Musharraf’s Radical Kashmir Proposals

dost-mittar #267
As far as I understand, Harijan is considered semi-perjorative and patronizing (many Dalits consider Gandhiji to have been unacceptably paternalistic and patronizing). Its successor term `Scheduled Caste` has also acquired a semi-perjorative ring to it. Dalit appears to be sufficiently respectful and acceptable as it is a `self-referred` term.

The sooner these terms are out of usage, the better.

sadna:
No harm in using terms like `bhangi, choorha``, etc. while talking about the past, just as there is no harm in saying `negro` when talking about the past. After all, the mohalla where Gandhiji lived in Delhi was called Bhangi colony before it was called Harijan colongy. BTW is harijan still an acceptable term or one must use dalit these days?

dalit:
``Dost-mittar, All who responded to my posts here have heard about the book. You or anybody else have not refuted a single word that I posted here!``

How could they since they all said they haven`t seen or read the book? Until someone else gets interested in dead books, you will remain the unchallenged expert.

Just a comment: `Bhangi` has not been acceptable usage for decades (at least where I come from) and it is shocking to see it used here. I doubt anyone here would dare go up to a state`s CM and call him/her a `bhangi`. Here`s hoping Indians succeed in altogether avoiding using this term even while making a point. In Kerala usage of certain community names is banned by law.

As for Mushy`s Kashmir proposals - he made them to get the religious parties from tearing his uniform to pieces. The guy does not have to take off his clothes now. He is not the first Pakistani leader to wriggle out of his domestic compulsions by bringing up Kashmir. Ayub Khan even went to war with India to quieten the protests against his policies including partyless `basic democracy`.

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Ref Dalit #260

[In fact, Dalit activists across India attest that violence against Dalits is not dissipating but rather increasing. Between 1994 and 1996 there were a total of 98,349 cases of atrocities against Dalits registered with the police nation-wide (Narula: 1999). Due to the continued oppression of Dalits and the climate of fear they live in it is obvious that this is the mere tip of the iceberg. As of January 1995 more deaths had been reported as a result of the caste conflict in Bihar than in the 6 years of the Kashmiri war . These statistics give some indication to the scale of the problem.]

Shouldn`t Pakistan then be focused on liberating Bihar from Indian rule rather than Kashmir? Let me give you a clue: there will be NO resistance whatsoever from India if you guys want to liberate Bihar. You can have all of Bihar provided you take Lalloo Prasad Yadav and Robbery Devi as part of the deal. A further incentive would be the ability to resettle the stranded ``Biharis`` in Bangladesh in their native land. That would be one less stick for Hindus to beat you with.

What do you say, we got a deal?

Ref Dalit #260

[Ref:
Professor L. Jawaharnesan, Western Michigan University
¡§In land ownership figures, of the total 29 percent marginal land area in the country, Dalits own only 12 percent as against 80 percent by non-Dalits. In the medium category, of the total area of 51 percent, Dalits own 7 percent as against 82 percent owned by the non-Dalits. In the large area land category, of the total 20 percent, Dalits own only 4 percent while the non-Dalits possess 86 percent of it¡¨, ibid.]

However, Dalits have earned all the Nobel Prizes in Medicine from 1960 onwards, after being awarded reserved seats in medical colleges since 1950.

Dalit:

You`re one funny dude... Have fun quoting from some ``dead`` scriptures and ``human rights reports``.. Maybe get some extra funds....

:-)

Ref friend #256

[``Manusmiriti``

This book that our dear Neighbours are so fond of quoting, where do I get it? I do not know of any shop in Delhi that has it for sale.. Nor did I see it in Delhi public library.. Has anyone on this board ever seen it with their own eyes...

this book must have existed sometime in history.. We all heard about it from missionaries and mullahs quoting it. Never heard about it from pandits and priests in the temple... ]

You might want to obtain the Arabic translation of it. It goes under the name of Koran.

It is not so much a translation as a transliteration. Dalits are referred to as kaffirs and dhimmies.

There is a book there dealing with the rights of women. It is called The Cow. I guess they could find no other milch animals.

In it, such rights of women are enumerated as not being buried alive upon birth, being stoned to death for traveling without a mehram, the right to have four male witnesses present during rape, etc.

#258 Dost-mittar, All who responded to my posts here have heard about the book. You or anybody else have not refuted a single word that I posted here!
#253 masanamuthu
You are moving up the ladder. Congrets.You are now 1 1/2 born.

Read on...

In modern India, caste Hindus are generally free to choose their occupation, however Dalits are generally still confined to the occupations traditionally assigned to them. Over time, Dalits have largely replaced the position of Shudras as labourers in India, with 75% working as agricultural labourers as opposed to 60% of the general population . Despite making up the backbone of the rural workforce, Dalits rarely work for themselves ¡V usually they work as farm labourers for caste Hindus , many of them born into debt bondage and forced to work without pay their whole lives.


