Master of Islam

#48 by jay on January 10, 2003 6:43am PT

YES you are right ultimately despite anything else it falls on the people to be responsible for their actions.

However it helps us understand them better..

Also we may need to examine our own biases... the situation in pakistan is bad agreed... but is it so bad to deserve unequvocal condemmation...
how does it compare to ourselves..

even if we belive our stand is right.. we should not discount the bias that comes by some amount of indoctrination we ourselves have had since independence..

even if we do not belive it is there it would be prudent not to discount it altogether and examine where our own positions come from..

We can only attempt to guide others behaviour but we are in control of our own more fully so it is imperative to examine our own stand to question if there has been any responsiblity on our part too..

Perhaps it would be better if we can get a more accurate picture of pakistani socitey.. not from what our press says or western press says or what the pakistani press says..

I suspect that the reality of pakistan may not be exactly as being potrayed..
I have been interacting with some pakistanis here... It is diffiuclt to gauge the actual situation on the ground from the experiences of people here who must most likely be elites and may be more than a decade since they left pakistan..

In such absence of actual experience I would give the pakistanis the benfiit of doubt just I would give the benfit of doubt to srilankan tamils and say biharis..

Incedently at least 2-3 engineering colleges in bangalore do not admit biharis and people from western UP.. Looks very similar to the situation the pakistanis are in elsewhere...

I prefer not to indulge in taking a stand on values of people.. but instead if those values affect me then do what in my capablity to prod.. create condtions.. remove impedments.. challenge their thinking.. to affect change to my benifit..

Just pilloring people has not got anybody anywhere. as pakistanis can attest as well as Indians who can attest there has been no change in the behaviour of pakistan after decades of showing up thier bad side or condemming them..

If we belive that pakistani behaviour is causing us some damage and if it is great enough then we should take the effort to get the result is change in behaviour through what ever means possible...

Unfortunately now a days as earlier it means getting tough... I has rarely worked.. anywhere in the world with any permanant result.

Pragmatisim, clear thinking and acceptance of moral values in our stand are what is required.

re:#49 by khansahib
I am sure it is cocaine.
Sridhar

this person khansahib is a fake

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#43 by rsridhar,
Do not talk to me this way. I am Maulana Puttikhan. Show some respect when you say something to me. mr. rsridhar, you were a scroundral of a mongrel before and you are a still that now, and you will be that always. You belong in the gutter. You do not know what you are saying here. Go to some bloody Indian websight and talk your garbage there. I know people like you. You are shaitan #1!!
Do not polute this pakistani internet with your Indian ideas. Indians are mongrol dogs and only fit to be servants, NOTHING ELSE!!
Anyway, muslims will rule the world and finish you hindu indians. If we cannot be the rulers then nobody can.
Our brothers in Saudi will be leading the way.
You are warned Indian!!!!

Ali,

The main draw back of all of your arguments is the absence of a central theme, a pradigm that explains the events in pakistan of the last 50 years. With out such a consistant theory, any talk of indo pak peace or solving the kasmir issue is fruitless.

Having started with similar social background and legal system, pakistan has legalised honour killings, introduced blasphemy laws, erased Abdus salam from their history, became a home base for jihadists from all over the world, created an election system where only graduates can take part which turn out to be only madrassa graduates.

If you can come out with a causal explanation that does not include `` it is due to zia, it is the work of US and afghan war, it is due to poverty and illiteracy``, and instead focus on the values of pakistanis, that assigns responsibility to the pakistanis, I am happy to listen.

PS sadna #45
``Some of these insurgent groups are given shelter in Bangladesh and some ULFA leaders were reportedly living in Karachi, which may be why you are confused as to their being Muslim but they seem to be almost all Hindu, hence unlikely to have taken up the gun for the cause of Muslims and Islam alas. Perhaps you would like to rethink? ``

They seem to be almost all Hindu AND Christian, hence unlikely to have taken up the gun for the cause of Muslims and Islam alas.

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ali87 #37
``Its solution lies in Honouring old agreements``

Lets begin with honoring the Simla agreement. If not, then if we are to discard agreements at will then India should make its own choice of which agreements to discard.

``Too many Indians belive that granting autonomy to Kashmir or relative freedom will bring about utter chaos in the political unity of India. This a false premise. Why should be kashmiris be held hostage to what rest of India would do. If India is so inherrently unstable then it only proves the point of those who wage war against it. ``

I doubt there is any Indian public opinion AGAINST greater autonomy. The only thing is, in real terms, just like Art 370 enabled Abdullahs `state sponsored dynastic rule`, autonomy will help the rulers in tightening their grip further on the public. J&K needs to be integrated into the Indian economy and to get the benefit of whatever nationwide democratic institutions in the rest of India can do for it, autonomy will cause its people to be left even more to the mercy of their rulers.

As for the rest of your argument, lets see you are saying if India is inherently unstable then Pakistan is justified in waging war against India. Thats a VERY good reason for India to refuse any `negotiation` with an even more unstable Pakistan.


``We need to be (and can be ) more accomodative of differences and demands for Autonomy(witness the negotiation with Naga Leaders that is going on). ``

Have you heard of the Assam accord, the Darjeeling Hill council and the Mizoram accord? Have you heard the latest announcements of talks to Bodos and Nagas? If anything, IMO the problem is that the government is too keen to make peace with armed groups of a few thousand holding a large population to ransom without enough emphasis on broadbased development. It shouldnot make the same mistake in J&K.

