Shashank Lele December 23, 2002
#40 Posted by SSS on December 27, 2002 9:05:46 pm
As Shashank’s “Wanderings” move into Chowk Archives, I want to thank all of you who read the memoirs, whether or not you participated in the interaction that followed. Hopefully this publication has generated some interest in the illness and will result in better understanding of it. To some of the family members, just reading your interacts has helped, perhaps better than the well meaning condolence visits that tend to be like an emotional roller-coaster.
GhalibZaman (#36-38)
Sir, you do not just look, you see. Bhai maan gaye!
Knowing Shashank, I would not put it past him that he deliberately planted that dig about expatriates. But it could have been a typo that his companion and friend introduced while typing from his scribbled manuscript. Whatever the reason, your pointing it out sure helps clear some of the blues. Thank you.
The Sanskrit word “Sanjeevani” roughly translates to an attribute that gives (or renews) life. The word is typically used as an adjective qualifying a noun.
There are two separate references to “Sanjeevani” in the Hindu epics Mahabharata and Ramayana. The former includes the tale of Shukracharya, who possessed the Sanjeevani “Vidya” or the Sanjeevani knowledge / science. The Ramayana refers to the Sanjeevani “bootie” that had to be fetched from a far away mountain in the Himalayas to revive Lord Rama’s brother Laxman, who was struck down by Rawana’s son Indrajit. So you were right about Sanjeevani being a life giving herb. :)
I believe Pataal to be a word of Sanskrit origin. There are supposed to be seven levels of Pataal, the seventh being the worst and the lowest. The word equivalent to the Greek “Hedes” you refer to (of Orpheus and Euridice fame?) would be “Narak” i.e. Hell. In the context of Pataal being the abode of Rakshasas or Demons, we should merely take it to mean the nether lands (no disrespect to my Dutch friends).
Sadna (#39)
At the risk of putting my foot in the mouth again, let me say that I think Shashank’s memoirs can also be looked at in terms of the second identity crisis that humans are expected to face in the later phase of their life. Unlike the first crisis that occurs between adolescence and adulthood, the second is supposed to occur at a much later stage, when one has arrived at the end of a productive life, and one’s physical limitations have started to assert themselves.
With no worthwhile physical ability at his command, and perhaps without even the desire to make a difference, the adult is left to brood over the past and ruminate over the “wrong” choices and decisions he made at critical junctures. “What if” and “If only” kind of thoughts haunt him during this stage. Not even the most “successful” of adults are exempt from this feeling of having wasted opportunities and having done wrong. Guilt, frustration and sadness become your companions. Religion, spirituality, priests, and yes, even the “shrinks” become useful. A small percent of people manage to make peace with themselves a second time, on their own.
Shashank’s illness had left him a physical wreck, although his brain could work feverishly, aided by his Bipolar Disorder. His most redeeming characteristic to me, was his strong desire to understand his actions, choices, and decisions, and to exercise his writing talent to get to the root of his problems. In that quest, the ordinary concerns like shame became irrelevant. I do like to think that he resolved his second identity crisis ably, on his own, and despite all his limitations and handicaps.
Sincerely,
SSS
#39 Posted by sadna on December 24, 2002 7:05:43 am
SSS #35
``If parents are to be held responsible for the resolution of all the guilt conflicts of the child, when does the child ever become an “adult”?``
``The first identity crisis is supposed to happen when brushes with reality shatter the comfortable cocoon of values the individual had built for himself, and a successful resolution of that crisis is supposed to make for a harmonious adult``
SSS, you put this very well indeed. I agree with you this is the normal process. Spoilt brats get too much cocooning and take longer to become harmonious adults. And there are situations in which adults are more unrelenting towards a child than is good for the health of a child`s self-esteem and that takes extra living down. Then there are external situations(such as divorced parents, extreme poverty or civil unrest) where coming to terms with reality is more challenging. And there is also the internal reason, that of a psychiatric disorder. Whatever the reason, its sad if an adult feels guilt for his actions in childhood.
Perhaps you know of them already, but if you haven`t, you might like KM Munshi`s Krishnavatara in 7 volumes(Bhavan`s University)
``If parents are to be held responsible for the resolution of all the guilt conflicts of the child, when does the child ever become an “adult”?``
``The first identity crisis is supposed to happen when brushes with reality shatter the comfortable cocoon of values the individual had built for himself, and a successful resolution of that crisis is supposed to make for a harmonious adult``
SSS, you put this very well indeed. I agree with you this is the normal process. Spoilt brats get too much cocooning and take longer to become harmonious adults. And there are situations in which adults are more unrelenting towards a child than is good for the health of a child`s self-esteem and that takes extra living down. Then there are external situations(such as divorced parents, extreme poverty or civil unrest) where coming to terms with reality is more challenging. And there is also the internal reason, that of a psychiatric disorder. Whatever the reason, its sad if an adult feels guilt for his actions in childhood.
