A Chance Remark

Thanks for all the comments.

May I suggest to those who are interested in an alternate viewpoint to Mr MSS Pandian that they read an article by Mr Ravikumar? here is the URL:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2003032002421300.htm

#41 by ali87 on March 20, 2003 7:00am PT

Ali..you are right in your own way.

I have rediscovered Hinduism lately. Actually, discovered it only now. When I was a child, in India, I used to quietly watch the group of ladies who would come every week for some `kirtan`(the hindu assembly of religious group). They would chant bhajans and religous songs. While some of the ladies would be seriously engrossed and seemed to understand stuff, others looked like they were chanting meaninglessly. Then they would do the normal simple rituals of `dhoop-agarbati`, `prasad (divine food), tilak to God and all the people gathered..etc etc. I was not very fascinated as I always looked for something deeper.

I was the one who raised this question to my parents and said ``Can I read books about other relgions? They seem to make more sense to me`` Well, my parents didn`t stop me becsue they are also very moderate in approach.

I attended more of hindu satsangs, this time the serious ones that discuss about life`s (an deaths philosophies in serious mood.
I discoverd that there is no differnce whatsoever. If other religions have guidelines to follow good path so has Hinduism. And rather plenty of it. There are many things overlapping in what Krishna says and what Christ said years and years after Krshna born. How advanced our Vedas an d Purannas were in many ways and we are the ones who shun yoga and Ayurveda while the west is crazy about them.

There is something for everyone in Hinduism, we can even pick and choose. There is no strict compulsion for us but a liberty to discover ourselves. Some other religions claim to be the best..... I feel it reduces their appeal. So, I found Hinduism to be much simpler than it seems to be on teh surfce with its plethora of Gods and rituals. They don`t worry me anymore. Hinduism, I discoverd is also harmless and non-dictating..not at all confronting.

And till today my research is on. My conclusion is there is much moore to Hinduism than the superficialities. I have shunned all unneccessary rituals and I gain all my strength from Hindu books with all their spirtuality and guidelines.

#40 by m_souza on March 19, 2003 5:29pm PT

Touchy!! No elation here neither any put down.

Just the facts(or what I think the facts are)

>>And vedas? Are they all about rituals?

Well not all about. But mostly.. Not just my opinion but of many hindus too. My guess is todays time you couldnt follow even 20% of what the vedas prescirbe. Which is why hindus have moved away from it many hundred years back. Keeping only the more Electic aspect of them with them.

>>Geeta, Vedas, Puranas, Upnishads

When I read that list I read it this way.. Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, Geeta.

Anyway the aritcle is about how much of philoshophy and how much of ritual. Which is the crux of your post too. I posted some rituals (mostly cultural) which are followed in North India. Our Non Resident Madrasi seems to have taken on the superiority complex of the the ``Reazonable Nouorth Indians`` It just stuck me with a bit of amusement (not the rituals). I was imagaining the war going on within Hari`s conciousness. The North Indian Upbringing Vs the South Indian roots(Some thing ankin to what goes on in ABCD`S here in US) I was hoping to give him some material defence to offsett his obvious dismay at the south indian customs.

If I had pointed out that the same facts that hari has pointed out we would have had heated arguments running into at least 30-40 posts!

>>They want the respectability seemingly conferred by associating with the High Religion of Brahminical Hinduism while wanting the immunities traditionally granted by bloody sacrifices to Mariamman or Karuppannasamy.

Seems to me that hari is describing two religons, Brahamanical Hinduism and the other ie just plain deity worshiping depending on local tradition and myth.

Had I made the same distinction hari and many others would have jumped and tired their utmost to prove otherwise.

In fact this what many historians described how Hinduism encapsulated the native religons as it moved south from North (Contorversy level Orange here!!) In fact it is still continuing according to John Keays Book History of India, He gives a couple of recent examples in his book.

