Gujarat, Madrasas and Other Things

Good Effort!! The article beautifully brings out the pshchological churn that goes on in her mind. There are images galore;They all have names, attributes and associated memories. But, in this melee of emotions the point is not made. Sometimes, the author wants to lash out at the Sanghis, sometimes feel proud of her composite culture,what exactly does she want to say? That Gujarat violence highlights the fact that Hindus and Muslims are one nation? Or, a dialogue needs to be initiated between two huge religious communities because law-breakers burnt alive 60 innocent people and their friends in the other community returned the favour?

hmm.. one question arises in my mind..
do you think Shias and Sunnis cant live together in Pakistan? The Shias should have a separate homeland...?

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Oooh,Studes,thanks for your concern.

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Urbashi, Its pretty apparent how devious you are, and you seem to have perfected the art of evasion. Furthermore, i never talked about nuking india, as we have more of our muslim brethren in india than in Pakistan, but if it was all hindu, then that would be a different case. Now initially, you went on ranting about how the hyderabadi cuisine is not Mughal in origin, and how its the same as the hindu cuisine, and when i presented the facts, you started BS`ing about all these nuking business. And again you are lying to me when you tell me that the Muslim cuisine of hyderabad is as different from the cuisine in telngana as the difference in andhra cuisine and hyderabadi cuisine.Well why can`t you accept that Muslim - Mughal cuisine is different from the hindu cuisine, again more evident in the deccan areas. Actually to be honest with you i have never seen such a difference in two communities living in the same region as found between the urdu speaking muslims in the deccan areas and the south indian hindus of the dravidian stock. They are physically very different, they speak a totally different language, they have very different cultures and practises. And trust me even the caucasions of the west notice these distinct differences. You can pretend to be a nationalist all you want, but the fact of the matter is that most North Indians look down upon the south indians of the dravidian stock. And study your own religion and understand how the south indians and the lower caste (both of the dravidian indigenous stock) are treated in your own scriptures, actually the south indians, shudras and the adivasis arent even hindus, an undeniable fact, they are shaivites or tribals.

