Questions About Thursday’s Attack

the targetting of karachi and turning into an erstwhile industrial estate to a terrorism playground is that, no other city in the world has experienced this gruesome state of affairs. this also entails the fact that karachi or pakistan carries some unrevealed truth which could be looked up at as honour and envy for others.

some value of importance is lingering still, the diamond hasn`t lost its shine yet, as we see robbers clobbering around and smoking with smoking guns.

lets wait and c, if the curtain is raised before the public is gone away along with prestige.

hahah zaraJ -- youre cluelessness could be excused if it werent for the rudeness that came with it -- i suggest u look up t he dictionary and move beyond the literal definition of forum -- yes actually can have a forum in print -- its called the letters section -- a person writes a letter which can spark off a debate and others can respond -- that qualifies as a forum -- obviously that is beyond your rather infantile comprehension and disposition -- just so that u dont make an ass of yourself again zahra, for a print journalist a forum of discussion would be the letters to the editor page, the op-ed page and so on while for an tv j ournalist a forum would be something like a call-in show -- as for the rest of your drivel i rather ignore it than to stoop to your childish level

wonder what the paki-bashers will say about this:

BJP stands by Modi

NEW DELHI, June 20: India`s opposition Hindu nationalists on Sunday shot down renewed calls to dismiss Gujarat`s hardline leader, who is accused of abetting anti-Muslim violence in the western state.

``There is no proposal to change the leadership of Gujarat at this juncture,`` Venkaiah Naidu, president of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), told reporters after a meeting of top party leaders in New Delhi.

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi had come under fresh scrutiny after police said they gunned down four Muslims, including a 19-year-old woman, last Tuesday because they allegedly plotted to assassinate the state leader.

India`s ruling Congress party has suggested that the shootout was a set-up to build sympathy for Modi and demanded an impartial probe. Former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, breaking with his party`s longstanding backing of Modi, said last week that a BJP national meeting set to start on Tuesday in Mumbai would consider replacing the Gujarat leader.

Vajpayee also said for the first time that anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat, which left 2,000 people dead in 2002, contributed to the BJP`s upset election defeat in April-May elections.

But Vajpayee`s remarks led hardliners to rally around Modi, who had been facing calls for his resignation even from some BJP lawmakers in Gujarat. Vajpayee took part in Sunday`s BJP meeting, which was seen as an attempt to clear up intra-party disputes instead of airing them publicly at the Mumbai convention. -AFP

Omar: How can you have a forum discussion in print ? The more you talk the more you expose your ignorance. Which world are you living in? Probably, you should learn to develop yourself outside of D.a.w.n. On the flip side, I do not blame you for your ignorance since that`s the hallmark of your surroundings. Since I have very little interest in interacting with immature ignorants, I would leave you with a final thought for your personal growth and development. Do look up the difference between ``interaction`` and ``outbursts.`` Apparently, you are way too naive to comprehend that. Oh, you can consult online webster for that. No need to rush to your local bookstore to get a thesaurus. Ok. Keep on un.educating your readership. Best Wishes.

ballu jee:``I would suggest that you stop playing around with the pak-bashing thingy- and get down to some real solid journalism. Try to gather evidences, build up stories, tail the military elites, expose them, raise the voice of the opressed, write about the `root causes` of killings in karachi`` -- thanks for the solid advice ballu jee -- i have jotted all this down and we will get working on it pronto!

dost sahib -- i am talking of a forum in print not online -- 95 per cent of dawn`s letters are rejected because of reasons of space -- im sure the rejection figures at the indian express of the time of india is even higher since they publish fewer letters and probably get more than say dawn -- that doesnt mean that the forum isnt free dost sahib -- where u said: ``If I feel the need to write to your newspaper again, I would still do it the old fashion way and would want it to be published only if it meets your paper`s selection criteria. Still, thanks for the offer of help.`` -- dost sahib who suggested to u not to go about the traditional way -- and i never said i would be doing u or anyone else any favours -- but there is a difference in the editor`s secy downloading 200-300 letters and in me giving one to him directly -- that way it wont get lost in the flood of mail -- thats what i was suggesting dost sahib --

zahraJ -- i am talking about a forum for discussion IN PRINT -- and thanks for going to the trouble of posting the definition of forum -- i think i already knew much of it

Omar sahib:
I never said that Dawn is unique among newspapers in not being a free forum for discussion - though more and more newspapers now have interactive discussion forums in their online editions. When you say that 95% of the letters to the newspaper are rejected, you are basically agreeing with me.
If I feel the need to write to your newspaper again, I would still do it the old fashion way and would want it to be published only if it meets your paper`s selection criteria. Still, thanks for the offer of help.

