan every fighter pilot has to clear it successfully, to continue in fighter flying towards command positions. While in the US Navy, only a small percentage go through this program.

The other major difference is that, unlike normal air combat pratice, which usually is done above 10k feet. CCS is actually done at tree top levels. Top Gun, as indicated in the movie, is done with a hard deck of 10k, not at tree top.

``Pakistan’s ‘Top Gun’ Base

Mike Downing, Air Forces Monthly, April, 1992

``.....The aims of the school are as follows:-

1 . Application of flying tactics.

2. Utilisation of weapon systems.

3. Standardisation and evaluation of various units.

4. Research and development in the field of tactics.....

There are three courses, the combat commanders course lasting for 4/5 months, a 3 month weapons course, and a 4/5 week fighter integration course.`` (http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/topgun.html)

Pakistani top gun:

Combat Commanders School (CCS) at Sargodha.

Alpha null

Don`t have a cow Alpha! - A token is a token is a token - a rose by any other name.

A self made man? are there really such things? - anyway - if his candidacy pleases you - great!

Learn to deal with criticism effectively - that means avoid the knee jerk call of ``racism`` and ``discrimination`` - BJP had a bad image in India due to it`s ineffectiveness in Gujjrat, ti had a bad image in the West for the same reason - and it needed a ``Muslim`` - ``at home with Indic traditions`` - whatever those may be. - So sure, dress him up as a ``symbol`` - just another word for token.

tahmad #100: ``Where I diverge from you is here: You dont seem to question why we have to have thoughtless and unrealistic policies that lead to wars, or close calls (as most recently) in the first place.``

I have actually written quite a bit on this site on why we have such policies. And I have questioned it greatly and even presented solutions to it. I am surprised you did not notice it.

Here are my $.02 on these issues:

There is a great drop in professionalism in the military above the rank of Lt. Col. Infact, I would go to the extent of stating that above Lt. Col., the military is somewhat like the civilian beaurecracy, in terms of corruption, incompetence etc. (not as bad, but not too good either).

The people physically fighting the war are 99% Major or below in ranks. With a few Lt. Cols. thrown it. They are excellent. Brave, honest, confident, patriots, with no political agendas. Just a professional desire to serve their countries. Like all soldiers, they hate wars, because they are the ones who end up dying. But when they are sent into wars by others, they have done their jobs extremely well, against a much larger enemy.

However, when these same people reach a higher rank, there is a change in attitude, a lack of professionalism (perhaps due to poor Staff level training, and an introduction to a system of corruption prevalent throughout Pakistan) etc. It is this incompetence in decision making positions, specifically in the Army, that has gotten Pakistan involved in different wars.

Alongwith this, is the opportunistic and corrupt political leadership of Pakistan, in which people like Bhutto, have gotten Pakistan into two wars, just to gain political benefits. This has led to ambitious generals overthrowing corrupt political govts., and then becoming misguided themselves (Musharraf being the exception; knock on wood).

This has led to a situaition where incompetent, politically ambitious Generals, leading a very organized and patriotic military, are able to completely overpower a group of massively discredited politicians (with no support base amongst the civilian Pakistanis) in all areas, including policy making.

So the core problem are two: incompetent Staff level decision making, and political ambition, in the higher echelons of the Army (the PAF traditionally never joins any Martial Law). And massively discredited and corrupt political leadership.

When these two factors exist at the same time, there are bound to be incorrect decisions. That, can, in no way, be blamed on the soldiers and young officers, who are sent into wars, due to the incompetence of their higher ups (military and civilian). Infact, one must sympathesize with these soldiers, whose lives are considered value-less.

Romair:

``Infact Cecil Chaudhry had the most important post in the PAF (commanding the PAF equivalent of Top Gun) as his last assignment. ``

What is the Pakistani equivilant of Top Gun? In India, it is TACDE (Tactical and Air Combat Development Establishment), based out of Jamnagar.