In fact, Dalit activists across India attest that violence against Dalits is not dissipating but rather increasing. Between 1994 and 1996 there were a total of 98,349 cases of atrocities against Dalits registered with the police nation-wide (Narula: 1999). Due to the continued oppression of Dalits and the climate of fear they live in it is obvious that this is the mere tip of the iceberg. As of January 1995 more deaths had been reported as a result of the caste conflict in Bihar than in the 6 years of the Kashmiri war . These statistics give some indication to the scale of the problem.

Manifestations of Caste

The manifestations can be divided into two categories:
(1) the discrimination and exclusion faced by Dalits as a result of thousands of years of implementation of the caste system; and
(2) the violent reprisals to attempts to implement legal rights and reform the caste system.

(1) Discrimination and Exclusion

Socio-Cultural Examples
„X Dalits are frequently prevented from marrying non-Dalits. This manifestation reappears in every society connected to Hinduism, including diaspora communities outside south Asia, and even among the Sri Lankan Buddhist population
„X In rural areas, Dalits still largely live in separate communities and are prevented from living in caste communities.
„X In rural areas, Dalits are still prevented from using public water supplies, temples and schools.
„X Dalits are prevented from using the same plates, cups or utensils as caste Hindus, eg. the two-tumbler system is still in use in many tea stalls (Dalits must not use the cups used by caste Hindus and must wash their own cups) and Dalit school children must fetch their own plates to receive lunch.

Economic Examples
„X Dalits are restricted by occupation to take on the most menial, disgusting and humiliating work. These occupations have been handed down through generations, and, while in many cases they are not physically forced to continue this work, neither do they have access to any other means to earn a living so must continue this work. Such occupations include working in sewers, cleaning toilets, carrying dead bodies, cremation and burial, and handling blood or animal hides.
„X Dalits make up the majority of agricultural labourers. Low pay, difficult conditions and lack of alternatives often combine with debt burdens to landlords, making their conditions both pathetic and inescapable.
„X Almost all of the bonded labourers in India and Pakistan are Dalits, including many children working in brick kilns, for example.
„X Despite reservations in the civil service in India (15% of places are reserved for Dalits), many places remain unfilled as sufficient numbers of Dalits have not reached the required educational standard. With the massive neo-liberal program of the Indian government to privatise public services and open markets to foreign private investment, even these positions are disappearing. Dalits are notably absent, for example, from the booming information technology sector in India.
„X According to all economic indicators, Dalits are at the bottom. Of particular note is the ¡¥literacy gap¡¦, which has remained unchanged in India over the last 50 years, despite increasing proportions of the populations gaining education; similarly the low caste tea plantation workers of Indian Tamil origin in central Sri Lanka have only around 60% literacy in a country where the national figure is over 90%.

(2) Reprisals
Dalits who actually claim land that has been awarded them by the state; Dalits who take up positions reserved for them in the local government (panchayat) system; Dalit students who rise to representative positions in the student body; Dalits who touch the food or utensils of caste Hindus; Dalits who enter temples or use public water supplies dominated by caste Hindus; Dalits who succeed in sporting events; Dalits who escape from bonded labour; Dalits who organise demonstrations against the deprivation of their rights; Dalits who marry or seek to marry caste Hindus; Dalits who refuse to do their obliged, unpaid, polluting occupations ¡V are all frequently subject to reprisals by caste Hindus. Forms of reprisals include :
„X Lynching, burning and public hanging
„X Torture by police
„X Beatings, Rape and Murder with impunity
„X Being forced to eat human faeces or drink human urine
„X Being paraded naked through the street
„X Being called degrading names
„X Economic and social boycotts
„X Destruction of houses, property and means of livelihood

Perhaps most important to note is the role of the police in maintaining the vast gap between Dalits and caste Hindus. Regardless of income, high caste means high social status and police consistently show horrendous bias towards upper caste residents of local communities. This means that if a dispute emerges where Dalits are trying to claim their legal rights, it is the Dalits who will be arrested and frequently tortured; if caste Hindus commit a crime against a Dalit, they will not be seriously prosecuted; and if a crime is committed and no culprit found, a Dalit will often be arrested randomly and tortured into a confession of guilt so that the police can wrap up the case. The corruption of the police along caste lines and the rampant use of torture form a major impediment to the implementation of measures for Dalit equality.

Ref:
Professor L. Jawaharnesan, Western Michigan University
¡§In land ownership figures, of the total 29 percent marginal land area in the country, Dalits own only 12 percent as against 80 percent by non-Dalits. In the medium category, of the total area of 51 percent, Dalits own 7 percent as against 82 percent owned by the non-Dalits. In the large area land category, of the total 20 percent, Dalits own only 4 percent while the non-Dalits possess 86 percent of it¡¨, ibid.
The Government of India defines ¡§Atrocity¡¨ as an offence committed by a person who is not a member of a Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe, against a member of these groups. The offences listed number 15 and range from ¡§acts with intent to cause injury¡¨ to corrupting or fowling ¡§the water of any spring, reservoir or nay other source¡¨ used by Dalits or Adivasis (Government of India, 1989)
S. Narula, Broken People, Human Rights Watch, 1999
S. Bayly (2001) Caste, Society and Politics in India from the 18th Century to the modern age (Cambridge University Press: Cambridge)
A Stevens, Trajectories of Caste Conflict in India: accounting for violence against India¡¦s Untouchables, 2002
See the publication ¡¥Caste is not a thing of the past¡¦ for concrete examples of these forms of reprisals, which took place between July and December 2002.

