Islamic Utopia?

re:#143 by Karakoram
Expanding on the Cow theme further, early vedic hindus did not worship cow. Their way of worshipping was thr` elaborate, ritualistic ceremonies in which animal sacrifice (usually a cow but any animal) formed an important part. At the end of ceremony, the sacrificed animal was eaten.
Read the following article from outlook india which goes into the genesis of cow worship and how Brahmins became vegetarians (not all but a significant number, considering all were meat-eaters):
http://www.outlookindia.com/specialfeaturem.asp?fodname=20021022&fname=ambedkar&sid=2.
None other than BR.Ambedkar wrote the article in 1948
Sridhar

#44 by faisaluno
``also why do you think one third of the population of the subcontinent so eagerly adapted a value system so different from that of their ancestors?``.
I am a late comer to this forum but your above statement intrigues me. What kind of value system are you talking about? How similar are the muslims in Indian subcontinent to Arabs or Turks?
I think the muslims in Indian subcontinent have retained their distinct culture that has a lot in common with the hindus. A synthetic culture came into being that adopted a lot of Hindu values. One downside that you see in your own country is that even in your society, caste seems to play a role and people are Rajputs, jats etc. Urdu language came out of this synthetic culture that i am talking about and until 1947, was the most popular language of North India (few in those days learned Hindi).

Your assertion that one third of population embraced Islam and so there is something to it makes no sense if you know in what form Islam came into India. It was violent to say the least. People were given liitle choices in the matter of conversion. Still, people have retained their hindu identity or what they considered as worth preserving. In south, you see a lot of muslims who see no reason to flaunt their muslim identity and are well integrated with the hindus. This is true especially in Kerala.
Considering the back breaking experience that hindus have gone thr` in the 10 centuries of muslim rule and the fact that hinduism does not allow for proseletysing and conversions, it is a testimony to the strength of that religion that it has held on and has close to a billion followers today.
Sridhar

re:#83 by Studebaker
It is not Advani`s fault (though personally i am against his brand of politics). He was rejected by the natives of his land (Sindh) but he found a new home in India, which not only welcomed him and others like him but even tolerated his extreme views. No wonder he is so ultra-national.
Sridhar

re:#90 by faisaluno
I am beginning to like you. You make one blunder after another and yet put up a brave face. Who are you guy? Do i know you? What were you in your previous avatar? Surely you sound familiar but i am unable to place you.
This is a gem: ``thanks also for taking east pakistan off our hands. i certainly do not want my tax rupee subsidizing another basket case economy.``
I hope you are still living on planet earth. Bangladesh, last i heard, was developing faster than Pakistan. It certainly does not subsist on IMF dole. Its micro-credit concept (through Grameen Banks) is being duplicated in many developing countries including India.
Go to: http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/bangladesh/bangladesh_economy.htm
and read about Bangladesh economy and let me know how Pak is better off. Bangladesh has less external debt and recorded 5.3% GDP growth in 2001. Pak`s growth hovers around 3% at best.
Go to: http://www.gdrc.org/icm/grameen-info.html and learn all about Grameen Banks of Bangladesh. This is something that Pakistan can emulate.

It is pathetic that in this era of internet and IT, you are steeped in so much ignorance.

Sridhar

#142 by faisaluno
``what have you guys got from uncle sam besides escaping the formality of not being finger printed upon arrival in the u.s.?``
We have our A$$ intact. Have you?
Pun aside, what kind of stock market recovery are you talking about? Post the facts.
Sridhar

re:#143 by Karakoram
Holy Cow is the legacy of some distant past. Those who think it is holy are welcome to think so. I do not and i am a brahmin.
What happened to Dalits is despicable. Race relations in India are very precarious. What is at work here is that upper castes see Dalits making rapid strides politically and economically and seize upon such flimsy reasons to punish them. But, mark my word. Dalits are on the rise and it is a good thing for India.
CM of UP is a dalit woman. Ex-president K.R. Narayanan was a Dalit.
Even though cow is considered holy by most hindus, one researcher recently published a well researched book where he forcefully argues that most brahmins in the Vedic times ate beef. He quotes scriptures to prove his point. Needless to say, he has gotten himself into trouble with Hindutva elements.
Sridhar

Urstruly;

Waging jihad against polytheists for simply preaching… is jihad for nothing. This is against Quranic teachings … but your mullahs insist otherwise. Your mullahs also justify killing apostates and blasphemers and adulterers. There is no basis for any of this in Islam … and Quran makes this abundantly clear.

The web-site of your mullahs is full of baseless propaganda against Mirza Sahib … which indicates their inability to deal with Ahmadi-Muslim viewpoint on intellectual basis.

Now, it does not matter … whether you consider Ahmadis as Muslims … or not. However, when your mullahs insist on imprisoning Ahmadis for reciting kalima … and incite mobs to violence … it shows jihalaat. Such behavior is not becoming of a decent human being … or a god-fearing Muslim. That`s all I am trying to say here.

Your inability to deal with my viewpoint is evidenced by your evasiveness towards issues I highlighted. This goes to show that mullah’s Islam has been reduced to a hollow, political ideology … devoid of dignity and full of barbarism.

