The Follies of the Natives

re: Dost-Mittar # 135

Thanks for a series of productive interacts. I will let you have the last word and bid you adieu, as I take a two week vacation trekking and camping. I will be back on Chowk after July 4th!

Best Wishes!

Ciao

ferozk:
My prescriptin was meant for both sides. Let me explain: When in negotiations, even with an adversary, you become a partner with your adversary; if you succeed they succeed, if they fail, you fail. This is why both Kissinger and his Vietnamese counterpart got the Nobel prize. Musharraf forgot this cardinal principle at Agra and started scoring points over his counterparts, this is why I gave his example.

re: Dost-Mittar

Adversial relations is what the problem and it is very difficult to step away from it. Even though I would agree with you, I would still say that blaming Musharraf for all the problems is not going to solve the issue. We have a distinct perception of India and Indians have a perception of Pakistan and it reinforces this adversial relationship.

I can agree with you to an extent, but I will not agree to the proposition that there is no anti-Pakistani sentiments in India, as you seem to be suggesting. The problem is on both sides and cannot be geographically confined to one side of the fence.

Ciao

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Tipu#113
Good post. Now, I expect you to show more respect for your ancestors and their achievements in your future posts:-).

Alephnull, Sridhar:
The Indian system of government is different from the free-wheeling American system where the concept of party and cabinet discipline is somewhat looser than in the Parliamentary democracies, such as India. But even in the U.S, most of the disagreements are not voiced openly but aired through inspired leaks. And once the decision to proceed in Iraq was taken, even the dovish Powell went all out to defend it in the U.N.

ferozk:
``Would you agree that the clarity of statements, on both sides, can be considered as a confidence building measure?``
For the peace process to succeed, it is even more important that the respective leaders understand the compulsions of their negotiating partners (yes, during negotiations, they should be considered as partners and not adversaries - this was the single biggest mistake committed by Musharraf at Agra!) and try to seek for the positive in their statements. Indeed, this was the first step I had mentioned in my roadmap in the article ``the beginning of the end of the kashmir problem``.

sameerJB:
``Don`t you wish that god should have revealed his messages in mathematical forms instead of prose or poetry.``
Ah, but then, the Puppeteer wouldn`t be having the fun He is having as we perform the programmed roles assigned to us. Maybe, the Indian sages were not wrong in calling this world ``Bhagwaan kee leela``. And now, even the non-mutant children of Abraham are wondering if we are all in a programmed matrix. The only way to get out of this `maya-jaal` of the matrix is to follow the path of the Buddha.:-)

re:#107 by dost-mittar
When i was doing residency in New York, an Indian lady neurologist wore a Sari and a bindi to work everyday. She was very popular.
I think in the past people in the subcontinent had been wearing a particular kind of dress depending on the weather of the area they lived in. I know for sure that the kind of dress South Indians wear in deep south (Dhoti or lungi) fits well with the hot, humid tropical climate. How did dress come to be termed Islamic or HIndu, i do not know. I know for sure that a lot of girls think it trendy to wear salwar kameez in Madras and these are south indian women!
Imagine wearing a tight fitting Gene in the hot climate of Madras! I shudder to think!
sridhar

#125, Tipu: Your comment completely flabbergasts (with its rationality) me when I look at it in the background of your earlier comments.
I unhesitatingly agree with you this time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tipu:

``MUSLIM DO NOT SAY NONMUSLIM WONT OR MUSLIM DEFENITELY WILL RECEIVE SALVATION.............. ``

Hey, we believe you. Try telling that to Naqshbandi.

re:#121 by pakfin
You are right only if it is true that Aryans did come from outside. Some serious Indologists are questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory.
Sridhar

re:#120 by Tipu
``Thus my definition of a Secular Muslim is the one who does not impose his/her beliefs on others, is not dogmatic, lets others practice their
creed and practices humanism, as Ghalib preached.``

I for one agree with your definition of Secularism.
I am a great admirer of Ghalib but my knowledge of his poetry is limited to what i learnt from the T.V serial wherein Naseeruddin Shah performed superbly as Ghalib. Again i am not well versed with Urdu and can just about understand some simple urdu sentences. But of what i have read of Ghalib, I believe he went beyond the narrow confines of religion.
If God is everywhere, why do we search for Him only in temples and mosques. He was, i think, talking of Omnipresence of God when he jocularly said in the verse:
``Saki Sharab Peeney de mujhe masjid pe bait kar
Ya Phir Woh Jagah bata jahan par Khudah na ho`` (i may be off the mark here but this is what i remember of the verse).
Sridhar

pakfin #122 If you had read my complete post, you would have realized that I said exactly what you are saying.

You have thus been caught red handed commenting on my post without reading it!! Do not attempt to escape or move! The ninja men in black helicopters have been dispatched to capture you and take you to that special torture wing reserved for those who comment on my posts without properly reading them.

#53 by tahmed32 on June 14, 2003 11:47am PT
ferozk #49 So lets see: what is the national dress of pakistan? Sherwani and Jinnah cap.

What makes a national dress? Is it what the majority of the population wears or is it something that a leader wore?

A sherwani can not be called Pakistani national dress just because Jinnah wore it. How many people do you see running around in Pakistan wearing sherwanis? If anything the sherwani is more Indian than Pakistani and was brough over to Pakistan by migrants from Lucknow.

#30 by dost-mittar on June 13, 2003 12:57pm PT
ferozk:
First of all if we look at more recent history, we will find that most Pakistanis are decendants of Indian Hindus. However, there may be a few who decended from the Arab invaders.

If we go frther back in history, we will find that it is the Dravidians who are the original Indians and the Aryans of India whether they are in todays Pakistan or India are decendants of Persians, Turks and Central Asians, with a few Greeks thrown in for good measure.