``But as a first step we need to recognise the reality of the 50 years of suppression in these areas and of the margnalisation of muslim culture and language (Urdu though not a muslim language is the language spoken by most Muslims) and attacks on the religion and the people. ``

I agree about attacks on Muslims, the Sangh parivar attitude toward Muslims and the status of Urdu.

But neither in Kashmir nor in the NE is `Muslim culture being suppressed`. Muslims are certainly the victims of violence, but its Kashmiri Hindus whose culture is being wiped out in Kashmir while they are living in refugee camps all over India. Muslims have had to leave to look for jobs and education elsewhere in India because the insurgency has killed the J&K economy.

The NE is primarily Christian, with Hindus being massacred in places like Tripura for either daring to vote or for refusing to convert and intertribal rivalries in other places. While in some regions, primarily Hindu Bengali settlers are attacked, in others its Muslim settlers who are victims of insurgent violence. The general public of all religions is the main victim of insurgencies, ranging from extortion rackets in Assam to decrees about clothes in Manipur.

Some of these insurgent groups are given shelter in Bangladesh and some ULFA leaders were reportedly living in Karachi, which may be why you are confused as to their being Muslim but they seem to be almost all Hindu, hence unlikely to have taken up the gun for the cause of Muslims and Islam alas. Perhaps you would like to rethink?

re:#37 by ali87
Go to the link below to educate yourself about the insurgencies in the North-east:

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/09/11/14792.html

Pakistan`s role in Naga insurgency:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/jun/08hazari.htm



Mizo insurgency is the thing of past after Laldenga signed an accord with the GOI. Naga insurgency is the longest surviving one and is about to be settled soon as the leader of Nagas is about to meet ABV in Delhi:
http://www.nenanews.com/NEE%20Dec.22%20-%20Jan.6,%20%2002/oh1.htm
Of note in the above article is the fact that, for the first time in Naga history, the Naga leader is having a meeting with Indian leaders in India and is coming with an Indian passport.
Sridhar

re:#38 by khansahib
Just out of curiosity, what drug are you on? The symptoms are unmistakably of charas/ganja since you are on an ego-trip but then you could have added cocaine too to the concoction, since you also hallucinate at places.
I eagerly await your reply.
Sridhar

Rolph and Keshto:
you are bloody neanderothols!!
Do not talk to me in this way!!
You have no respect to elders or Islamic way.
You know nothing.
I lived with my poor brothers and have seen the mascare by hindus. we have also a right to kill hindus and we will kill more of them. just to sho them that they can be killed. so shut up mr. neoanderthols!!

Ali87: you are wrong bhai!!
Pakistan will take care by itself. Allah will see to it. Also saudi people will help. Tyhey have much money and we will buy many vepons and bombs to kill hindus.
Again you are wrong. We did not kill hindus in bangladesh. the bloody hindus killed them to blame pakistan. there is no proof that pakistanis killed hindus. we are peaceful but we will make insaf when the hindus kill us muslims. hindus hate muslims.
so please try to learn from me. and support your madrasas. we want your donations, as much as you can.
when you are in need we will help you and we will pray for you also.
May you become rich and make lots of money.
so try to correct your behavior from now on. and do not believe any hindu. they hare muslims always.

#38 by khansahib on January 9, 2003 3:37pm PT

thanks for the help but I already have a guide. It is called the Quran and Hadith.
Your Generals have not been upto it is a fact demonstrated by 50 years of history.
If you want to defeat the hindus who perputated Gujrat that is fine but to label all of them as such is stupidity.
While one may argue how many among the hindus are against Muslism and how many are tolerant. The fact is that there exists a size able body of Hindus who dont care for the Sangh Ideology.
So if you are looking for partners in protecting muslims you should Identify the hindus such as these and partner with them to defeat the Sanghis.
Perhaps you have understanding that Allahs will includes helping people who cant help themselves.
What were you doing when the army killed millions in Bangladesh? If they wanted to have their own country did it warrant their killing in large numbers? Was it Islamic?
What protection can you give to the muslims of India when you could not give it to the muslims of Pakistan itself. What stops you from making pakistan a place where there are fair laws, Poor are not oppressed, People educated, devoid of hunger, people dont cheat, murder, roit and kill others in mosques, where people excel in technology and work for betterment of socitey.

Did the hindus stop you from acheving that?

Was this the same guidance that you gave to the muslims in Afghanistan?

Remember that even after you have liberated the mulsims of the whole world the task of fixing your own corner of the world remains the same and the solutions to those problems remains the same.
While it is not likely in your present state that you will be able to do anything to India. If however you devote your energies to development of pakistan and its socitey in a couple of decades you would have improved the lot of atleast 140 million muslims.

Perhaps then you could turn your attention elsewhere. It may even be welcomed by the recipients of your help then. Right now you have very little to offer. Pakistan could not even make any influence on the lot of the Gujrat muslims because it is financial weak, and morally bankrupt.

If pakistan were to look at long term strategy for itself in for its development. It will find perhaps a willing India listening to it and may be even heeding its advice.
That dear Khansahib is the way you should show your love for Indian Muslims. First make yourself being capable of being respected, admired and heard in the world im sure then even India will be compelled to listen to what you have to say.

The guidance that you talk about has not worked in the last 50 years either for Pakistan, Bangladesh or Indian mulsims. Perhaps you will have the courage to examine other methods. The ones that Quran says that you should try frist. Perhaps you could learn from the Strategy of the Prophet in not getting into confortation till the muslim nation was strong and well established.

You should go back to the Quran and Hadith and look at them comprehensively not bit and peices of them.

thanks but no thanks

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Two brother Neanderthals #37 #38.