Will Persecuting Hashmi Help?

#22 by mohar11 on December 8, 2003 8:04am PT

Actually, Mush is a little wiser after having tried so hard and failed.....he may be seeing some sense in the stupidity of all this belligerent posturing that he has been doing

``they are becoming honest out of shear desperation, and it is good.``(jay)

or it could be a honest shear caused by sheer desperation -- and it is not good..

jay,

.......... have you ever thought of sending a contribution to dawn - i think you owe them ........

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#18 jay



Why dont you cut and paste from any of your posts... it will save you some time as you repeat yourself in every post.

#15 by wajahat on December 8, 2003 7:01am PT
//... I am not a Musharraf lover, read my post #3 on that regards, I feel that the issues here are far deeper and critical...//

OK - I don`t see what ``deeper`` and ``critical`` wisdom you came up with in your post#3. Anycase - I don`t think you need to really dig deeper to understand paki dictators like Musharraf and how they operate and what they believe. It is very simple, really.

You went a little berserk, unnecessarily, about my ``Fighting Hindoos`` statement. For Musharraf, fighting Indians(who are always equated to Hindoos, in paki parlance - hence my statement) or at least, giving an impression that he is doing so, is very importtant. That is his raison-d’être. That`s all he has done all his life. Now - for him to declare an unilateral ceasefire is very big deal, IMHO. THis is a very big climb down for the ``butcher`` of kargil.

So is the decision to pull down replica of Gauri , which means that finally Mushy is admitting that he can`t fight Indians any more. He wants Peace with India(=Hindoos) which, in Paki Army way of thinking, is worse than death. It is against their ideology , it is against all that they stand for and worked for.

You call me prejudiced, but I disagree. I think this is the truth.

#15 by wajahat on December 8, 2003 7:01am PT
//... I am not a Musharraf lover, read my post #3 on that regards, I feel that the issues here are far deeper and critical...//

OK - I don`t see what ``deeper`` and ``critical`` wisdom you came up with in your post#3. Anycase - I don`t think you need to really dig deeper to understand paki dictators like Musharraf and how they operate and what they believe. It is very simple, really.

You went a little berserk, unnecessarily, about my ``Fighting Hindoos`` statement. For Musharraf, fighting Indians(who are always equated to Hindoos, in paki parlance - hence my statement) or at least, giving an impression that he is doing so, is very importtant. That is his raison-d’être. That`s all he has done all his life. Now - for him to declare an unilateral ceasefire is very big deal, IMHO. THis is a very big climb down for the ``butcher`` of kargil.

So is the decision to pull down replica of Gauri , which means that finally Mushy is admitting that he can`t fight Indians any more. He wants Peace with India(=Hindoos) which, in Paki Army way of thinking, is worse than death. It is against their ideology , it is against all that they stand for and worked for.

You call me prejudiced, but I disagree. I think this is the truth.

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lol nice choice of quotes, but I believe that`s every Pakistani leaders swan song as a way of getting aid...

I don`t agree with the New York Times article in it`s entirety but one comment made in it struck me as something which saddened me ..

Farouk Adam Khan had been chief prosecutor during the initial period of crusading. One Sunday night, I found him in his law office, sitting under the dim light of a single desk lamp. ``Pervez Musharraf had a great opportunity,`` he said, ``but he lost it in the pursuit of power.``


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All i can think of is et to Mush?

From Jang of today, opinion piece by a journalist

Then there is another burden of history. For the past 40 years our uniformed decision makers have been fed nothing but anti-India rations. For the past quarter-century our civil society is being indoctrinated to equate Pakistan with Islam, India with Hindus both in tandem with ``Hindus being eternal enemies of Islam``.

Our elementary and secondary school curriculum continues to be full of ‘hate literature’ (my 9-year-old son has a problem comprehending that an Indian can also be a Muslim). Pakistani students are still being taught that ``Hindus worship in temples which are narrow and dark places, where they worship idols. Only one person can enter the temple at a time. In mosques, on the other hand, all Muslims can say their prayers together`` and that ``the religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things. Hindus, who have been opportunist, cooperated with the English.`` The post-1979 curriculum is also inundated with the concepts of ‘Jihad’ and ‘Shahadat’ (notions that are hard to find in the pre-1979 curricula).

WHAT IS HAPPENING TO PAKISTANIS,

After more tha 4 years of denying the legality of honour killing in pakistan, always trying to dismiss it as some tribal tradition, at last YLH has come out with the truth, in pakistan murder is not a crime against state, it is an act under the tort laws, to be settled by the parties. If some is killed, and no one complains, that is the end of story, as it happened with samia sarwar. At last pakistanis are accepting the reality of pakistan, or may be finally giving up, that I have been harping on this for so long.

Below is yet another milestone article from jang, where a well known write has accepted the reality of k for kafir education. This is the second pakistani after hoodboy to write about the k for kafir education. At last I can understand the utterences of tahmed against me, the posts of YLH, and once again I look forward to a denial from the pakistanis. This time I am sure tahmed will say that it is from the rural areas, the madrassas that have k for kafir education, take it from me , the article below is from a city man.

Desperation

Pakistanis have removed the ghouri missiles from the street intersections, unilateral cease fire, YLH accepting the legalisation of honour killing, yet another pakistani writing about the k for kafir education, if this is the outcome of desperation and hopelessness that has enveloped pakistan, then there is hope for peace. May be the work of the indians in every fora to bash the pakistanis is at last delevering the peace dividends. This is good for the world, just for being a pakistani is a reason enough to bash, the good old english sport should be at the commonwealth games in india in 2008. Give nothing to pakistanis, just nothing and that should be the indian motto at every interaction with the pakistanis, especially on chowk , and look at the results, they are becoming honest out of shear desperation, and it is good. There is at last hope for pakistan.

mohar 11

Your post is just prejudiced babblings. Your statement about fighting Hindoos is simplistic, childish and immature.