Syed, I`m convinced you`re quite, quite mad. I can`t believe that anyone with the least modicum of sense would be so deaf and dumb. I can`t stop you from imagining in the possibility of that absolutely ridiculous Pakistani hope of a Mughalistan, because Pakistan was after all built on the 2-nation theory which Indians of all religions and modes of belief reject, and it`s essential for your sense of identity to believe that one day..... etc, etc. I don`t think it`s going to be possible to interact with a madman. And I refuse to believe that all Muslims, even Pakistani Muslims, have the same kind of windmills in your head as you do. Certainly the Indian Muslims I know, and very closely, too, would feel very embarrassed indeed if they read what you write and feel worried that all of them might be tarred with the same brush. So this is my last response to you here. You don`t deserve civilized or rational discussion. All that you can do is to abuse. If only you were strong about your facts.
Indians don`t need to obsess about the ``na-pak`` Pakistan/is. We have enough variety and entertainment in our everyday lives, and are very sure of our COMPOSITE and PLURAL identity. As far as most of us are concerned you people are just a nuisance.
Please note that I`d written HYDERABADI, not Andhra, cuisine. Hyderabad is a distinctive region of the present-day Indian State of Andhra Pradesh, and is very proud of its special cuisine. As Bilkees Latif points out in her definitive book on the cuisine of this region ( as you can see, she`s not a Hindu but a Muslim - and BTW, she`s a daughter of the late Nawab Ali Yavar Jung of a famous Hyderabadi noble family, a resident of Hyderabad, and the wife of a retired Air Chief Marshal), The Essential Andhra Cookbook, the founding of the Nizam`s dynasty itself was associated with food - no, not typically ``Muslim`` food but the kulcha, which is hardly Muslim. (FYI, when the general Asaf Jah I was sent by Aurangzeb to Hyderabad, the Sufi saint Hazrat Nizam-ud-din Aulia (venerated by Hindus and Muslims alikeas symbolizing the great syncretic Indian traditions, as you clearly don`t know) shared some of his kulchas with him. After the general ate 7 and said he couldn`t have any more the saint blessed him, saying that he and his descendants would rule Hyderabad for 7 generations. Which is exactly what happened. The Nizam`s flag had a kulcha on it, too.) Anyway, this is what Mrs Latif writes:
``Over time, people from different regions and various communities have settled in Hyderabad and enriched its cuisine. Parsis, Kayasths, Marwaris and Anglo-Indians, among others, brought with them their traditions and their food and helped create the cultural ethos that is the special charm of Secunderabad and Hyderabad, the twin cities. This process of assimilation is at the heart of the Hyderabadi culture and cuisine.`` (Introduction, pages xiii-xiv) The food of Hyderabad is as different from traditional Andhra cooking, Hindu or Muslim, as it is from Telengana, another part of Andhra.
Mughlai food anywhere in India was a product of the INTERACTION of the Tartars, the Persians and the Turks with the local population, usually Hindu but sometimes Muslims too. It is NOT foreign to India. You can shout all you want, but that doesn`t change anything. I know it`s very difficult for you to accept that India has assimilated all cultures and made them her own. You want to believe in a Pristine Pure Muslim world. But that`s not the way things happened. And if you read history you`ll realize that this is the way of the world, everywhere, at all times. As I said earlier, I would much, much rather not have anything in common with the Pakistanis (notice I don`t abuse them, much as I`d like to, because I realize that they`re not necessarily to blame for their mad mullahs and their politicians), but unfortunately I do have more in common with them than with Caucasians in the West! Why do you think you can`t rid yourself of the ``corrupt Hindu practices`` you write of? Because they`re not Hindu at all, they`re part of human nature. No Hindu holy man or scripture sanctions these ``corrupt practices``. What Hinduism really believes in is the kinship of all the universe and the importance of letting every human being discover his or her own way to God. We have neither a Pope nor one scripture to dictate things to us. We believe all ways of reaching God are equally to be revered and respected. I know that this is something you can`t accept, because your identity depends on an unbending alterity - a clash of civilizations. For us, there`s no clash of civilizations. There`s a meeting place of civilizations, where we can all learn from each other if we want, and if we don`t want to do so we can go on with our lives without trying to convert people to our point of view. Call us pagans if you like, kafirs if you like. It doesn`t change things. If you are the pits, the dregs of humanity, it doesn`t stop us from trying to be better human beings. It`s your loss, not ours.
Yes, of course India has constantly been invaded by outsiders. They all came to loot and plunder and were so fascinated that they stayed back and became a part of us. BTW, the invasions were all from the west - i.e. from the western borders of present-day Pakistan, whose people were all such poor warriors that they lost practically every battle, whenever they attempted to defend themselves. Now what does that tell you about your national character? Your history doesn`t go back just to the Muslim invasions, you know! Just as you`ve lost every single war against India. So don`t talk rubbish about nuking us. Just be thankful for the US, who`s protecting you. You couldn`t even use all the arms and ammunition you`d got from abroad because you didn`t know how to use them. We could nuke you all to perdition before you knew what was happening to you.
And try not to be so abusive and vitriolic especially about things you know absolutely nothing about, just read about in weird sites like mughalistan. Try to meet a few Indian Muslims and learn about the reality of India.

Hey Syed,what are you smoking?
Indians do not have an obsession with Pakis.I never knew Pakis think so much about India before I came to chowk!About all the invasions-well,only countries that have anything to offer the invaders ever get invaded.Therefore,you need never worry about Pakistan as long as you leave India alone.Anyway,if we`re so bad at war,what does that make Pakistan,never able to win a single war,in spite of trying so hard?super bad?
If you are going to talk about things,do get your facts right.I hope you`re young because you`re very stupid,and the only excuse for this would be youth.You have never been to India and you imagine you know everything about the country.Why are you so concerned about India anyway,as a Canadian or British or whatever citizen??No wonder Western intelligence agencies are so suspicious of Muslims.I always get people telling me(they`re sympathetic because they know India has a border with the epicentre of terrorism) Muslims should not be allowed to enter this beautiful country.Somehow,I also understand now for the first time why John Howard is so adamant he does not want any refugees,mainly Muslim,in the country.Who would,if they all behave like you??You have no respect for anything or anybody not mentioned in the Koran,you`re worse than an illiterate Bedouin.At least he has never seen any better.
Who`s going to nuke out India??Pakistan??Would the US lend you the money to do it?You`d devastate your own country because of the fallout.Not that that would matter because there would be no Pakistan after that anyway.Remember India is not Norway.We can afford to lose people in war,even though it sounds terrible to say so. Muslims would be as dead as Hindus.You cannot even get your ``brother`` Arab countries to support you,and you`re imagining Mughalstan,whatever that is.Dream on,like we say in Hindi(surely not in Urdu??),dreams come free.If it keeps you happy in your delusional moments and out of a straitjacket,good for you.

