The Racist Within

wajahat

Only my heart makes me tick dude

What ever makes you tick, PZ, What ever makes you tick :)

wajahat


~~Do you feel as a society we have any chances of improving if we do not interrogate not only the Fundamentalist or the Masses that have been brainwashed by whatever rots at the heart of our Social demise, but also the extreme adherence to western influenced perspectives that permeate our Society.~~

Moral relativism of the most pathetic kind.The charter for perpetual self pitying victimhood. Said`s true legacy. The left has got into bed with theocratic fascists in its unexpurgated hatred of America and the West under the guise of criticising ``the extreme adherence to western influenced perspectives that permeate our Society``....pure Marxist cant and a reworking of extreme leftist hatred of the Great Satan and its pretenders.

That is my interrogation of you and your beliefs. Because we need to interrogate everything, right?

Let me first thank you for the intelligent discourse (A First ) on the perils of leftist thinking. But as you brush me with the Marxist, Leftist, Delusionary a la Grande Brush Strokes, and as you said and I quote ``your own being the result of a single overarching conspiracy of mass brainwashing within a culture that is in `desperate need of interrogation`.`` Everytime I try desperately to interrogate, I am berated by Anti-Leftist rhetoric, I tell you what, I could go one forever denigrating your points but I wont. We can close this Argument by stating two things, First I have requested you not to make me the Issue, But I can see that you are not willing to let go or see beyond that, Secondly, Be Cool and answer one thing, Do you feel as a society we have any chances of improving if we do not interrogate not only the Fundamentalist or the Masses that have been brainwashed by whatever rots at the heart of our Social demise, but also the extreme adherence to western influenced perspectives that permeate our Society. I could go on and try and tell you what scathing and indepth questions I have for my own society and their choice of religious intolerance. But What about the Orientalist perceptions that keeps widening this Gap between the Westerners and the Fundoos. Let me give you a quick example from your statement, If you feel I am squealing Leftist, Your engagement is hostile at best, thus the gulf between us widens. I asked a very simple question, do not think about Said, Marx(Who I detest) or the perception that your have for me, But just try to answer my question. But I do honestly believe that one of our major solution is not to widen the gaps between ourselves but to engage and keep engaging.

One last thing I would state is Edward Said only proclaimed to be Humanist and never ascribed officially to the leftist argument. I guess at the end of the day its all about fences, and which sides we find ourselves on.

Wajahat

~~If you feel that patronising should be kept in check than you obviously dont believe in freedom of speech~~

You seem to be quite confused if you deduce that from my statement. Try to retain some perspective and dont get carried away with your own rhetoric.

I was commenting on the remarkable degree of self righteousness and pomposity that accompanies the footsoldiers of Marxism and Said and the degree of ideological delusion that ascribes to generalities of people attributes deduced from their own personal ``insights`` and readings of the works of their masters. The delusion to speak for other people and berate them on the basis of contested interpretations of history and society, to describe swathes of people as ``racists`` on the basis of their not agreeing with you or your own beliefs, whining self-flaggellation and the interpreting of peoples political/social/cultural beliefs in opposition to your own being the result of a single overarching conspiracy of mass brainwashing within a culture that is in `desperate need of interrogation`.

Such sulking and libel just because they hold differing views and ways of looking at the world. Such self righteousness and pomposity. I am all for interrogating all aspects of society but why is it that when the self appointed radicals of the left start to be interrogated themselves, they start to squeal so loudly?

PunjabiZulu

The name is a bit of give away but I will not resort to character assasination. My Reply to your overzealous question is not a refute of the qualities that you have ascribed to me by the few interactions that you have read and estimated that I patronise, am Self-righteous and Pompous. I hope you have sound reason and facts to use these words and not just some of the hateful yet non-censorable words you could come up with whilst posting your interact. Anyways I feel I owe you a reply.