Although I am not a Musharraf lover, read my post #3 on that regards, I feel that the issues here are far deeper and critical than your limited perception has allowed you to envision. You might be on the wrong board with your ``Fighting Hindoos`` mentality. Lets not turn this into a pissing contest.

the secret of military rule is: apres moi, le deluge.

Critisizing army in Pakistan seems to be a bigger crime than murder and rape. Mr. Javed had been charged with murder and rape but never investigated for these crimes. The message the ruling party has always sent it that you can be the scum of the earth, but it is ok as long as you are with us. And army has been a ruling party for a long time. Musharraf is no exception. Remember what happended in Ayub and Zia time.

Pakistan Is ...
By BARRY BEARAK

Published: December 7, 2003

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/07/magazine/07PAKISTAN.html?pagewanted=all&position=

Though the British are long gone, the Pakistanis themselves remain colonized by privation. About two-thirds of the population survives on less than $2 a day. Nearly two of every five children are undernourished. Only 44 percent of all adults can read (only 29 percent of the women). The mosques, rather than the government, provide what frayed social safety net there is. Perhaps that is because Pakistan is habitually broke. Barely 1 percent of the population pays income tax. More than half of the central budget goes toward the military and repayment of the national debt.

Politically, Pakistan has been reliably unsteady, with democracy only a sporadic presence. The military has controlled the country for about half its 56 years. No elected government has ever completed a full term, and even when one is in place, it stays there only at the pleasure of the generals. The army -- some 500,000 strong -- is commonly thought to be Pakistan`s elite institution. The military doesn`t just dominate civilian affairs; its various ``welfare trusts`` are among the nation`s largest industrial conglomerates. The Fauji Foundation, linked to the army, has substantial ventures in gas fields, sugar mills, a fertilizer plant, an oil terminal and an overseas employment service. Its corn flakes and other breakfast cereals control 80 percent of the market. Profits supply ex-servicemen and their families the quality schools and health care that most Pakistanis so badly lack.

The great murkiness of Pakistan is largely the fault of this formidable army and the skulking I.S.I., which have pursued furtive alliances with many of the nation`s most violent Islamic extremists. For more than a decade, the military has trained and financed civilian jihadis who cross into the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir to create havoc. This guerrilla combat was once an entirely indigenous Kashmiri rebellion against New Delhi, but the Pakistanis quickly hijacked it. Radical groups supplied much of the manpower, often enlisting students eager to enter paradise through the golden door of a martyr`s death.

The main grievance was the Legal Framework Order -- the L.F.O. -- Musharraf`s unilateral redrawing of the Constitution. He has bestowed upon himself the power to appoint Supreme Court justices and military chiefs, dissolve the Parliament and fire the prime minister. In other words, officials -- whether elected or otherwise -- were free to perform their duties so long as the general did not disapprove of how they did it.

I spent time with Musharraf during these early days. He is a forceful man who expresses himself with such common sense and seeming candor that it is hard to imagine a word being untrue. He favors declarations like ``It`s high time we face facts!`` And yet for most Pakistanis, the general has been a disappointment. Anticorruption campaigns gave way, once again, to political vendettas. Farouk Adam Khan had been chief prosecutor during the initial period of crusading. One Sunday night, I found him in his law office, sitting under the dim light of a single desk lamp. ``Pervez Musharraf had a great opportunity,`` he said, ``but he lost it in the pursuit of power.``

Neither Benazir Bhutto nor Sharif could have run again anyway. Musharraf had installed new rules for public office. Some were laudable, like reserving a quota of seats in Parliament for women. Others were quirky, moralistic or simply cunning. A college degree was required, disqualifying all but perhaps 4 percent of the population. Accused bank defaulters also could not run, nor could their relatives or business associates.

Yet however unusual these rules, it was their selective application that was most disturbing. In a detailed criticism of the election, observers from the European Union said the inconsistency was the ``result of a government strategy, in certain cases through the enforcement of person-specific provisions.`` Politicians allying themselves with Musharraf were often given ways around legal obstacles, the report noted. A few of the more ambitiously recruited were then rewarded with posts in the cabinet.

Conspiracy theorists and others reacted to the M.M.A.`s election success with a frenzy of suspicion. They began to call the coalition the Military-Mullah Alliance, speculating that the wily Musharraf had backed the religious parties to scare the gullible Americans into meting out more aid. (``The mullahs are coming! The mullahs are coming!``) To them, it seemed the M.M.A. had received an unfair leg up. Degrees from madrasas (religious schools) had been accepted to fulfill the educational requirement for candidates. On the ballots themselves, where each party was denoted by an emblem, the M.M.A. was granted the symbol of a book. In a mostly illiterate country, some people were then easily persuaded that their choice was to vote for or against the Holy Koran.

Parents want their kids in school. If there were teachers, there would be students. But Pakistan`s education budget as a percentage of gross domestic product is puny, according to a Unesco estimate, smaller than most of the Muslim world, smaller even than most of sub-Saharan Africa. And of those teachers who are paid, many simply fail to show up, relying on an inept bureaucracy to ignore their truancy. In a place called Masterano Kallai, I witnessed the reanimation of a ghost school. Some of the village`s few literate men had volunteered to teach. Rooms were swept free of fodder and dung. A small blackboard was hung from a nail to the cement wall. More than 100 children arrived in the afternoon, some of them barefoot, many coming after a morning of hard lifting at a nearby brick kiln.