Omar: For your education, the definition of a forum and an example is provided.
Forum: 1 a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper) of open discussion or expression of ideas 2 : a judicial body or assembly : COURT 3 a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities. Source: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=FORUM
I do not have the luxury of time to educate you on the essence of ``Discussion`` and ``Open.`` Please help yourself. Checkout the following newspaper`s online edition to learn more about ``online forums.``
- NY Times

Good Luck!

#48 by omar_r_quraishi on June 17, 2004 5:27am PT

I would suggest that you stop playing around with the pak-bashing thingy- and get down to some real solid journalism. Try to gather evidences, build up stories, tail the military elites, expose them, raise the voice of the opressed, write about the `root causes` of killings in karachi

---

and avoid the stereotypes in order to sell your story!!

dost saheb -- even on chowk the editors do have some discretion, or dont they ? we get 200-300 letters every day and can print only 15 at most -- so u do the math dost jee -- next time email them to me directly and ill see if they can be printed --

nb - i know its back in business duh -- but it did go bust because the vajpayee govt, esp mr fernandes, ordered the CBI to go after it --

dost sahib -- she asked whether we had a forum for our paper and that is the forum -- all forums are moderated in varying degrees -- besides how else is a print newspaper supposed to have a `free` forum -- and if u read the letters pages of most english papers, they are quite `free` in their criticism -- the only difference i see between chowk and those columns is that chowk has no problem with personal attacks -- i am not sure if that kind of forum can be called `free` in the true sense of the world -- there has to be some responsibility with what u post which is why i post with my full name here and my profession and even emails are in the public realm -- now i dont see most people doing that on chowk and hiding behind their nicks -- in any newspaper their submission would not even be considered unless they gave their full name and address and contact number -- if u r contending that this kind of forum has a validity equal to that of in a newspaper then the same rules should apply -- besides, could u tell me if any indian newspaper offers the kind of `free` forum that you are talking about dost sahib?

DT EDITORIAL: The diabolical nexus

This newspaper has reported in its June 17 issue that the maulvi of a mosque in Green Town, a locality in Lahore, sexually assaulted a six-year-old boy Talha. As generally happens in such cases, the boy was sent to the mosque by his parents to learn the Holy Quran. The news makes clear that while the police has apprehended the maulvi, the parents of the unfortunate victim are facing pressure from some religious outfits to drop the case and not press charges. We are not surprised either by the incident or the fact that some religious groups should deem fit to come out in support of a criminal. Such sorts are notorious for committing acts of buggery to a point where bawdy jokes about them are quite common. Similarly, to think that such groups or personages are inclined to act more morally than us mortals is laughable.

So why should we be writing about it if we are not surprised by the incident and its aftermath? Clearly, just because something wrong happens frequently does not make it right. It is the responsibility of the state and society to ensure that non-consensual sex (as opposed to consensual sex) and paedophilia must be treated as crimes and their perpetrators punished. So if there is evidence against this fellow, he must get what he deserves under the law. It is ridiculous that in a country where consensual sex is treated as a crime because it is deemed a sin or where two consenting adults cannot even marry each other without being killed or arrested, religious groups should come out in support of a paedophile.

But there are a few other aspects of this problem also. Does the government have any data on the number of mosques in various cities and across the country? The answer is no. There are guesstimates but no real verifiable data. Why? Because mosque-building remains an unregulated business. We know how the element of sanctity linked with the mosque is utilised by charlatans to grab land and how it is important for ‘graduates’ of madrassahs to find mosques because they are otherwise unemployable. The problem is that just like the mosques are unregulated, so the government is unaware of who occupies them and to what purpose. Police officers in Karachi know that religious gangs fight over possession of mosques and use these places to brainwash people, generate funds and hide terrorists, and even to make illegal commercial use of them.

There is a diabolical nexus among these elements: the fundamentalist preaching madrassah and sectarian mosque, and other acts of bigotry and terrorism. In fact, what the maulvi has done in Green Town is a criminal act at the low end of this murky spectrum. Can something be done?

Yes. Given clear evidence that many mosques and madrassahs are involved in sectarian and other terrorism, the state needs to firmly decide to regulate their affairs. It must legislate to decide the optimum number of mosques required for purely religious purposes determined by the population of a locality, acceptable noise and congestion levels, and the capacity of each mosque. Mosque-building must be regulated and no one should be allowed to construct a mosque anywhere he likes. Sectarian sermons should be declared a crime. The sub-literature in Islam is overflowing with sectarianism. It is the modern state’s responsibility to keep the lid firmly on it. The state must ensure that all mosques are listed with the religious ministry and all khateebs are vetted by the ministry. Religious circles of course are likely to fall, ironically, on the liberal argument and say it is not the state’s responsibility to regulate religion. True, but only if it can be proved that religion is not translating itself into societal strife and violence. The evidence here is that it is. It then becomes the responsibility of the state to secure the life and property of its citizens and ensure that no harm comes to them on the basis of their beliefs.

But none of this can happen if the state has someone like Ijaz-ul Haq manning the religious ministry and writing op-eds in newspapers that clearly show where his bias resides. A good step taken by the government is to nominate enlightened members to the Council of Islamic Ideology, a body that had almost become comic because it was stuffed previously by literalists. Now the government needs to do the same with the religious ministry. *

No reply to my questions on the attempt to kill Sonu Nigam. Hmm.

omar saheb:
``zahraJ -- we have a discussion forum in dawn - its called teh letters to the editors page``

With due respect, there is a difference between a free forum and ``the letters to the editors`` page of a newspaper, where everything is at the discretion of the editor. For example, I sent letters to Dawn 2-3 times and they were never published [Quite possibly, they did not meet your newspaper`s criteria for publication and I have no complaints, just pointing out the difference!].

Oomar, in case you haven`t noticed, tehelka is back in business. It coudln`t be kept out of business. Just thought I`d update you, though it has been some months.
You`re welcome.
The Indian Army only does army-stuff, they don`t rule the country and censor newspapers, so there isn`t all that much to expose with them.
How do you know you`re sensible? Bin Laden probably thinks he`s sensible too.

zahraJ -- we have a discussion forum in dawn - its called teh letters to the editors page -- as for imposing any newspaper as a holy book, open your eyes zahraJ and see that most people tend to quote dawn all the time, so if you have such a problem tell them the same thing too -- besides, the paki-bashers quote their choicy newspapers all the time -- i never see u saying anything to them -- ``we`` -- im not sure if i use it a lot and if i do im talking about sensible people and with reference to chowk prob sensible pakistanis and i suppose this doesnt include u zahraJ :)

zahraJ : ``You CAN only represent yourself. You are also trying to build an India vs. Pakistan thing on Chowk. Whenever you feel insecure, you run to hide behind Dawn. Whenever that is brought up, you start whining about getting personal. I sense some insecurity here. Whatever. I am least interested in your tactics to gain attention, but your desperation is very obvious. I do not read Dawn. Apparently, quite a few on Chowk are or have been on Dawn`s payroll and you want to remind them more than they want to acknowledge. It certainly highlights your professionalism! Please continue setting a superb example. Lastly, I really like Garfield. In fact, I love Garfield. But there should be some difference between ``ferocious`` little cats and human beings. You missed the ``unspelled out`` point again. That`s fine. I understand your constant need to secure attention. Probably, Chowk`s Admin should provide you with your own corner on Chowk and you will be in peace.

wake up zahra -- the india vs pakistan thing existed long before on chowk before i arrived and its exacerbated (hope u know what that means) by the paki-bashers here -- as for being on dawn`s ``payroll`` and also being on chowk, well guess what missy its a bit logical since this is a site apparently devoted to writing and journalism has some link with writing and dawn is a newspaper -- so there r bound to be people on dawn`s ``payroll`` who also might come on chowk -- i am in peace zahraJ trust me, seems your obviously not -- and whether u read a certain newspaper or dont thats yoru choice -- i dont ever advocating on this site or any other forum that people read dawn -- u need to chill zahraJ perhaps there is time for redemption (hope u know what that means) zahra -- my ``constant need to secure attention``, zahraJ, can easily be defeated by the way if u choose to not respond to me :) -- and by the way seriously open your eyes a bit and see what some of the other interactios -- paki-bashers et al -- do here --

ballu jee: ``I am asking you to talk about YOURSELF because I have littel information about what the journalists are doing to expose the Pakistani police and military- or may be there is nothing to expose` since these two institutions are the cleanest and the sniffing journalist does not know where his snout is leading him to....................!! `` -- pakistani newspapera are littered withr eports against the police -- just log on to any site -- and by the way tell me something -- has the indian media done anything to expose the military -- oh now i remember tehelka did that i think and they were driven out of business by the former govt -- isnt that right ballu jee

Reg- omar_r_quraishi

In case you missed it!!

-taking off from your point i would like to know the perception of the police in india and instances of police brutality in india against minorities, women, dalits etc --

You mis-understand! I am not into the comparison game- it is just that the atrocities by Indian police is well documented by Indian media and TV- infact the TV is also doing a very good job of exposing the police excesses in India- the communal face of Indian police in Gujrat and elsewhere is pathetically clear.

I am asking you to talk about YOURSELF because I have littel information about what the journalists are doing to expose the Pakistani police and military- or may be there is nothing to expose` since these two institutions are the cleanest and the sniffing journalist does not know where his snout is leading him to....................!!