Some people have the claim that any Idol worshiping is akin to hinduism. I would always ask what is hinduism? To me the answer seems to be is to embrace some part of the Vedas and some of the older textsin some form or the other. Just Idol worship or belonging to a contigous area where Hinduism was practiced is not sufficuent I feel. If it were so then the ancient Greeks could also be called hindus and so could me countless Idol worshipping socities.

Historians decribe how local dieties (thus communities themselves) are/were taken into the fold of Hinduism through the mechanisim of incarnation of established dieties. How Idol worshipping communites reinvent themsleves through this method to belong to a more successful/powerful community and their place in the matrix is defined by the rules of manu.

But anyway take all this in the context of acedemic discussion not personaly. After all I cannot prove or disprove the rightness of what you belive or disbelive through this medium, neither is it necessary nor right for me to do so.


Hari is in a contemplative mood in this article. Also his use of some good literary diveces make his article a very good one(No not because he is listing out the bad rituals and customs of hinduism). He has managed to keep the readers mind on where he want to be ie the topic that he wants. I doing so he displays a great deal about his well balanced personality. Im sure where ever he works he is a good manager of people and a quiet achiver.
This is also the reason the aritcle has had very few posts and not much of input by people who most of the time prefer to slug it out with each other.

Ali

This article has been all about picking and choosing all the bad rituals, even those which are not prevalent these days.

And you are elated in your enthusiasm to put Hinduism down and adding more `mirch-masala` by quoting every possible irrelevant hindu ritual. If you quote the rituals of sacrifice that existed in India say 5 to 6000 years ago, then it means you ought to recognise Hinduism as the oldest religion. You also should realise that your ancestors were from this very land.
You don`t follow any Hindu customs(being converted you follow the irrelevant rituals of another religion). But modern day Hindus also donot follow the irelevant customs of Hidnuism. Times have changed.

How cleverly you try to justify the Islamic rituals and deem them to be perfect and far from any flaws. There are some writers at chowk like Bina shah who honestly accepted the futility of slaughtering innocent bakraas year after year and thus soaking your pakistani cities in blood-bath. C`mon...how many muslims actually do sacrifice with noble intentions. Isn`t it more of a feasting time?. Aren`t there many other ways of helping the poor and needy than harming inncocent lives.

And vedas? Are they all about rituals? Just spend more time reading the vast amount of goodness in philisophies of Geeta, Vedas, Puranas, Upnishads and all other Hindu books. I have a feeling that these being the oldest books, all other religons have many things overlapping with them. Guess why?

#31 by rsaxena on March 16, 2003 4:05pm PT

The purpose of the sacrifice of the bakara is not because Allah wants it but it is good for the people to know that he has to sacrifice something in the way of Allah. The sacrifice is basically for sharing your food with poor and relatives.

As for sacrifices in Hinduism and its need is clearly comes out in vedas. It is called propriating gods(note plural). The importance of these sacrifices as the major aspect of religion is clearly mentioned in the
vedas.

here is the first hymn from the rig veda the oldest of the vedas.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/rig_veda_book_1.htmv
HYMN I. Agni.

1 I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice,
The hotar, lavishest of wealth.
2 Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers.
He shall bring. hitherward the Gods.
3 Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day,
Most rich in heroes, glorious.
4 Agni, the perfect sacrifice which thou encompassest about
Verily goeth to the Gods.
5 May Agni, sapient-minded Priest, truthful, most gloriously great,
The God, come hither with the Gods.
6 Whatever blessing, Agni, thou wilt grant unto thy worshipper,
That, Angiras, is indeed thy truth.
7 To thee, dispeller of the night, O Agni, day by day with prayer
Bringing thee reverence, we come
8 Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant One,
Increasing in thine own abode.
9 Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son:
Agni, be with us for our weal.