In response to urbashi
I did not want to discuss this anymore, but you have forced me to. First on the hyderabadi cuisine, well i would have to say bluntly that you are lying when you tell me that hyderabadi muslim cuisine is the same as the traditional hindu Andhra cuisine. And trust me all your google searches will point to the fact that the Deccani muslim cuisine originated with the Mughals. There is absolutely no question about that. Secondly, you are lying when you tell me that the Mughal cuisine is as disparate in its various derivations as the hindu cuisine found anywhere in India. Hindus have adopted the non-vegetarian Muslim cuisine, but its foreign to India. Why can`t you guys admit the fact that your country was conquered by every tom, dick and harry, from the aryan invasions to the Muslim ``INVADERS`` to the Biritish colonialists. It seems like you have this obsession with us Muslims and want to form this false sense commonality, where we are trying to disown all the corrupt hindu practises which we might have adopted after conquering your country. And let me post what the official site of Hyderabad says about its cuisine, and let me remind you this is what the Hindus of hyderabad are promoting, not what the muslims are claiming:

Hyderbadi
Umm! The mouth watering Shahi cuisine of Hyderabad. As soon as a person hears the mention of Hyderabadi Biryani, he starts whetting his appetite! The wafting aroma hits you before you set your eyes on the delicious mounds of fragrant, steaming rice with the tempting sight of a traditionally cooked chicken peaking out! It is so popular that it takes a special mention in the world of cuisine`s. A part from this king of the delicacies, the entire Shahi Nizam cuisine is very popular for its rich and aromatic taste. ``The food is a dream of deliciousness``, said the Persian Ambassador who came to the Qutub Shahi Kingdom in 1603. The elaborate Dastarkhan, on which are place steaming hot dishes of dum ka murgh, a baked chicken full of savoury herbs and spices. Lagan ke kebab, bhagare bhaingan, machili ka qualiya, mirch ka salan, haleem, and different kinds of Biryanis severed with Bhurani. Even the desserts are world renowned. Khubani ka meeta, badaam ki jaali, hub ke laoz, azam jahi meetha, etc, satiate you beyond imagination.

Another speciality eaten very early in the morning is Nahari, a curried soup of sheep`s trotters and tongue. It cooks all night, and a nothing stale is considered edible, it is served up right away in soup bowls, and you drunk in piece of spongy Sheermahal bread. And during the festival day of Id-ul-Fitr, it is traditional to serve sheer quorma, the delicious kheer, made with sevian, dried fruits and dates.

This cuisine owes its origins to the Mughalai style of cooking of the Asaf Jahi period. By carefully mellowing and nurturing the typical Mughalai flavours with a blend of spices, the cuisine of Hyderabad was born. While there is a certain exotic quality to some of the royal foods, it is also known that a true Hyderabadi will go any where in the city for a well prepared dish, however humble its origin.

For those who want a taste of the royal menu, there is a variety of Biryanis (a rice and meat preparation, seasoned with spices and flavourings); Kababs (meat pieces or minced meat cooked in many different styles such as Boti Jhammi, kalmi, Shikampur, Sheek, Lagan-ke-kababs, Dum-ke-kababs); Khormas (either meat or vegetables cooked in a rich creamy gravy) and Lukhmi (pastry). During the month of Ramzan, one gets to taste Haleem (a pounded wheat and meat preparation). For those who prefer more homely food, there is Kichri (a rice a lentil preparation); Kheema methi (minced meat with fenugreek); Nahari ( stew of tongue and lamb trotters); Rumali Rotis (bread as thin as a handkerchief) and Chakna (a spicy dish of meat).

For vegetarians there is Bagara Baingan (a rich spicy preparation of aubergines); Mirch-ka-salan (chillies in a creamy gravy); Tomato kut (aromatic puree of tomato with flavourings); and Shahi dahi vadas (lentil dumplings in youghurt sauce).

For dessert, on can have a pick from Double-ka-meetha (a bread and cashewnut pudding); Qubani-ka-meetha (stewed apricod dessert); Anday-ka-piyosi (made with eggs, mild, almonds and purified butter); Badam-ki-jhab (marzipan) and Dil-e-Firdaus ( a rich, milk-based sweet).

Good Places Firdaus (Krishna oberoi, Banjara Hills) Dhak (Gateway Hotel, Banjara Hills), Hotel Akbar (M.G.Road), Azizia Hotel (Nampally), Hotel Madina (Pattargatti), Garden Restaurant (S.D.Road), Banjara Darbar (Panjagutta), Hotel Parwez (Nampally). Many small hotels and restaurants around the Charminar area also offer some authentic Hyderabadi dishes - a few of them serve `Haleem` throughout the year. The Chaknawadi around Charminar area is famous for its `Chakna`, but one must go before 2.00 P.M.

Andhra & the South Indian
The Andhra cuisine is distinct for its hot and spicy food with a range of chutneys, curries, meat preparations and pickles. One can also taste the cuisines of Karnataka (Udipi) and Tamil Nadu - the omnipresent dosas, idlis and vadas.

Good Places Raaga (Holiday Inn, Banjara Hills), Amaravathi (Hyderguda), Abhiruchi (S.D.Road), Hotel Rajdoot (Lakdi-ka-pul), Abhilasha (R.T.C x Roads), Hotel Indu Deluxe (Saifabad). For vegetarian cuisine: Taj Mahal Hotel (Narayanguda, Koti, S.D. Road & Abids), Hotel Shanbagh (Panjagutta, Basheerbagh), Mithila (Koti), Kamat Hotel (Nampally, S.d. Road. Saifabad)

In resp to urbashi:
In reply to the idea of Mughalistan, well insha`Allah one day we will have a mughalistan, right now our ummah might be weak, but history tells us that this is not a never ending phenomenon, we will be strong once again as an ummah, and will reconquer all the lands that we have lost to the pagans. This is what our religion teaches us, and all your obsession of trying to bond with the muslims of South Asia will not change what our Quran majeed tells is, which victory over the kuffar and pagans.

Honourable_Syed, of all the articles listed in Google (the search engine) on the origin of Urdu, you would have to choose the only one that asserted the non-Indian origin of Urdu, wouldn`t you? Isn`t that being devious? No doubt you`d prefer to show that you believe this one and only article in an Iranian journal rather than impartial historians and linguisticians. Of course, there are also those Pakistani wishful thinkers who plan for what they call a ``Mughalistan`` on the net who also quote from/refer to the self-same article/``scholar``, and deliberately misintepret Khullar. Why don`t you go through Khullar`s article yourself for a change?
As for food, there are very obvious regional differences in cuisine even within language groups. For instance, there are strking variations between the cuisines of East and West Bengal. But, except for the fact that Bangladeshi Muslim cooking uses beef while Bangladeshi Hindu cooking doesn`t, there`s hardly any noticeable difference. But any Bengali, whether Hindu or Muslim, would easily tell you that a particular dish traditionally belongs to East or West Bengal but wouldn`t be able to specify whether it was Hindu or Muslim. Similarly, Hyderabadi Muslim cooking is far different from Avadhi or Mughal cuisine (or NW Frontier cuisine) and closer to Hyderabadi Hindu cooking, especially of the non-vegetarian kind. Of course, I`m talking about traditions generally, because, as someone just pointed out here, people of all regions eat all kinds of food from different areas nowadays. It`s a real pity you know so little about India, you just believe what you want to when people like the ones who`ve got up that site on ``Mughalistan`` would like to say! Why don`t you ask Indian Muslims themselves?
BTW, a Syed is my colleague in the workplace, and she happens to be much darker than I am, and I`m not even North Indian. In fact, she`s even darker than another colleague, an elderly Ansari. And it was she who explained all the ``class/caste` distinctions among South Asian Muslims to me. The average Tam Bram and the Kodavus (earlier called the Coorgis), both South Indians, and some Maharashtrian Brhamins, are also generally fairer than most North Indian Muslims. So let`s not talk about colour, shall we? Why should you think anybody who doesn`t agree with you is lying? You know nothing about India, so how can you make comments about people and their customs without any first=hand information or acquaintance?

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I would like to know what gives Honorable_Syed the idea he knows more about Hyderabad and Bangalore than people who belong there.By your own admission,you were brought up in the west,which means you have only seen your religion and culture in theory,not really in practice-impossible in a Western country.There is therefore a lot you cannot understand.You want religions to be judged by their scriptures not by their followers.I remember hearing the same thing about Marxism and we know how that ended.
How arrogant of you to tell somebody he is not fair skinned when he claims he is,when you wouldn`t know him from a bar of soap.What are you,the colour police,like in apartheid South Africa?Can I ask your white neighbour how fair you are?
How about trying to teach South Indians,Hindu or Muslim about their own cuisine?Food is one of my own passions,and there is no doubt there are subtle differences between Hindu and Muslim food in most areas.I know this has already been discussed,but you cannot compare Hyderabadi food with Bengali Muslim food(Rezala,anyone?) or Moplah food(which has become fashionable all of a sudden,apparently).Tamil Muslims do eat idlis and dosas(sorry for the stereotyping!) .Bengali Muslims wax as lyrical about a good hilsa as much as Bengali Hindus.You have never been to India,what gives you the right to talk about it like you`re some sort of Indologist?
Urdu`s not an Indian language,and as proof you furnish an article from the Iranian?This is just one scholar.How many more are there that do not agree with him?It`s nice for an Iranian to think his ancestors invented everything.Self-evident really.Would you mind going up to Wajid Ali Shah`s tomb(in Calcutta) and telling him that?The poor man died thinking it was Indian and completely unaware it began in the Deccan.Since you think so highly of the Iranians,would you please ask them if they have any plans of returning the Peacock Throne Nadir Shah stole from his fellow Muslims,the Mughals?

#307 by Honorable_Syed on June 12, 2003 4:29pm PT

you better belive me. Or wait till there is a India -pak entete and travel to hyderabad and bangalore.
any way even if there is a bit of difference what does it matter. Does it matter if mulsims eat masaladosa and hindus eat chettinaad chicken?

The first thing that the Honorable Syed and others should realize is that even the role of the ``scriptures`` is very different in Hinduism than it is in Islam. This is true in many dimensions.

I`d say, the word ``scriptures`` itself is a misnomer, because it has the connotation of script or writing. The most important of Indian works have been transmitted for an enormous part of their history orally.

Second, the scripture is not final. It can only lead one initially towards moksha, nirvana, but ultimately, the spiritual aspirant must transcend the instructions. It does not take precedence over observed reality. As Adi Sankara said, a hundred pronouncements of the shruti cannot make fire cold. It is not a subject of belief, as belief is prescribed for the Quran or Bible. There is no even psychological equivalent to the ``La illaha illallah`` in Hindu practice. If Islam, Judaism and Christianity are religions, and we find the essential elements of them, then ``Hinduism`` ``Buddhism``, ``Jainism``, etc., are simply not religions, they are something else.

If you look at it historically, both Muslims and Christians came to India, imposed their own pre-conceptions on the people, even to the extent of giving them the name ``hindus``, and the category of religion on them and utterly ignoring what is actually there. There is little evidence, for instance, that anyone actually lived under the much maligned Manusmriti, until the British came along; and seeking to standardize Indian law in its bewildering per-village complexity, *imposed* the Manusmriti as the standard law. And this arrogance continues to this day. Hindus have absorbed and internalized much of this during the millenium of constantly being attacked. As Hindus climb out of this trough, please recognize Hindutva is only a fringe of this changing self-knowledge and attitude; shed your arrogance, and find out what the Indictraditions are really about.

-Arun Gupta

To all people who have indulged in this dialogue. It was a good discussion, and I have learnt a lot, and hopefully everyone has too. I didn`t intend on offending others, but its a price you have to pay sometimes, and the good that came out of it, surely outweighs the bad. I hope there are no hard feelings.