I’ll make this my last post … unless you say something worth responding to. Good luck … and have a good Ramazan.

answer me urstruly

Sattar # 165

Your post # 165 still does not answer my questions which I have been asking for the past 20 posts or so. However, I did answer all your questions regarding Mehdi, Messiah, dancing prophets on the clouds, etc. But as predicted you did not like my answer. Actually, you dont get the point that, I do not care what your religion is or what the beleives you beleive in, whether they are absurd or not, what do I care; however, I do have a problem when you call those beleives Islam. Thank you very much but I dont buy. And I dont think we should start another topic (Mirza Sahib) unless you answer my questions which I have already asked. But let me guess again, that you can`t and you wont.

I did not slander Mirza Sahib; the writing is Mirza Sahib`s own in his ``Tohafa-e-Qaisarya (A Present to the Queen ) Qadian, 1897 p. 27``. The book though written over hundered years ago is still available. And by the way where the hell did I propose as you write ``Contrast it with your own viewpoint … which demands jihad against polytheists for no reason.`` Here is my article on Jihad and in reply section there are 10`s of replies also written by me on the subject. If you can prove what you just said I will leave chowk for good. But allow me to predict that you can`t and you wont.

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001154&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

Urstruly (#162, 160):

Here’s a helpful suggestion. Read your post #162 again … and tell me how does it help? It does not rid your Islam of its contradictions and absurdities … which is your real dilemma.

Your behavior is strikingly similar to that of kuffar, as mentioned in Quran, when they felt threatened by Islam and could no longer deny its truthfulness. They called the dear Prophet (pbuh) names, spread rumors against him and his family, and resorted to violence against Muslims.

You are now feeling threatened by Ahmadi-Islam and are unable to find faults with Ahmadi-Islam. Unable to deal with your frustration, you go on to slander a prophet of Allah, Mirza Sahib (pbuh) … while your mullahs continue to excite mobs to violence against Ahmadi-Muslims.

If you can argue in favor of your Islam … why is all this slandering necessary? Case in point is … an excerpt from the writings of Mirza Shib’s exposition of jihad … that someone posted on another board. One cannot deny the majesty of this writing … so you go on to slander Mirza Sahib. Here’s a link. Read it … and ponder over it. Contrast it with your own viewpoint … which demands jihad against polytheists for no reason.

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001532&channel=civic%20center&start=20&end=29&page=3&chapter=1#14

I can discuss Mirza Sahib with you … but it would be futile if you cannot even accept the basic flaws of your Islam. See my post #146 for details. Once you acknowledge contradictions of your Islam … that I earlier pointed out … we can move on to Mirza Sahib. Deal?

Aamir (#161):

If you see “gaping holes” in my answer … you can ask me … without accusing me. Right? Your response was somewhat irresponsible and immature. Moving on …

I differentiated revealed religions … from man-made religions. Revealed religions are inspired by God Almighty …through prophets. However, if a person initiates a religion on his own … based upon his own ideas … without divine revelations … that would be a man-made religion.

I have explained earlier … belief is a personal matter. It becomes important only when … it is used as a tool for oppression and violence. Since mullahs use Islam to persecute my community of Ahmadi-Muslims … and I have a working knowledge of Islam and Quran … I sometimes highlight absurdities in mullah’s Islam. I occasionally pick on them here on Chowk … because of a few mullahs onboard.

You incorrectly accused me of agreeing with other religions for political reasons. Such a blatant, baseless accusation should be an embarrassment for you. Anyway, following is my response.

As I stated … the original teachings of these religions … were revealed by God Almighty. Broadly speaking, these teachings consisted of worshipping God Almighty … and having love and compassion for His creations. Later, man-made distortions crept into people’s understanding of religion … mortal men were given status of god … religion is used as basis for violence … supernatural attributes are associated with humans … and so on. The original teachings of all religions … worship of God and love for His creations … are the basis of Islam as well. It is the uncorrupted teachings of each revealed religion, Islam included … that I fully agree with … and not with the man-made distortions that were later introduced in them.

Now, if you have more questions … ask like a gentleman. Avoid making assumptions … and accusations. If in doubt … ask politely … and you cannot go wrong.

urstruly
why u so annoying?

Sattar

Since you wont answer my post after repeated requests allow me to answer your questions regarding Mehdi, vehdi, messiah, vessiah, prophet, shrophet, and off course 2000 year old prophets dancing in the clouds. But first let me share this gem with the audience here:

``After the death of my father and brother I led a retired life. But nevertheless I have been employing my pen in the service of British Government. In all the works that I have written I have preached loyality to and sympathy with the British Government I have made effective speeches against Jehad. I wrote books in Arabic and Persian costing me thousands of rupees (Italics added) . All those books were disseminated in Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Baghdad and Afghanistan. I am sure they will bear fruit some day...... wrote many works out of sincere loyality to the British Government otherwise I had little to gain by sending them in Arabia, Syria and Islamic world.”

Author: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani Tohafa-e-Qaisarya (A Present to the Queen ) Qadian, 1897 p. 27

And here is rest of my reply. It will also explain why Mirza Sahib wrote the above gem. Allow me to predict that you wont like my reply again this time either:

http://alhafeez.org/rashid/british-jewish/bjc_2.htm