Avant-garde Pakistani Women

Hi zaineb , how r u .Thanks for replying .I can imagine how hard is to control our thoughts and actions and then our ideas and then turn those into words which is the hard part. But I really think that u r doing a splendid Job .I really appreciate it but wht I want from u is if u get sometime in ur busy life ,when u will be free , in a good mood and u don’t have really something to do and u love to do soemthign then plz do give a thought and do write something abt “ the stock market ” how it influences people, while it was time in 90s , when their was no scope of stock market,and the membership was available in just 3- 5 lacs at that time but no one was willing to buy it or invest his money there and today it s worth of 2.5 crore - 7 crore and people r dieing to get a membership. If u don t mind I would really love to read if u write abt How people make millions in just few hours in stock market.
I know that u can t believe it but its actually HAPPENINGS. If u write something abt it i would really appreciate ur efforts in this regard.Previously people say money makes money .....provided u invest . But today its not like that and I guess this statement is no more valid . As u can see that “zyada paisa thoray paisa ko attarat karta hai``in today`s life.and then Wht the shares game going oon there how share’s prices just bulls out.Its do or die game and who survives only who have money and not just money but a enough amount of money to survive.Otherwise u will be kicked out very soon . I was really impressed by stock market as it is really progressing and giving a shoulder to our economy.Its not enough But again a lot more is required. That’s all I guess enough from my side.

1. The Comment: ``In my alternate life, I could have a 4 year old child by now, doing the wife/husband/home-thing, but we don’t get parallel lives.``

I guess each of us in our life faced some situations where there were many options, and each of us has to chose one among those. So this statement is a generic one which applies to all human race...``not to the working women only``

2. The Comment: ``its not the adults that end up pressuring me, its married girls my age who say, you should think about settling down or, don’t worry you will find someone someday”.

Peer pressures are always the hardest to sustain. But each of us makes our choices differently, and we should be able to let nobody tell us what to do.

3. The Comment: “I think women’s expectations have evolved, they can now see more to life than making chapattis and rearing children. But society’s views have remained stagnant, and a home-maker bride is still more desirable than a wilful career woman”.

This is something that is not going to change easily, but by sitting at home things are not gonna get better.

4. The Comment: ``When women are no longer dependant on their husband for support, because they have their own careers, marriage becomes an option. ``

Ideally marriage and career shouldn`t come across, one relates to your emational welfare and maturity and other to the physical welfare and maturity. Each of them are sperate issues and could not replace or decrease the importance of other.

Re: # 13
heres my answer to that. i disagree. i dont think men and women are the wheels of any kind of machine. i think theyre more like a socket and switch, like oil and matches, wind and windmill, get ym drift? 2 things which complement each otehr in thier responsibilities and skill structure. but if they were both to try and somehow attain equality by measuring how much they do or what they do, then it would be disastrous. for smooth functioning, for the continuance of a healthy society men and women will define and redefine thier own roles and those of the opposite sex and will act accordingly. if a switch and a socket decide to do the same things or provide the same function how would that work? it wouldnt. as simple as that. theyre not equal, theye not the same and shouldnt be treated as such. women and inferior in certain things and superior n others and these basic differences are what eventually decide our fates and our societal responsibilities, which will shift with time and evoloution of new skills, new inventions, more stamina, more possibilities.

catfischblues,

``It`s a valid question, and you have every right to ask that. In fact, we should always stop and ask ourselves whether the changes undergoing is what we want.``

Ahh...but to do so is to be labaledd a retrogressive. There is one blueprint, and everyone wants to rush to build someone else`s house.

``yes, our society is changing, and like all changes a change for the good, and inevitable; however, the cons will always follow. If we believe men and women are equal, then the opportunities that are available must be equal to both genders.``

Well, sure..but I`m starting to think that in a society which places precedence of man-woman unions over the individuals of the union (Pakistani society as a whole has not bought into the idea of individualism), then I think it`s more about actually using learned skills rather than sitting at home doing the big nadda. Equality as a notion only makes sense if the men viewed themselves as independent of their families , and the females were denied the same. But for the most part, both men and women view themselves as part of a larger unit and so it`s not really about `unfairness`. Futher, the absence of career professions for the majority means that women don`t really want to do what men are doing (weather it`s agricultural work, or whatever menial and labourious tasks they do).

What I`m getting at is, with modern industry arriving men are now indeed grasping on to the ``me-first`` individualism, and are in fact the source of the breakdown of society. I agree with Zeneb now that I think about it, it`s only natural that the current generation of women look at men and say ``to hell with that, me first TOO``. So in fact, those traditionalists who argue that women in the workforce are a threat to traditions are way too late in complaining, and are picking on the wrong people. The fact is, it is individualistic men who have destroyed traditions, and are the primary threat to traditional notions of `family`.

``The modern rationality is in general a selfish one.``

It need not be. But that`s the paradigm that is being followed in Pakistan/India, and elswhere. It`s time to take stock...