It seems that the few remaining Pakistanis on this board have absolutely no interest in discussing Musharraf`s radical proposals to resolve masla-e-Kashmir. Why should they, when it’s so much easier and more satisfying to deliver pompous sermons on the horrific and inhuman caste oppression institutionalized in Indian society – for which grim documentation has been provided by extracts from the Manusmriti – and perpetuated by the BJP/VHP/RSS/SP/JS?

Dost-mittar #197, #239, #251, #258

To the extent that you are trying to undo the effects of ‘k for kafir’ education, those posts are an exercise in futility.

Re canonical status or otherwise of Manusmriti, Madhu Kishwar has written a very interesting article entitled From Manusmriti to Madhusmriti: Flagellating a Mythical Enemy.

This article will, sadly, bring no comfort to Dalit Pakistanis. On the other hand, we know that Madhu Kishwar is a hidebound reactionary anti-progressive anti-feminist casteist Hindutvadi fanatic, so her article’s credibility is shot from the very outset.

Dalit:
Manusmriti is a dead scripture. If you take a poll at chowk you will find that hardly any hindu had even heard of it or seen it, and those who had, did not know its contents at all.
This dead document has been resurrected by your coreligionists and their fellow-travellers (who have given a bad name to us secularists) to beat the hindus with.
Yes, we didn`t know about manu or his smriti but we did know about and practised caste system and many of us still do. We knew that we would be polluted if a bhangi touched us, we didn`t allow them to drink water from the same well and broke any plate accidentally touched by her, and we still didn`t mind getting into bed with her if we got the opportunity. All this and similar atrocities we learnt from the society we grew up in and didn`t need any scripture to validate our actions. BTW our muslim rajput neighbours treated their bhangis in identical fashion regardless of the fact whether she was a hindu or a muslim.
Now, instead of telling us of what`s in a dead book, why not go into the scripture which is still used as a book of instruction by your coreligionists and is creating such a havoc on all five continents.

Dalit baby, (and his old buddy)

Can you please write name of one publisher in India who publishes ``ManuSimiriti`` and if possible, give a guess on ``how many copies are sold, or distributed in a decade?``

You may like to check with dalistan.ork or dalitchristian.org if they have any details on this..

``Manusmiriti``

This book that our dear Neighbours are so fond of quoting, where do I get it? I do not know of any shop in Delhi that has it for sale.. Nor did I see it in Delhi public library.. Has anyone on this board ever seen it with their own eyes...

this book must have existed sometime in history.. We all heard about it from missionaries and mullahs quoting it. Never heard about it from pandits and priests in the temple...

Ref saint #248

[Hey Dalit..is it a lie that 50% of jobs in India are reserved for dalits/lower castes - regardless of merit ? Is it a lie that 50% of the seats engineering and medical seats in India are reserved for dalits/lower caste ? Again - regardless of merit?]

Actually, it gets better than just plain reservations but Dalit and Pakistanis won`t accept it.

From http://www.hindu.com/2004/07/01/stories/2004070114431100.htm

{Free medical education for SC/ST students

MUMBAI, JUNE 30. Students belonging to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, and Special Backward Classes (SBC), who have been admitted under the Government quota, will receive free education in private medical colleges in Maharashtra, according to a Cabinet decision today.

The Government will reimburse fully the tuition fee of such students admitted to private medical colleges, the Chief Minister, Sushil Kumar Shinde, told reporters after the weekly Cabinet meeting.

However, the students belonging to the Other Backward Class (OBC) and Economically Backward Class (EBC), whose family income is less than Rs. 65,000, will get a benefit of grant towards 50 per cent of the tuition fee of Rs. 50,000 (medical), Rs. 25,000 (dental), Rs. 12,000 (ayurveda) and Rs. 5,000 (unani, homeopathy and others), whichever is less, the Chief Minister said.

The concession would be provided till the completion of the course, Mr. Shinde said, adding that the Government would incur an additional expenditure of Rs. 8.63 crores in the first year and a total of Rs. 35 crores in four years.}

Compare that to tuition fee per year of Rs. 175,000 for everybody else. A middle-class or lower-middle-class student can`t even dream of a medical education in Maharashtra.

And isn`t Sushil Kumar Shinde a BC himself, handing out goodies to his fellow castemen?

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Dalit dude:

don`t know who your masters are now??.. You haven`t responded to the assertion that ``manusmriti`` is just one of those junk documents like other medieval documents that your masters are following now and killing other non-believers of that document..

I have both dalit and brahmin relatives..my cousins have married into different castes.. We`re striving for a casteless society and we`ll achieve it soon..by the rapid economic progress percolating to all sections of the society..

In the meantime, you and your masters can dream and kill as many non-believers as you can.. before the rest of the world turns out against you folks..