Harimau you could include some more rituals in these from the north. Not all are stictly religous but as hinduism is described as a way of life im mentioning them. For example. among some Gujjars the mother offers her breast to the son publicly at the time of the marraige. The son is suppossed to suckle it. The ritual serves as a reminder of the the ``dood ka karaz``.
Among some jats (an antiquated custom but some times it is followed)it is reported that on the first night the bride is offerred to the eldest male of the household. This might include the father inlaw or at times his elder brother. The wife is considered common property of all brothers this is relatively more common. I witnesed this among poorer jats in delhi. The custom that the widow is offered to the brother is more common and even similar practice is followed in pakistan too. This though is usually validated by marriage. Though at one time it might have been a relif to the women and the orphan children to have a protector in earlier days.

Also you need to read up the vedas. the oldest and primary source of Hindu religion. They are full of sacrifices that you dont accept now. In fact the sacrifices were one of the key part of religion. With vegetarianism more common now among bhramins these sacrifices are replaced with antioning the Idols with butter, gheee, curd or even oil.
the aoniting of the gaint gomateshwara (Jain , but similar to hindu ritual) in karnataka with tons of butter, ghee and milk is done by helicoptor!!

veeresh #36 I am not sure exactly what kind of cruelty (physical torture, oppression, degradation) you are thinking of. Regardless of the kind of cruelty, I think the cause of cruelty resides in the human psyche, not in religion. Religion has indeed been used as a justification. But then, many other justifications have been used as well - revenge and patriotism being common ones. But ultimately cruelty is the result of a weak psyche - a bully, after all, is synonymous with a coward.

tahmed32 # 29 . . . valid, thanks. The other question that bothers me is to try to analyse at what stage do we as human beings accept cruelty to other human beings as being justified by religion? (I mean, cruelty to other human beings is natural I guess, food chain and all that?)

I have been trying to find out which of the older religions have managed to segregate cruelty and there are some interesting observations here . . . most of these religions were dying and probably are still dying. But they never ``died``, they sort of evolved into more powerful religions where cruelty is justified in the name of religion.

Comment?

Rituals, rituals and more rituals.

Is any religion all about rituals? Isn`t there more to Hinduism than all this written above.
Read Geeta, Vedas, Puranas..read about soul, about good deeds and also those rituals which are meaningful. Hinduism is Sanatan Dharma as well as Arya Samaj. What is the depth of Geeta..the moral support it gives. How Mahabharta teaches to be strong in heart and body and yet do ones duty.

Also, you could have explained why there is an Elephant God, that is what people would like to know. What are `mantras`... what is Ayurveds, Yoga. What does Ramayana consist. What are good things in it, what lessons we learn. What is non-violence all about?

Harimau...``Everything you wanted to know about Hinduism but were afraid to ask``.....now there is nothing in the above article that we wanted to know.

And harimau...I saw some of the rituals of Indonesian Hindus on TV...all the rites they performed after the Bali bombings. These (very different from Indian hindus) Hindus used some straws and sticks and something to purify the air and drive away the evil spirits...chantings too were funny. The rest of the world must be thinking that hinduism is all about `bhoot-pret`
I, as a north Indian Hindu just follow very simple rituals (hardly any)..I just read Geeta or some other books by various saints...and I pray(not necessarily `moorti-pooja`...so maybe I follow a very simplified version of hinduism and yet am happy.

And we can learn some new aspects of Hinduism from other countries like Nepal...also Fijian Indians are so very ritualistic.

{Compare this to the Catholics. On almost every feast day, in Italy, Spain and Latin America, they take out the Virgin Mary and Jesus in procession. At least the Protestants reformed Christianity out of a lot of these crazy observances and made it into a respectable religion. When the people of the Protestant nations such as America or England visit Catholic countries, they now view the processions as quaint; after all there is no public display of blood and gore, human or animal, so it is okay to indulge the simple-minded Catholics in their processionals.}
----hmmm. hmmm, hmmm, hmmm.
of course this is all based on a subjective, and as samina and perhaps sadna have even referred to a lofty position, so i wonder whether it even matters if i say something to the contrary here or not.
Today, in most/all Orthodox Churches, there were processions carrying the icons of Jesus, Mary and various saints who were either martyrs for the faith, or led exemplary Christian lives. Now for iconoclasts (which includes former protestants like me) this would come across as `quaint ritual`, but as a former Protestant, I think it`s rather sad that such processions and feast days have been taken out of their churches. I think that feast days of St. Patrick and other saints are a reminder of how much courage it took for these people to affirm their Christian faith when they knew the consequences that would follow. I don`t know much about Catholic feast days, although some of them are probably similar to the Orthodox (given it was all one in the beginning), but I also don`t believe the writer knows all that much about Christianity to say that the Protestants made it respectable. Having a procession on Good Friday, or Pascha--the day of Christ`s resurrection, or to venerate the cross He was crucified on doesn`t make a religion any less respectable.
just my two cents worth.

Even the Haj is treated by the Western press as an acceptable religious pilgrimage
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iyer sahib

So `western press` is the yardstick that you use to judge what is acceptable or otherwise?

Btw..your driver`s sweeping remaks about pretty much all the muslim seem to border on bigotry. I wonder what compelled you to use him as the unwitting spokesperson for islam (may be it`s his comments about pakis?)

....if there is a god, would he really care about religious rituals....does he give a damn if some bakra gets its head chopped off on eid or his idol is ``fed`` mithai and fruit on diwali?...wouldn`t he be concerned with issues more grand?....

Harimau:

While I would admit that this is a very good article, I would just like to make a small comment in response to your one aspect and to tahmed`s message at # 6:

If there were no rituals, the potential of cultural tourism would have been drastically slashed.

While I would not like to question beliefs, values and rituals, I would certainly like to stand against traditions like in our Pakhtoon - personal vendetta - i.e. settling old scores through blood, preventing females from going to school or to gynacologists for medical treatment, etc.

I am giving example from my culture so that I do not offend any one else. Others can draw examples from their own.

Gotta say it...don`t care what people say...enjoyed this very much.

As for rituals, that`s exactly what they are..rituals...until the desire to improve oneself in a field emerges and until the drive for such change is endogenous. Then, and only then, do some rituals become your aids, your tools, for change.

I think one has to experience life (with an emphasis on creation- be it a baby, a house, a project, a humanitarian effort, a country etc.) to its maximum before certain rituals can make any sense. Living the 9-5 life where you hit puberty at 12, finish your studies at 22, buy a house and a car at 24, get married at 25, have kids at 26, retire at 65 and die at 80, won`t make one appreciate life, religion or rituals at all.

Umer M.

Brat #26 and Veeresh: #8 In distinguishing between belief/ethics on the one hand and rituals on the other, I was not thinking in terms of (chronological) PHASES in the evolution of any religion. Rather, I was referring to them as LEVELS, that can exist side by side in any society, with some individuals stressing rituals, others stressing belief/ethics and still others stressing ethics only.
I think we need to add a fourth level. Tradition. This is the result of historical accident, not due to anything in the holy books. As an example, the wearing of the veil is tradition that did not start until a hundred years after the Prophet`s death, as a result of contact with the Constantinople based Byzantium christian society where woemn used to be veiled. And yet today, this tradition (borrowed from the one sect of the early christians) has become almost synonymous with Islam in the minds of countless muslim families. And yet, the Quran calls only for modesty in dress (which I think is good advice anyway), and the only part of the body it specifically asks women to cover are the breasts (which is again generally accepted practice anyway in virtually every society except the most primitive).
So: One can and should break with tradition I think. And since rituals are generally the result of tradition anyway, not due to anything in the holy books, one can and should question and do away with rituals that clearly are counter to common sense or common decency. Indeed, this way they become more religious, but in the true and positive sense of the word (belief and ethics). And they stop querrelling with one another, and doing nasty things to one another, due to differences that are based not on the core message of their respective religions and sects but due to primitive traditions inherited from a primitive past, or due to animosities built up due to events and individuals that have long died.