``City life for example, is a life in which you can never possible care for everyone. We all move along our own paths amongst the millions we live and see every day.``

Yes, but to a large degree you used to see the family in tact, and an extended family starting to include friends rather than blood relaitons. The concept of a neighbour had taken additional importence. Urbanism is not new, and has been with us for a while. What is unique is that everyone, even individuals within a family unit, are now primarily concerned with themselves. No?


``...yet many women, I have seen for myself, and mentioned in the artical above, attempt to incorporate their family values in a modern hue. And that in my eyes is progress.``

I would agree...and like I said, with the arrival of modern industry and supporting instutions (modern academia in particular), it only makes sense.

zainab:

My question is this, for the women who choose careers, how many do it for personal satisfaction, rather than simply because they feel compelled to? I find that a lot of young women feel that if they’re unmarried and sitting at home they are being judged as useless and incapable. Is it really fair to impose expectations on all women, doesn’t a liberal society warrant that each person follow their own path without having to justify it.

ok

mind if i answer this my way?

life’s journey is a tonga ride where men and women are the two wheels…the two genders can be made of a host of computations… mother and daughters, father and sons and………however i would chose to focus on one…husband and wife…alright bhai concede me my old fashioned compunctions;)…

…if the two wheels of this tonga move in unison ( which means in the same direction and at the same speed)… then the possibilities of attaining their goal traversing the least distance and consuming the least time is greatest…

therefore….

…what is good for the goose is good for the gender… in very simple language...whatever is good for the male gender should be applicable and good for the female as well…

…that’s all i’ve to say…chaho tO sooli per chaRha dO humain!

lve

t

#10 by vertex

your question was ``Is this really progress? ``

It`s a valid question, and you have every right to ask that. In fact, we should always stop and ask ourselves whether the changes undergoing is what we want.

yes, our society is changing, and like all changes a change for the good, and inevitable; however, the cons will always follow. If we believe men and women are equal, then the opportunities that are available must be equal to both genders. And it is up to the respective genders to choose. In the post modern world, women working is increasngly becoming a norm, and soon in pakistan it will be a taken for granted assumption, just as it is in the west. The modern rationality is in general a selfish one.

City life for example, is a life in which you can never possible care for everyone. We all move along our own paths amongst the millions we live and see every day. No more do we live in villages where you know everyone. In cities, we have a rational relationship; we dont know our neighbours anymore, we work with various people and we will never get to know them personally. This is in general a `selfish` attitude, and yet it is our rationality. However, I would rather term `selfishness` as `individualistic`. The extreme case of this, you would find in London or New York. And this extreme approach to life in general exsists due to a very issue, weak family ties.

In pakistan our family bonds, relatively, are still very strong. There is a tendancy to tilt towards the extreme inidvidualistic independance, which I do agree is just as bad as sitting and serving your husband, yet many women, I have seen for myself, and mentioned in the artical above, attempt to incorporate their family values in a modern hue. And that in my eyes is progress.

The roles are becoming equal. Men and women are sharing responsibilties. A varying amount of jobs are appearing and women have more to look forward to in life. Men are learning from women and women learning from men. We should be grateful that our country is attempting to provide eqaul opportunties for both the sexes, but we must always be cautious to not follow the west entirely. If the uniqueness of our culture is recognized in the developed nation is strong family values and respect we must maintane it along with the western rationality of life, liberty and persuite of happiness.

hello everybody!

I believe the times have changed. In olden days, like in my grandmother`s time they were content being housewives which is in itself a full time job. Let me just say, it is a thankless full time round the clock job and that was all they knew. Husbands provided for them and all they prayed was for a good husband as there was no choice but to remain married. This has changed now, women have educated themselves so they can provide for themselves and dont have to rely on somebody else. My mother is a PHD and she told me education is the most important thing as that is your salvation.
The problem is even if the girls want to or dont want to they have to have an education and a career as the institution of mariage is standing on shaky legs and she never knows where she will end up if she does not have the means to support herself.
It is mostly a matter of survival for most women so they can live and feed themselves and their kids if need arises.
Some women are merely carreer minded and want it for the power and money. There is nothing wrong with it as long as they don`t sacrifice their relationships in the process to be the best.
These days we teach our girls to be competitive and be whoever they want to be. These parents raise their girls to be independant , intelligent and educated women who can think for themselves. The problem arises when they get in the real world and meet all those men who are raised to believe women are worth less compared to them. My friend was a supervisor over 10 men and 2 women in pakistan and everytime she would tell the men to do a certain task she would feel their resentment.
I do want to say all these educated and carrer minded women are but a minute percent of our population. The rest of the women can be divided into two categories:
firstly, ones who have little education, but their husbands have money so they have all the time in the world to do absolutely nothing.
secondly, there are those women who are uneducated and poor yet they work and support their families and sometimes their drug addict husbands . Now these women are not educated but they do have a career just not one we would consider a career.
Society needs to change how it views women and needs to raise its men with a sense of appreciation and respect for women.
I read somewhere the number of women in our educational institutions and our work force is increasing rapidly. If this is true then it will lead to chaos in our society if we do not change how we view our women. Women are not mere posessions but alive and vibrant human beings with their own needs, desires and ambitions.