If you feel that asking a question that patronises all of us (myself included) has come about without the stark personal examination known in URDU as ``Girayban main Jhankana`` than you are wrong. I have felt complicity in these attitude and challenged my own perception, I arrived at what I feel is the right thing to do. I ask the same question to the Chowkies feeling that what we have here is a lot of very intelligent people who would counter or confirm what I say, some got offended by this, other tried to make sense. If you feel that patronising should be kept in check than you obviously dont believe in freedom of speech, Dont read into me, read into the message I am trying to convey. I am not the issue here, the issue is about acquired oreintalism, tackle that. Self-Righteous, I dont think I ever contested the issue of who is righteous or who is not, we are all right and wrong at the same time, thats the irony of our lives. But to question whats right, do you feel it poses behind Self-Righteousness. I dont think so, I hoped to be proven wrong, to hearing some sound arguments against my point of view. Instead aparts from Saminasha, nooralain, rozaiba, people choose to abuse me for believing in what I stated.

No regrets however PunjabiZulu, as long as the sane, balanced, down to earth people like yourself and Fuzair exist in this world, you will continue to come across patronising, self-righteous and pompous people like me, maybe the key is for you to hear what we are saying and not who we are?

And the questioning continues....

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/review/review5.htm

I think it is a smart thesis.

wajahat

Why do ideologues like you always sound so patronising, self-righteous and pompous?

The question of Hollywood Movies was raised in strict reference to the current Outlook of Blacks In America. Our Inherited Racism from the Sub-Continent is a Fact of History(Filtering into today) that cannot be denied and your points are valid and factual. Whilst we are on history our preference for gora chitta dates even further back from the British Colonisation into the Muslim Colonisation era and the growth of North India and Muslim Population.

Of Blinders, it is a stark human Reality that our comfort takes precedence over everything else, and to exist in that comfort we have to enclose ourselves in some very High Walls (As you call blinders). I guess we have a lot of very comfy desis amidst us whose walls provide them with the comfort levels that only utter ignorance can ensue. Good Luck to them, but it means that some of us will have to double our efforts. A recent example is that some of us were in a Asian Community Centre asking people to join us in a Protest March whilst President Bush was in UK, I cannot tell of the kind of rebukes we recieved from some of our older Gents about How ungrateful we were to the West and How we will end up in Guantanamo. It was both amazing and sad to hear such detestation from these people for us, and we dont even sport beards or provoke on the name of Islam, (Ou Group is a mix of All nationalities and religion). I guess this Asian Ghettoisation has provided a blissful ignorant domain for these people to exist in, as long as they dont tread upon any questions aparts from Economic Servitude. But , it will change. We will change.

syed,
correct me if i`m wrong, but are you saying that the negative feelings we as pakistanis (or indians) have for african-americans has to do with acquiring racist outlooks from hollywood movies?
how does this affect the older generations of desis, the baby boomers (myself being at the cutoff point), and those prior to the baby boomers? the ones who weren`t necessarily exposed to something called hollywood movies and gangland rap? things like fair and lovely, or any other skin color formula have been in existence for ages. do you really think that a makrani being put down, or my very dark cousin being taunted as a `kaala kaloota` in school have anything to do with hollywood movies? remnants of colonialism perhaps, but hollywood movies, i don`t think so.
i believe that the preference for light over dark goes way back, further than when india was colonized by the british (and i say india because pakistan did not exist then). and those ideas have continued. . .i think we do have the colonialists to thank for referring to africans as savages, and worse things than that. . .and that perhaps we`ve inherited such language from our colonial masters. but i`m not going to place the blame solely on hollywood movies, not when it comes denigrating darker skinned peoples. the feelings that some of us desis have developed towards blacks, towards arabs have to do with ignorant generalizations. i don`t deny that. but if you are going to present a picture, or want to put forward a solution, or begin a discourse on this, we can`t just attribute years of prejudice on the part of pakistanis and indians as emanating especially from hollywood movies. there is more to the story than that.

sometimes we listen so carefully to what people are saying in the media, and we expect them to say something that sounds suspect, or prejudiced. i was, for some bizarre reason, watching world cup golf on television this morning. (i haven`t developed an appreciation for golf as of yet), and the commentators were talking about how it was really nice to see the lesser folk on the greens along with the big powers of golf like the u.s, britain, scotland etc., and as soon the one commentator had said that, he mentioned the indian golfers who were present, and my first reaction was, `whaddya mean by indians being lesser people?`, but then i tried to put it in the context of golf, and perhaps while indians may be mahirs at cricket, and hockey, they may not necessarily be so at golf? i don`t know. i don`t know how popular golf is in india so i cannot comment on that.

anyway. . .i think if you, or i, or any of us here are going to challenge those desis who do agree with the invasion of iraq, the demonization of arabs, the ignorance when it comes to the palestinians then we do have to come up with stronger reasons, more substantial arguments. it is there for us all to see, it`s just that some of us are wearing thicker blinders than others.
regards.

#14 Nooralain

You raised a valid point about my ironic generalisation of Expats but I was very careful to use the word ``Widely Held`` and I gave some very specific statements in reference to that. I personally hate generalisation of any kind and I apologise if I bring across this idea. The very fact that Anti-War Organisations and Relief NGOs in many western countries are run by Expats who invest their time and effort into working towards issues effecting the Muslim Nations. My Argument was aimed towards a large number of us who actually do come out strongly in support of the Western Imperialist Designs.

You also raised two very important points about Arabs and our Perception of the Blacks. How do we end up forming judgement about african americans or Blacks if you will without ever being exposed to one in Pakistan. It has always been one of the acquired racist outlooks emanating specially from Hollywood movies, Gangland Rap and the way western media portrays the Black Community. I personally came across a freind who was going out with Black Person , being held accountable by her parents and one of the very first arguments raised by the father was that if it had to be outside the community, why not white....Somebody recently wrote an article about Fair And Lovely Nation, the terms used for the precedence of whiter skin over black. I know these at some stage become trivial issues but arent these ignorant generalisation that form part of our collective identity.

About the Arabs, Our perceptions about them are a minefield, and most of them are quite true. The way Arab societies have transformed into this consumerist oil dependent entities is quite sad and mix that with their backward attitude towards race (Treatment of Subcontinental Workforce a case in point) it is ever so hard to give them any credit. Yet as diaspora communities we tend to discredit and bash before we try and look at the issues that are more important. My Article in a way also wanted (Lack of Skills on my Part) touch upon our interminable silence on many of the issues that needs our vocal presence. I am glad that you feel the way you feel and can be honest about a lot of issues, But dont you feel its also neccessary to air these issues and keep challenging each others perception until we arrive somewhere where we might even remotely resemble that overused term of UNITY. Infact that is my challenge to you, yes we are all different and hold different views but isnt it time that we really come to some conclusion as to where we can drive the collective fate of our regions. Our Silence, Our Disappointments and Our Misfortunes should not let us fade away from our responsibility, as expats we have the unique power to change things and attitudes and we should take on this responsibility however challenging our position might become.

# 15 Rozaiba

Your argument about lack of Independent institutions is absolutely the basis of some very major issues, therefore I coudnt agree with you more. I think the reason lies in your example of the Pak Army, and what is happening in Pakistan right now, Heil Musharraf`s Kingship nurturing a ToyStore Civilian Infrastructure which would further weaken our civilian governments for decades to come. Pakistanis have been as a nation so abused by everyone that we find ourselves continuously between a rock and a hard place. A corrupt Civilian Government or a Self Serving/Aggrandising Army Rule in Musharraf`s Case. I really recommend rozaiba that you study the Hammood-ur-Rehman Commision report and picture it builds that specially in Army, Governmental Power Corrupts and absolute Power corrupts Absolutely. Why have strong Institutions when you can depend on your local Army to do it for you, as long as you dont ask how they do it and what a mess they make of it. The first sign of this and in reference to media is the birth of several Channels that actually do not take the Govt. tow and signs of independent thought in the media are beggining to grow. ( The author is actually Involved in a Pilot show of News Discussion for the younger generation on one of the channels)

However I am not clear about your point about the enumeration of regional Killings. Should I give up on my culture and my region because they have killed so many people? Or is it even more important to engage myself in questionning the root causes of the ever exploding violence?

#13 Hamidm

Thank you for the manichean viewpoint, I think we needed some lightning up. Very well said I must say. :)

Syed Ali:

I will once more air my argument that the ONLY thing wrong with the east or Muslim countries is they don`t have independent institutions. Institutions are the bedrock for society to establish a foothold. In it`s absence, there is insecurity and fear. Thus even we end up being acceptably receptive to those tragedies aired on the media of those societies that have foundations. Our own tragedies are deemed less significant because we do not have anywhere to turn to in order to overcome the causes of the tragedy.

More and more I feel this `us and them` argument is utter krap. A Pakistani army man once told me that if Pakistan had the power, it would totally fuk up Afghanistan like no one has tried to do so before. The only problem is Pakistan does not have the power. In Muslim countres, western manipulation and domination should be of secondary concern than to how the societies are internally screwed up. I bet Muslims have massacared ten times as many fellow Muslims as any `western` society may have done so.

first of all, whoever lectured you on a multicultural society not being able to be racist is wrong. . .one can be racist in a multicultural society. . and one is.

but to answer your question, no, not all of us expatriates/immigrants have bought into the orientalist ideology such as that may be, but please be so good as to not accuse all of us expatriates/immigrants of contributing to `racist` ideologies with ignorant generalizations. the criticisms we have of our parts of the world are quite specific, and while we would like to present a wholesome beautiful picture of our countries to `the west`. . .we`re certainly not going to generalize about something as horrible as the hudood ordinance, and how women have suffered from that.
you seem to suggest that expatriates/immigrants buy into orientalist or racist ideology, but what you do not realize is that some of us carry racist ideologies with us upon emigrating. . .and not all of those can be blamed on the west. i do not think that the bigotry some of us feel towards arabs for example, or our notions of blackness being the lowest of the low, are thanks to the western hemisphere.

and with all due respect, it is not for you to tell us whether we have the right to bash issues that have significance in the deeper scheme of things or not. what are these issues that you are referring to? everyone has a right to an opinion, no matter how fascistic it sounds. all we can do is try to get through to them, and back up what we say.

i have no doubt that racism is well and alive in the media. . in hollywood, in many parts of america. we`ve seen shades of that ever since rudy valentino came out with `the sheik`. am not denying that. i just feel uncomfortable about the generalization about expatriates making ignorant generalizations. that`s quite an ignorant generalization in and of itself.

hamidm: *grin*

......... this multiculturalism stuff is for the birds - there is the right way, and then there is the wrong way ............ and you don`t have to be a genius to figure out which is which .......... the right way works, and the wrong way doesn`t ............ western civilization works, the rest sucks ........ most chinese businessmen in addition, to the hu`s and the peng`s, also have western names like timothy and thompson and the head-waggers in bangalore always answer, `` hello this is shane, how may i help you`` never ``this is vijaygranpatniviramtiva!``.............. the only person who is not willing to change is abdul, and so abdul remains mired in misery and as he gets more miserable he gets more obdurate and finally becomes abdullah !................

have a nice day,

harry

``the sure sign of a second-rate mind launching a third-rate defense of a bad idea.``

I think this line killed off any potential interest I had in your viewpoint. You obviously belong to that group of people who have a Numb Superiority complex to any other view than yours. Your rating of my mind and my argument just goes on to show the impatience you have when hearing other people`s perspective. I am a believer that all minds and as you conveiniently rate them according to your hierarchy based outlook should be given a chance. That is what Chowk is famous for, it allows us , and i quote , Second Rated Minds to put up a Third Rated defense of a bad idea, It allows us to put up a question which is then countered or confirmed by all types of minds, and thus we all learn and grow from our perspective postion. If you feel that you have nothing constructive to add to the argument then leave us second rated minds alone and stay in the bourgeosie world that your have built for yourself and where you can extort and announce to everyone who is listening the superiority of your intellect and the First Rated mind that you possess. Actions Sir are what makes history, assasination and indictments are forgotten. If you were to put up a First Rated argument against my position, I would appreciate it, otherwise if all you want to achieve by these interactions are boost for your overinflated ego then you are obviously at the wrong Interacts. Good day