Perhaps you know of them already, but if you haven`t, you might like KM Munshi`s Krishnavatara in 7 volumes(Bhavan`s University)
#38 Posted by GhalibZaman on December 23, 2002 10:16:54 pm
#35:SSS
More:
I always thought that sanjeevnee bootie is found on Kailaash. And in my opinion Pataal is not hades but the lowest point ON Prithvi.
Is pataal farsee, pehlvee or sanskrit? Anyone.
Ramayana says: `` amrbootyaan barfeelay pahaaron pur miltee hain aur jeevan kitnaa kathhin hai`` or words not exactly thus.
More:
I always thought that sanjeevnee bootie is found on Kailaash. And in my opinion Pataal is not hades but the lowest point ON Prithvi.
Is pataal farsee, pehlvee or sanskrit? Anyone.
Ramayana says: `` amrbootyaan barfeelay pahaaron pur miltee hain aur jeevan kitnaa kathhin hai`` or words not exactly thus.
#37 Posted by GhalibZaman on December 23, 2002 10:16:53 pm
#32
Dair sey aankh pey utraa naheeN ashkoN kaa azaab
upnay zimmay hai tiraa Qarz naa jaanay kubb sey.
PS: You tough task-master. Thanks.
Dair sey aankh pey utraa naheeN ashkoN kaa azaab
upnay zimmay hai tiraa Qarz naa jaanay kubb sey.
PS: You tough task-master. Thanks.
#36 Posted by GhalibZaman on December 23, 2002 9:35:51 pm
#35:SSS
Seldom a nitpicker, I usualy gloss over typos or grammar ,of which I do not lay claim to any fame anyway, but just could not let this one pass for the sheer brilliance of it.
Vive la mistake!
A faux pas, mistake, or typo ( or none of the above):
Jo bhee ho tum, khudaa kee Qasam lajavaab ho.
From chapter:12
......In America I had met only /ex-patriot Indians and watched Oprah Winfrey on television.
PS: and thanks for your kind ``critique``.
Seldom a nitpicker, I usualy gloss over typos or grammar ,of which I do not lay claim to any fame anyway, but just could not let this one pass for the sheer brilliance of it.
Vive la mistake!
A faux pas, mistake, or typo ( or none of the above):
Jo bhee ho tum, khudaa kee Qasam lajavaab ho.
From chapter:12
......In America I had met only /ex-patriot Indians and watched Oprah Winfrey on television.
PS: and thanks for your kind ``critique``.
#35 Posted by SSS on December 23, 2002 6:59:50 pm
GhalibZaman (#25, #31) and Urstruly (#32)
That is some compliment, GZ Sahib. Passionate, and also, like Urstruly says, exquisite prose. The late author would have liked it. I particularly liked the phrase “steeped in the ecology of Indian-ness and Hindu-ness”. The interesting thing is that Shashank’s earlier writing rarely expressed an awareness of that ecology. In his early years, he used to be critical of certain aspects of it that he considered wrong or irrelevant in the modern context. Did it mean that he saw everything wrong about the ancient society? No, I think he merely criticized what he could not accept, and like most young men, overlooked the positive aspects that he would appreciate much later. I guess one has to pay for wisdom by way of age and experience.
I think your statement “Until & Unless Paki-Indis get themselves exorcised of the demons colonising their minds nothing worthwhile can happen” merits reflection. One must be comfortable with one’s own identity and heritage before one can make peace with the diversity that others bring to the neighborhood.
AmericanExpress (#28)
Thank you for that interesting input. It is not surprising, considering that Bengalis have traditionally been at the forefront of experimentation and reform in the Indian society. Their lead in creative and performing arts has inspired the work of many famous Maharashtrians.
Westwind (#30)
Appreciate your saying so. Autobiographical writing, as a form, is tricky. If you are too open about your mistakes, some readers don’t like it. If you are tactful, others accuse you of dishonesty. In the end, such writing is best undertaken to understand oneself, and the why and wherefore of one’s actions. “The Story of My Experiments with Truth” had a profound impact on me for the author’s sheer sincerity in trying to validate of his assumptions behind every action of his. Many thought the author to be Quixotic, others called him a pervert. They did not see that his single minded pursuit of “truth” elevated him from an ordinary Indian to a Mahatma, in the process giving hope to even the most wretched.
Sadna (#33, #19)
I believe that autobiographical writing, particularly when not written with a view to publish, can have a therapeutic value. Writing one’s daily diary was a good habit encouraged in the old days. It gave one the opportunity to confront oneself , a kind of Gestalt, if you like. I lost interest, like many of my generation, because we were overburdened by the loads of “homework” to improve our handwriting. It simply did not leave us interested in writing something nobody else was likely to read – and Gestalt was not known to most of us then. ;)
My understanding of the Freudian stages of a child’s emotional growth is significantly different from what you seem to suggest in #19. If parents are to be held responsible for the resolution of all the guilt conflicts of the child, when does the child ever become an “adult”? The supposed progression from infant to an adult in harmony with himself is explained in terms of the id, ego, superego ... the last mentioned being where the child begins to exercise an independent judgement against the framework of values given by the “parents”. The first identity crisis is supposed to happen when brushes with reality shatter the comfortable cocoon of values the individual had built for himself, and a successful resolution of that crisis is supposed to make for a harmonious adult. But let me not go and put a foot in my mouth. I am sure there are others far better qualified to respond to your point. FJ? Shankar??
Thank you for quoting the passage from Yayati - Devayani. I understand it far better today than when I last read it. BTW, I also have Rajgopalachari’s Mahabharata which we bought for our son, and have shared it with a senior Pakistani friend of mine. He has an enormous interest in the two Indian classics, and asks me probing questions that require quite an effort to meaningfully respond to. Incidentally, he was an Officer serving in East Pakistan in 1971, and spent some time in India as a POW. What is amazing is that he bears no grudge towards India or Indians. Both he and his wife have been very kind to us always, and sincere and balanced in their appreciation or critique of the many contentious issues between the two neighbors.
Einsteinwallah (#34) Thank you EW for pointing these errors out. I had noticed them, but did not correct them myself for reasons you guessed correctly. I will send an email to Chowk to correct the mistakes.
Sincerely,
SSS
#34 Posted by einsteinwallah on December 22, 2002 9:33:02 am
For now I limit myself to two spelling errors. Somewhere ``west`` is used where ``vest`` should have been used. Somewhere ``wine`` is used where ``vine`` should have been used.
Also chapter 10 is included twice.
Someone may object that one must not change original text. But Shashank Lele would have this errors pointed out to him by proof readers of his publishers. So it is okay to change.
-ew
Also chapter 10 is included twice.
Someone may object that one must not change original text. But Shashank Lele would have this errors pointed out to him by proof readers of his publishers. So it is okay to change.
-ew
#33 Posted by sadna on December 22, 2002 7:39:56 am
SSS
Its a privilege to share the writer`s experiences, memories and insights. I hope he found some measure of peace in the end.
Someone I know, who takes treatment for a psychological disorder, recently said that, as a Hindu one feels burdened with one`s transgressions, moving into Christianity one gets offered immediate forgiveness, which is a great relief. This person, incidently, is being relieved of a fair amount of money as well, but IMO that would be beside the point if she felt better. Its not clear she does, unfortunately because thats the nature of the beast.
And she and your cousin are not alone. IMO, there are people upon ordinary people seized with the urgency of seeking salvation and absolution. Whether they do it with honesty and self-recollection shown by your cousin in these chapters is another question. There was this report describing valuable gifts left anonymously in the Tirupati temple hundi including diamond jewellery worth lakhs of rupees. And what else motivates multitudes of people to make the trip to the Kumbh Melas, for example.
There were parts in 3 and 4 which I haven`t fully understood. But I enjoyed the writers narration of the stories from the Puranas. Recently I came across this from C Rajagopalachari`s Mahabharata in the Shukracharya- Devayani story:
``Bhagavan Vyasa advises humanity in general in the following words of counsel addressed by Shukracharya to his daughter[Devayani, upset after Yayati refused to marry her and the king`s daughter called her the daughter of a mendicant living on wages of flattery]:
`He conquers the world, who patiently puts up with the abuse of his neighbours. He who controls his anger, as a horseman breaks an unruly horse, is indeed a charioteer and not he who merely holds the rein but lets the horse go whither it would. He who sheds anger just as a snake its slough, is a real hero. He who is not moved despite the greatest torments inflicted by others, will realise his aim. He who never gets angry is superior to the ritualist who faithfully performs for a hundred years the sacrifices ordained by scripture. Servants, friends, brothers, wife, children, virtue and truth abandon the man who gives way to anger...`..``.