Xeneb, #7

I can see how some of this is about struggling to mark your ground in a hostile environment. Ambition and the perceived need to give 200% to a job to make the point aside, let`s face facts. If the corporate world were filled with women, the rationale of ``breaking ground`` doesn`t hold...yet I claim there still would be people (probably much more) who would sacrifice family for their ``careers``.

Why? Because we`re selfish...the people who criticize us, especially from the older generation, see this but we`re too self-absorbed to even consider it. In the end, it`s about status and money...and wanting an ever larger share of the crumbs from the pie. Men have been playing that game for a while now, so women want to play that game too. Is this really progress?

Re: # 8 thanks centaur,i tried to do my best with this one.
actually not exactly 1 % of the population because there are plenty more women atleats in the cities that are studying more or working.now theres an entire section of women who do work under extremely difficult circumstances and usually have matric or BA qualification but work long hours for the sake of money. those are factiry workers, garment, textile hosiery etc etc.i will do a feature on them at some point,there are horrific stories of what goes on there.
but coming back to the point, we are responsible for the conditioning.its parents and society that does it.first women were told a marriage would identify them now they are told their career will.nobodys contemplating that both in balance could define a real women.its gone to extremes now, thats the problem.but what if dynamics change?what if family structure changes?isnt the changing world requiring that women be more educated and aware?and if they are educated doesnt that uslaly mean they would want to use thier skill and earn money?what will break this vicious cycle.

This is a very well written article actually. I wonder of what percentage of total population are we talking about? I guess not even 1%. I believe it is about conditioning actually. The conditioning changes the substance of the choices made by most of the women in our society. For conditioning who is to be blamed?

Re: Vertex - #4
its not as simple as that. its all about conditioning. most women in eastern cultures are raised to beleive that thier real identity is when they are enjoined with someone else in matrimony.that thier accomplishemnts will always be undermined and viewed in a distorted way unless and until they are married.so no wonder women have rebelled and taken it in some cases, to the otehr extreme that they want to be ambitious and climb the corporate ladder and stand equal to men. in the process they end up sacrificing family life, children are neglected or in some cases they dont get married till thier 30`s upsetting the whole balance. but thier intention isnt wrong. all they want is to assert thier own identity,in some cases they do take it too far.bt if the whole society accepted women as a wife and as an individual then they wouldnt feel threatened enough to rebel,right?

Brilliant....

No Nation can rise to the heights of glory unless your women are side by side you. We are victims of evil customs. We have shut our women inside 4 walls. Take women as comrades in every sphere of life.

Jinnah`s advice to Muslims

Re:vertex#4

As the saying goes, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The women in Pakistan have been suppressed so much in the name of family values that now the pendulum is swinging in the other direction, where they want to be single and pursue careers. Most traditional countries go through this phase once women start pursuing education. Soon they will realize that what matters at the end of the day is a balanced lifestyle. It is no fun to be single after 35 just as it is no fun to be changing diapers at 19.

Income is always a nice thing, however, this ``career-mindedness`` is not a good thing (for men or women). Of course, the `me-first` generation is growing, so to hell with family or anyone else. It`s all about ``me``, right?

I was struck at how for some their careers define them. It`s always asked: `so what do you do?`. Back in the old days, there were like two answers: trader, or farmer. So, I assume, it wasn`t a defining aspect of one`s life...it was simply a matter of survival.

It`s different now...to an extent. I know many, many people (mostly WASP Americans, btw) who refuse to be slaves to their `career`. They have a strict 9-5 work schedule, and are concerned with their families and friends...they have what I would call robust lives...not like that looser who works from 9am - midnight on something, and probably will see no benefit from it because there are dozens of other losers on his team doing exactly the same thing.

The career-minded (or selfish) individual isn`t a positive thing, it`s a side-effect of corporate culture, which has this nasty, drug-like ability to get some people addicted to their work for the ``promise`` of something better...but usually only marginally so.

The most disturbing aspect of this article is that these ladies` lives revolve around their work. Bad, bad, bad. The goal of a career is to find a position that uses your skills and abilities to their best, often testing you and challenging you in the enjoyable sort of way. If you`re being stressed out and working late hours every other night to such an extent that your loosing friends and contact with your family, then you don`t have a career. You have a job you`re struggling with. The best career-people I know work strict 9-5 hours. They`re that damn good. If your not that good, then is it worth sacrificing your life away for (primarily) someone else`s benefit?

your right yahya sahb, theres defintely women like that and hopefully i shall include them in future article son women`s issues, if you can call them that, infact societal issues actually.
i chose women from varying financial backgrounds beginning with single ones who are working and then married ones who are working for their own reasons.
am glad you enjoyed it, i tried to be as diverse as i could.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts