Saddam Hussein Lives!

good to see that a healthy debate is in progress on this board regarding Desi attitudes vis a vis Afro-Americans on one hand – and the Whites on the other.

Where do we really stand -- between the twain?

we have no history with the Whites -- we have no history with the Blacks -- we came with a clean slate -- apologetic immaculate new arrivals -- (we do carry rather proudly our own dirty laundry of discrimination and bigotry from our old place) --

We are the cream of the old civilization with silver spoons in our mouths -- intellectually, culturally, educationally and economically --

do we identify ourselves with the whites or the blacks? -- or do we stand alone -- or do we HAVE to identify with someone in this country?

Are we in AWE of one community and CONTEMPTUOUS of another? –

do we mix with one and shun the other -- do we really treat the white as equals or superior to us -- and the black of lesser intellect -- and inferior to us?

do we really think that the PARITY between the blacks and the whites has ALREADY been achieved -- during the `long` span of 40 years between 1963- 2003?

-- after the DISPARITY of -- a `short` three hundreds years -- of living under subhuman conditions FORCED and ENFORCED upon -- by ONE community agaisnt the other.

do we really think -- the Black CHOSE to live under slavery by the whites for the past three hundred years

or do we really believe that the BLACKS in 2003 are deliberately CHOOSING to remain in poverty, in filth and in drugs and in high crime.

and by the way let me ask my Desi uppity brethren one question:

did my Pakistanis and Indians friends really ‘CHOOSE’ to REMAIN colonized by the British Bull Dogs for two hundred years – and loved every moment of it?

and this is what amazes me most –

when a Pakistani friend of mine who did practically nothing -- for two centuries -- to wrest his own country`s freedom -- and HIS own freedom -- from the British enslavers --

who was bestowed freedom on a platter -- rather than fought for it --

and he should be the one who disparage the blacks or the Afro-Americans for -- the LACK OF TRYING!

#139 Sadhana
The probelm needs to be dealt with on both fronts: creating role models (how do you do this in a discriminatory atmosphere?) and exposing & protesting racism. There are some that do both, some that do neither & some that do one or the other. There are very few white leaders talking about discrimination and fewer still doing something beyond tokenism. Appealing to the base instincts of whites wins elections. Even Bill Clinton felt he had to attack some caricature of black culture. I have great respect for Jesse Jackson. Sure the man is flawed, but he has tried to bridge the gap between blacks and whites. He also is probably the first politician of any sginficance since Dr. King to embrace poor people in general, black or white. I don`t hink his personal flaws can eclipse his accomplishment in race relations.

#137 dost-mittar
I met Professor Khorana long after he had left wisconsin. No, i was not at UW.

soysauce #135
I agree with everything you say in your post. Immigrants have an advantage of knowing two societies, that things can be different, an advantage blacks and whites who are born Americans do not have.

Coming back to the need for role models, thats why a number of black leaders who invest less in promoting positive role models in their community and more in promoting reactive positions to whites would merit understanding but ALSO merit criticism- correct?

soysauce:
I didn`t know that there a note of passion in my post!
But I agree 100% with your latest post and was, indeed, saying so myself when I supported the positive role played by neocon blacks. I have frequently highly praised Bill Cosby for his hugely popular TV serial which portrayed a very successful black doctor and his equally successful lawyer wife. When the show first came, the characters had probably no counterpart in real-life America. But the show provided black children with a role model different from that of sports and entertainment stars or the neighbourhood drug-peddler wearing gold chains.
ps. Were you at UW?

#132 Sadhana
That`s a very valid question to ask of course. Another very reasonable question that`s often asked is how come poor immigrants (say, vietnamese) do much better than blacks. I think role models are absolutely important. This is often underestimated. I see black undergrads doing better in departments with black profs. That someone who probably comes from a similar background/history has made it and is doing well in the mainstream gives the student that extra boost of confidence. Same goes for female students, including white females. Until there are significant number of black (/women) lawyers, doctors, engineers, scientists, executives & politicians, it`s going to be a struggle. Affirmative action is supposed to bring that about but it has been hacked at and left wheezing for life.
Why are immigrants doing so much better? Because they have seen themselves be all these things (professionals, politicians, etc.) back home. So they have the self confidence that blacks lack and their history of discrimination in the white society is of a shorter length.
If i may interject a personal note, i happened to dine with Professor Khorana once when i was a student and that left me feeling that i could accomplish just about anything. This was interesting because people of his intellectual caliber i`ve met before and since usually leave me feeling somewhat intimidated. Don`t underestimate the power of role models.

#133 dost-mittar
Ji: I hope you`ll think about what you said dispassionately.

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soysauce:
Some people call the glass half-full, other call it half-empty; I prefer to call it half-full AND half-empty.

soysauce #130
There is a problem with the white attitude towards blacks, yes. There is often also a problem with the black attitude towards blacks.

This is a bit of a handwaving argument here since I donot have facts, which goes like this. Back in India it is sort of accepted that the reason poor people are poor and unable to improve their living standards is because of lack of opportunity, education, resources. Either there is no road, or there is no electricity or there is no water or there are no schools- or there is no credit available even if you have a steady income.

But take NY city - is any one of these things lacking? - thousands/10s of thousands come from 1000s of miles away from all over the world to take advantage of what are perceived as great opportunities to study or earn a living there - but those who are down and out in Harlem or Newark just a half-hour train ride away cannot do the same? I sometimes wonder about this.

#128 SaminaShah

{{Desis have tended to willingly inherit white supremacy when we immigrate here. Second generation, having studied history, tend to identify themselves with people of color.}}

I can`t meaningfully comment on Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, etc, due to a paucity of evidence (i.e, personal experience). To the extent that `desis` include Indians, I would posit the converse:

``Desis have tended to contemptuously reject colour-coded racial hierarchies when they immigrate here. Second generation, having willy-nilly been immersed in the dominant American social discourse as impressionable children and adolescents, tend to inherit white supremacy to the degree that American society permits them.``

It is a truism that one`s attitudes to race, colour etc. will tend to follow a different trajectory depending on whether one is a desi immigrant or American-born. Beyond that, so many personal and environmental variables enter into play that generalization is fraught with peril. I submit that your original assertions teeter dangerously on the precipice of invalid generalization - if not actually falling off the edge. Only the use of the word `tended` prevents me from rejecting them absolutely. I personally know people who are clear counterexamples to both your assertions - to the extent that my converse to your thesis appears just as easily supportable as yours. I can also sketch a psychologically plausible case for a desi immigrant emphatically repudiating racial supremacist notions. If you have any scientifically tenable evidence in support of your claim, I would like to see it.

Further, one does not have to `identify with people of colour` to reject `white supremacy`. And - while even a nitwit desi immigrant ought to figure out sooner or later that his civil rights are protected today largely because African-Americans fought and bled for decades - one can, and in fact should, reject racial supremacist notions on intrinsic grounds, independent of any study of history.

#127 dost-mittar
Ji: first off, you`re making an assertion that has no basis in fact. Secondly, even assuming what you say is true, when you`re addressing the power structure with your complaints you don`t say i know some of it is my fault. A society that discriminates and is in denial about it, is going to take advantage of any such admission. As it is, affirmative action programs are being gutted and laws aimed at bringing about equality are being dismantled. You don`t provide one more excuse to beat you with.
Every black figure of any significance has admitted there are problems within black family structure that need to be mended (by blacks themselves). I have a feeling that you brought up Jesse Jackson because he is prominant and not because of anything he has said. I`d be glad to be proven wrong.

BTW, Sendhil Mullainathan is a beautiful, pucca tamil name. Harimau Iyer, eat your heart out!

soysauce:
I did not deny that discrimination exists against blacks. Please read my statement again:
``The U.S is ill served now by leaders like Jesse Jackson and assorted liberal democrats who continue to blame their victimhood ALONE (caps added) and not ask their sisters and especially brothers to take responsibility for their own lives``.
I stand by this statement!

Soysauce, Dost, Courage, Nasah, Hamidm,

Desis have tended to willingly inherit white supremacy when we immigrate here. Second generation, having studied history, tend to identify themselves with people of color.

sattar2: You continue to ignore my basic question, while heaping invective on me.

#121 dost-mittar
Discrimination against blacks is a continuing reality, and not just some historical fact. Sendhil Mullainathan of MIT (McArthur ``genius`` grant awardee, 2002) published a paper a few months ago showing how prospective employers prefer to interview people with ``non-black names`` to those with ``black names`` but are equally well or even better qualified. Can you imagine who they`d try to hire in a face-to-face interview?
The suggestion that blacks have ghettoized themselves is at best a benign omission of history and the continuing social and economic discrimination against blacks and at worst racism which uppity desis suffer from.