PS: Incidentally, you have a good memory :) .
Its a privilege to share the writer`s experiences, memories and insights. I hope he found some measure of peace in the end.
Someone I know, who takes treatment for a psychological disorder, recently said that, as a Hindu one feels burdened with one`s transgressions, moving into Christianity one gets offered immediate forgiveness, which is a great relief. This person, incidently, is being relieved of a fair amount of money as well, but IMO that would be beside the point if she felt better. Its not clear she does, unfortunately because thats the nature of the beast.
And she and your cousin are not alone. IMO, there are people upon ordinary people seized with the urgency of seeking salvation and absolution. Whether they do it with honesty and self-recollection shown by your cousin in these chapters is another question. There was this report describing valuable gifts left anonymously in the Tirupati temple hundi including diamond jewellery worth lakhs of rupees. And what else motivates multitudes of people to make the trip to the Kumbh Melas, for example.
There were parts in 3 and 4 which I haven`t fully understood. But I enjoyed the writers narration of the stories from the Puranas. Recently I came across this from C Rajagopalachari`s Mahabharata in the Shukracharya- Devayani story:
``Bhagavan Vyasa advises humanity in general in the following words of counsel addressed by Shukracharya to his daughter[Devayani, upset after Yayati refused to marry her and the king`s daughter called her the daughter of a mendicant living on wages of flattery]:
`He conquers the world, who patiently puts up with the abuse of his neighbours. He who controls his anger, as a horseman breaks an unruly horse, is indeed a charioteer and not he who merely holds the rein but lets the horse go whither it would. He who sheds anger just as a snake its slough, is a real hero. He who is not moved despite the greatest torments inflicted by others, will realise his aim. He who never gets angry is superior to the ritualist who faithfully performs for a hundred years the sacrifices ordained by scripture. Servants, friends, brothers, wife, children, virtue and truth abandon the man who gives way to anger...`..``.
PS: Incidentally, you have a good memory :) .
#32 Posted by Urstruly on December 20, 2002 10:30:56 am
Shorn of westernism and the Paki-Indi english `literature` types who go out of the way to convince us that they `know` english language and culture. I hope the lollypop-burger axis of devil is listening & reading this in Desilands.
This narrative is steeped in the ecology of Indian-ness, Hindu-ness. Not the antiseptic, astringent soul-less commie-leftee-atheist kind of meaningless-meaningfullness. A fie upon those warped-minds! Acurse upon the alternate orificedom. May Allah perish them sooner! Amen
Until & Unless Paki-Indis get themselves exorcised of the demons colonising their minds nothing worhwhile can happen.
This is a sample of an exquisite piece of prose I have read in ages. Welcome Back....
#31 Posted by GhalibZaman on December 20, 2002 9:26:54 am
SSS:
Good stuff indeed.
Shorn of westernism and the Paki-Indi english `literature` types who go out of the way to convince us that they `know` english language and culture. I hope the lollypop-burger axis of devil is listening & reading this in Desilands.
This narrative is steeped in the ecology of Indian-ness, Hindu-ness. Not the antiseptic, astringent soul-less commie-leftee-atheist kind of meaningless-meaningfullness. A fie upon those warped-minds! Acurse upon the alternate orificedom. May Allah perish them sooner! Amen
Until & Unless Paki-Indis get themselves exorcised of the demons colonising their minds nothing worhwhile can happen.
Good stuff indeed.
Shorn of westernism and the Paki-Indi english `literature` types who go out of the way to convince us that they `know` english language and culture. I hope the lollypop-burger axis of devil is listening & reading this in Desilands.
This narrative is steeped in the ecology of Indian-ness, Hindu-ness. Not the antiseptic, astringent soul-less commie-leftee-atheist kind of meaningless-meaningfullness. A fie upon those warped-minds! Acurse upon the alternate orificedom. May Allah perish them sooner! Amen
Until & Unless Paki-Indis get themselves exorcised of the demons colonising their minds nothing worhwhile can happen.
#30 Posted by westwind on December 19, 2002 8:54:46 am
A beautisully crafted story with a compact plot............................
#29 Posted by Urstruly on December 19, 2002 7:34:50 am
AN APPEAL FOR A BOYCOTT.
Dear People,
In the name of humanity and in the name of good conscience I would like to appeal to you to boycott Nestle products from now on. The multinational coffee corporation, Nestle, is demanding a $6m (£3.7m) payment from the government of the world`s poorest state, Ethiopia, as the country struggles to combat its worst famine for nearly 20 years.
The money is compensation for an Ethiopian business, which the previous military government nationalised in 1975. It could feed a million people for a month, according to Oxfam.
Dear People,
Let us not forget that humanity is starving in Africa for no other reason but ruthless loot and plunder of Europeans. People there suffer civil wars, death, hunger, torture, only because Europeans have and still are playing games and looting gold, diamonds and other natural resources without impunity. Let us also not forget the centuries of slavery, prejudice, and apartheid that Europeans have subjected Africans to. And now they have balls to ask for compensation? Only one who should be paying compensation here is the Europeans to the Africans for they are the one who committed crimes against humanity and inflicted inhuman indignity to the Africans.
Dear people!
Just imagine your children and loved ones in place of starving Africans. If you care for humanity; if you care for dignity of a human being you must boycott these capitalist corporate thugs.
Dear people.
Please keep in mind that Nestle is not the only one but 40 other multinational vultures are also hovering above the dying Africans.
Say No to Nestle. Say no to Capitalist Corporate Vultures
http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,862655,00.html
#27 Posted by Urstruly on December 18, 2002 10:51:24 am
Wakil
I do not know Jabbar personally; however, to the best of my knowledge I have read most of the stuff that he has written. I also think that he is one of the most under appreciated writers in Pakistan. His stories represent the very soul of Paksitan - no pretentions - no holds barred - no moral trap - no ideology - nothing but pure emotion. I have read both his ``Badan ka Doz`kh`` and ``Mera Naam MaNgoo Hai``; so you can see that I grew up with him in a sense. Now it has been years that I have read anything from him but I do remember his ``Kutran`` and probably ``Chamgadar`` ( I think it is a short story in Badan ka dozakh, might be mistaken here about the name) ; it was a story about a man who falls in love with a woman at the Data Darbar. Excellent.
Lucky you, that you have the previlige to know him personally.
#26 Posted by S.P.Wakil on December 18, 2002 4:31:49 am
urstruly #18 and quite non-relevant to it: [With apology from rest of the interactors on this board]
How did you become acquainted with Jabbar Touqeer? I knew him in the 1950s and ... . We may have a friend in common who is no more [1977?].
Or did you become acquainted with him via ``Badan ka Doz`kh`` or, perhaps, ``Mera Naam MaNgoo Hai``. [S.P@USask.ca]
How did you become acquainted with Jabbar Touqeer? I knew him in the 1950s and ... . We may have a friend in common who is no more [1977?].
Or did you become acquainted with him via ``Badan ka Doz`kh`` or, perhaps, ``Mera Naam MaNgoo Hai``. [S.P@USask.ca]
#25 Posted by GhalibZaman on December 17, 2002 10:02:48 pm
#24 SSS
Yes Ved Mehta. It was a while ago. Can`t recall now. Maybe, the trilogy? Babujee, Matajee etc?
Yes Ved Mehta. It was a while ago. Can`t recall now. Maybe, the trilogy? Babujee, Matajee etc?
#24 Posted by SSS on December 17, 2002 4:32:17 pm
In my last response, while addresing sac`s posting (#12), I have wrongly used the ord ``treatable``. I meant ``curable``.
GhalibZaman Sahib, you have hit the nail on the head when you see these memoirs as a couch-confession. Shashank did undergo several such sessions, and may have instinctively used the technique in his writing, trying to find correlations. I believe he refers to some such thing at the end of Chapter 2. And I am glad you do not see any attempt at being politically correct in Shashank`s writing. He needed to be brutally honest to himself even if it looked like washng dirty linen in public. Like they say, you do not hide anything from your doctor. And I do think he wanted to know the truth about himself.
BTW, did you mean Dev Mehta, or Ved Mehta? Which book?
-- SSS
GhalibZaman Sahib, you have hit the nail on the head when you see these memoirs as a couch-confession. Shashank did undergo several such sessions, and may have instinctively used the technique in his writing, trying to find correlations. I believe he refers to some such thing at the end of Chapter 2. And I am glad you do not see any attempt at being politically correct in Shashank`s writing. He needed to be brutally honest to himself even if it looked like washng dirty linen in public. Like they say, you do not hide anything from your doctor. And I do think he wanted to know the truth about himself.
BTW, did you mean Dev Mehta, or Ved Mehta? Which book?
-- SSS
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