A Journey Through Our Conscience

Honestly, good job on the article.....

Thankyou everybody for all your comments !!!
I really appreciate all the discussion and the quest behind writing this article was to understand and get input from all you chowkies as to what needs to be done to make Pakistan a society where women are treated justly under the law.
How to stop the abuse abd raise awareness as to the rights of our women.

sincerely,
sajal javid

Re: # 283

after reading your post I am so grateful that Allah gave me such a loving father . In my family women are treated with the utmost respect but in yours I am even afraid to think if you have daughters what their fate is if their father is a such a big , sick pervert who only thinks women are not capeable of anything but sex. I am just blown away by your animosity towards women what did your mother do to you that you are grew up to be so sick. I am not surprised that your wife became your enemy , with your guttar mentality it was even remarkable if she loved you at one point in her life. You are an ungrateful man who is disrespecting the same woman who gave him life and taught him all he knows about this world and now he sees women as nothing .
I am a woman and believe me i do not need any confirmation from you and secondly if you wish to adress me , address me as a woman other wise please refrain to talk to me.
I do not and have never entertained jerks, perverts and a sick shrivelled up man who does not even know how to talk.

Re: # 226

I am sorry for not replying earlier but you Sir are a sick , twisted poor excuse of a man.

Re: # 299:

``Murders and massacres are justified as wars for ``freedom``, while the freedom fighters - regardless of their religion and/or nationality - are deemed terrorists and even their families are tortured and killed with impunity. Hardened killers walk out free on technicality, while the victims are rendered statistics and `collateral damage`. On the other hand, killing the aggressors - be it at a national level or personal - is severely punished in various inhumane forms.

The current rule of thumb is ``might is right``. Every one does whatever he/she likes, chaos and anarchy has engulfed the whole world and only Shaitaan and disbelievers benefit from the prevailing volatile conditions. And if that`s the way we want it, then we cannot stop anyone from exerting his/her might. Certainly we cannot complain when Allah exerts His Might through His believers , as He retains most Rights to this earth than anyone and everyone inhabiting it.

--

Interesting.. don`t know if you live in North America.. If so, would be eager to know if FBI had a talk with u already..

Re: # 298

Dear Mr. teshah,

First of all, please accept my humble apologies for any disrespect I may have demonstrated in the previous response to you. I just looked at your profile, and being the younger in every sense of the word, I feel I owe you an apology.

You have correctly assessed my being a simple Muslim who has a lot to learn about Islam. If scholars like Bukhari and others of his stature - who devoted their entire lives to Islam, claimed they still had a lot to learn, even ``simple Muslim`` seems to be an overstatement in my case.

(`antisyed`,isn`t it?): Depends on who/what you`re referring to as syed ;-)~~

Being a learned man I hope you will oblige me with correction on my following few simple concepts.

I never imagined you to be so simple as to doubt the authenticity of Sunnan Abudawud and try to check up its veracity after a lapse of over 1000 years.

It is my belief that there is no such thing as blind faith in Islam, albeit a large number of contemporary Muslims believe so. As you`ve pointed out, various groups distort ahadith and even Quranic verses to lead uneducated and simple Muslims astray. Therefore, I always try to check the references before believing anything.

Following is my understanding of ahadith:
My information is that Abu Daud ranks fourth amongs the suha-sittah after Bukhari, Muslim, and Tirmidhi. He`s followed by Ibn Maja, and I can`t remember the sixth name. The significance of the ranking is to distinguish who amongst them has compiled most number of authentic ahadith. By that measure, Bukhari contains some dha`eef ahadith; Muslim has a slightly greater number of dha`eef ahadith, and so on.

Therefore, amongst the top four reporters, Abu Daud has most number of dha`eef ahadith.

Now, to distinguish a mustanad (authentic) hadith from others, I look at all the people who narrated a particular hadith until it reached one of the suha-sittah reporters. Their (narrators`) credibility, lineage and other factors are considered to determine the authenticity, because there are some israeli ahadith as well. As is apparent, the latter are narrated by Jews. Some of them are from the Old Testament and confirm various verses and ahadith of our Prophet (pbuh). Others of this group are either grossly distorted from the Old Testament and/or Quran and ahadith of our Prophet (pbuh) for the obvious purpose.

Therefore, veracity of a hadith must be checked if there seems to be controversy, contradiction, or anything of that sort, and doesn`t (at least seem to) conform to the Shar`ia. Then it is incumbent upon the literate to convey the truth to an illiterate like me. Otherwise, cults evolve and cause problems for everyone.

What little bit I have been able to discover about the hadith in question, it appears you`ve read and quoted a distorted version of a Sahih (authentic) hadith, as did the Ahmedi fellow.

The woman was not the blind man`s slave - she was his wife. (first twist ;-)~~)

Secondly, as you`ve mentioned yourself, he forbade and rebuked her repeatedly before resorting to the extreme measure out of frustration and overwhelming anger. Perhaps you can or cannot imagine the amount of love some of his (pbuh) followers have for him. Following is an apt example.

If you read about the Battle of Badr, Abu Jahal was brought down by two young boys, and later beheaded by an adult companion (ra). Historians claim that the boys were not even tall enough to hang their swords in their waistbands without dragging them (swords) on the ground. The only reason they were in the battlefield was to kill Abu Jahal because he used to slander the Prophet (pbuh). Now imagine Abu Jahal who was big burly and a fierce fighter, and imagine the love for the Prophet (pbuh) and courage of the two young boys, probably in their early teens if not younger. One of the boys was attacked by Abu Jahal`s son who severed one arm of the boy from shoulder. The arm was hanging only by skin, which became an obstacle for the boy. The boy pressed the hand of the cut and loosely hanging arm under his feet and yanked his arm away, and continued fighting until he was martyred. On the contrary, we witness the chicken modern soldiers of BS freedom crying and scared shi*tless, which they use to justify killing innocent civilians - men, women, and children. Later they end up in asylums or homeless or psychotics wreaking havoc on their populations.

Anyway, Context of the hadith in question: Blasphemy (second twist ;-)~~)
Blasphemy is also sedition, except that it is of the highest magnitude, i.e. against Allah. It is a direct and wanton attack on the very foundation of our faith.

For one thing, it provokes deep rooted emotions of the believers and drives them towards anger and violence, and all hell breaks loose. Naturally, when the foundation is attacked, the response called-for could not be mild.

Seconldy, if a blaphemer is not stopped he/she threatens the younger and future generations in terms of faith, understanding of Islam, and obedience to Allah. Ostensibly this is the case with a lot of people on this very portal. They greedily accept all that Allah gives them, then turn around and question His Existence and Mercy, then again they turn around and expect Mercy from Him.

Digression: the nation of `aad was destroyed for the very reason - they would ask Allah to forgive their previous sins and infractions but then turn around and mock Him again. Until, there came a point that Allah wiped them off. We as Muslims are lucky that our Prophet (pbuh) invoked Allah not to destroy us for similar behaviour. Otherwise, it`s certainly overdue for us.

Back to the topic...
Since Allah has appointed all His messengers Himself and guarantees their infallibility in all His scriptures He sent through them to the mankind, therefore, slandering the Prophets (pbut) - not just Mohammad (pbuh) - is also considered blasphemy against Allah.

Regardless of one`s gender, social status, etc. sedition and treason are to be punished severely, as the whole idea behind it is to disrupt the peace in a community and the concept of punishment is to maintain peace through law & order. Hence, blasphemy being sedition against the Highest Authority, must be dealt with accordingly to maintain law & order in the community.

However, the penalty is to be waived if the accused erred unintentionally out of ignorance and he/she repents and promises not to repeat the offense.

The current condition:
Ever since the world has stopped punishing the three major sins when they threaten the foundation and fabric of the society, for which Allah the Exalted Himself orders the rulers to impose death penatly - i.e. Shirk/disbelief/blasphemy, adultery, and murder, the entire humanity has spun out of control into lawlessness.

Cases in point:
It is legally permissible for the ignorants to blaspheme and ridicule the believers and their obedience to Allah, whereas believers - who have nothing to do with politics, war, terrorism - are horded in droves into jails, tortured beyond recognition and killed throughout the world. Believers are even forbidden to retort when ridiculed and persecuted. Justice, eh!

In predominently Muslim communities, Polygamy is becoming more and more taboo (mainly due to the weaknesses of the men involved), and in non-Muslim countries it is a crime. Meanwhile, prostitution and general fornication, which more than often result in abortion, infanticide, STDs, dysfunctional and broken families to name a few, have been legalised.

Murders and massacres are justified as wars for ``freedom``, while the freedom fighters - regardless of their religion and/or nationality - are deemed terrorists and even their families are tortured and killed with impunity. Hardened killers walk out free on technicality, while the victims are rendered statistics and `collateral damage`. On the other hand, killing the aggressors - be it at a national level or personal - is severely punished in various inhumane forms.

The current rule of thumb is ``might is right``. Every one does whatever he/she likes, chaos and anarchy has engulfed the whole world and only Shaitaan and disbelievers benefit from the prevailing volatile conditions. And if that`s the way we want it, then we cannot stop anyone from exerting his/her might. Certainly we cannot complain when Allah exerts His Might through His believers, as He retains most Rights to this earth than anyone and everyone inhabiting it.

As for our dear Prophet (pbuh) as `Rehmatulaalimin`, let there be no doube that second only to Allah, he (pbuh) is the Rehmatulaalimin as Allah has claimed in the Quran as well. Otherwise, he (pbuh) would not have granted general amnesty upon conquering Makkah. There were many other tribes and communities before and after that grand event that he (pbuh) pardoned and set free for the sake of Allah. Even the person who had martyred the Prophet (pbuh)`s dear uncle Hamza (ra) was spared when he embaraced Islam. It was his mercy and kindness that he (pbuh) never killed a hypocrite/apostate/disbeliever, even though Allah had made him (pbuh) well aware of those hyprocrites. The only times they were killed were when they had become a threat to the community.

As an expample, I`m sure you must have come across the exceptions on the conquest of Makkah. There were few (I don`t remember the exact number) major kuffar who had caused tremendous mischief in the past and were not going to change their ways in the future either. Hence, by Allah`s command, our Prophet (pbuh) ordered those few kuffars to be put to the sword and so they were.

The important thing to remember here is that whenever Allah raised a prophet from a community, the Prophets (pbut) only did what Allah told them to do. Not even a single letter any of them said that did not come to them from Allah. That`s why Allah stresses in the Quran and all the previous books to follow the Prophets (pbut) if one wishes to obey Allah, and disobedience of the Prophets (pbuh) is disobedience of Allah. Instead, for our contemporary conveniences we believe and obey Allah selectively, which negates the very definition of belief and faith in Him.

Now some, due to their ignorance and reluctance to seek the truth, twist the aforementioned facts as contraditions between Quran and Sunnah. Then so be it. One cannot be educated until he/she wishes for it. These people look for `one-line` solutions/answers, and mostly their first intent is to find words they can twist to maintain their ignorant complacency and material conveniences.

With a degree in political science, I`m sure you`ll agree that there is a reason to have a govt. Similarly, there are reasons for the govt to implement laws. Just the fact that the govt. of Pakistan (any govt for that matter) fails to implement fair hudood and all other laws and regulations to maintain peace and encourage properity at the behest of other countries, one does not automatically obtain the right to slander the Prophet (pbuh), Quran, and Allah. The ones who claim this right should be ready for the push back they receive. By virtue of their infringement, they forfiet the right to demand a certain level/kind of response.

If one wishes to live in a global village, then each and every one has to respect the others` views beliefs and so forth, MUSLIMS CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO BE THE ONLY ONES TO ABIDE BY THIS PRINCIPLE. If people who wish to live in the 70th century humor and/or blast the foundations of my belief and wish to live in the 7th century Arabia, then they should not complain about the manner I respond to their disrespect. The moment one disrespects the other, he/she loses the right to be respected, until and unless the agressor apologizes. I`m sure with your education and experience you have discerned who has started what, and what he/she deserves in return. To put it simply, it`s a two way street.

I hope your dinner is still warm.

M`as-salaam

Re: # 297

ntsyed

``This particular hadith you`ve quoted has been quoted by the anti-Muslim camp for the obvious reasons. If I remember correctly, last time it was quoted to me by an Ahmedi, who whimsically accepts, quotes, and rejects the Prophet (pbuh) and his ahadith to suit/justify his claims. As I told him, I cannot verify the authenticity of the hadith without proper references, thus cannot make a comment on it until I do.``


Thank you dear ntsyed (`antisyed`,isn`t it?) for your interaction? I never imagined you to be so simple as to doubt the authenticity of Sunnan Abudawud and try to check up its veracity after a lapse of over 1000 years. For your information I had come across the said Hadees in the Urdu monthly `Aldahwah`of Lashkare Tayyabah. I was also surprised to read it as it seemed itself to be blasphemic as it appeared to negate the very concept of the Prophet as `Rehmatulaalimin`. Nay, in fact it negated blatantly all the human values avowed by Islam. What surprised me was the fact that the extremists invoked it for justifying the lynching of the people by accusing them of blasphemy. And you say this Hadees is quoted by anti-muslim camp for obvious reasons! For your information all `Illamdeeni` cult is obviously based on this Hadees. Sorry, my breakfast is getting cold. So, more later on.

Malikjahanzeb

Excuse me, dear, I don`t agree with your opinion about ntsyed. As appears from his ineraction discussed above he seems to be a simple muslim who has lot to learn about Islam.

Re: # 295

teshah,

The hadith you`ve quoted may or may not be authentic. Simply saying it is narrated by xyz and compiled in abc`s work does not guarantee authenticity. One has to see the complete chain of narrators, examine their credetials, etc to determine a hadith authentic or weak. Furthermore, some pertinent information seems to be missing from the text you`ve typed; e.g. the identities of the blind man and the woman; when did this incident take place; who else among the notable companions of the Prophet (pbuh) were present, and so forth.

This particular hadith you`ve quoted has been quoted by the anti-Muslim camp for the obvious reasons. If I remember correctly, last time it was quoted to me by an Ahmedi, who whimsically accepts, quotes, and rejects the Prophet (pbuh) and his ahadith to suit/justify his claims. As I told him, I cannot verify the authenticity of the hadith without proper references, thus cannot make a comment on it until I do.

As for my orientation - I am only a Muslim, Alhumdolillah, just like my Prophet (pbuh) was. He was neither a sunni nor a shia, and he (pbuh) has strictly forbidden us from creating divisions amongst ourselves. Therefore, I`m neither a sunni nor shia nor any other kind... just a plain and simple Muslim I am, who obeys the Quran and Prophet (pbuh) to the best of my abilities.

To me all women are respectable regardless of their respect for themselves and others. Allah and Prophet (pbuh) tell me not to look at na-mehram women; not to have unnecessary contact with them; treat all of them gently and respectfully regardless of their age, status, religion, etc... and that`s what I do to the best of my ability and beg Allah to help me do better.

You will find the correct information in places they are contained, not in places where they`re not. Honesty is not only the best policy, it`s the foremost virtue. Without honesty, one never finds the will to seek the correct information, nor does he find it, and nor will he be able to act on it. I hope you can see where the stress is in the preceding statements.

Otherwise, please find someone else to exploit his/her words in your efforts to smear Islam.

While you`re at it, think of how much difference there is between blasphemy vis a vis sedition and treason against a non-Islamic state; and how are the convicted dealt with. I`m sure, at your age, you`ll be able to see the parallels.

You seem way past the age of reformation, particularly an externally induced one. But, if you seek Allah with honesty, then may Allah find you soon.

mj,

Your simple refusal to study the history will not change it. Many have come and gone in the last 1400 years, with the hope that the views held by people like me ``will eventually die and hopefull his next generation will manage to cut down on fanaticism and the after 4-5 generations, under the modren facilities of communication and education, the world will become more coherant in it`s views.`` A similar view is summed up with sex and violence in Holly, Bolly, Lolly and other woody movies, most of which are false fantasies in a world of fantasies. Why don`t you busy yourself with figuring out how many 4-5 generations it must have been in the last 1400 years to make you particular fantasy (as highlighted above) come true. lol

On the other hand, during the same period as above, in spite of incessant overt and covert efforts to distort, suppress and/or eliminate it, Islam continues to thrive more than ever. The wise amongst the anti-Muslim crossed the chasm and became most sincere servants of Allah. The rest have fizzled away in the dust of history. Case in point: the subsequent powerful generations of Ganges Khan served Islam more than their grand and great grandfather had destroyed it.

The simple explanation for such a phenomenon is that True Islam is the only natural way to live. Fighting the nature has only yielded more and bigger problems (in every sense of the word) for the mankind; as you can see for yourself in the current environment. So, learning to live according to the One Who Created this nature is the only logical solution to all the problems. Just ponder the questions I put forth in #291, and you will see what I mean.

By now you`ve firmly established the fact that you`ve never seriously studied Quran or ahadith to continue your fantasy that can vanish any given second. All that hot-air about ``I`ve chewed it, digested it, blah blah blah`` was just that - hot air.

The reality, that you seem to deliberately miss by a mile or more, is that everytime you reject, distort, and defame Islam, more and more people are born into and embracing Islam... ALLAH O AKBER

By the way teshah, the above response to mj also applies to you :-)~~

Ciao

teshah,

that`s why i don`t have high hopes to communicate with ntsyed. the only way things will proceed is that ntsyed with his world views will eventually die and hopefull his next generation will manage to cut down on fanaticism and the after 4-5 generations, under the modren facilities of communication and education, the world will become more coherant in it`s views. but that doesn`t concern me because i would be dead by then and i don`t believe in reincarnation, not because i preclude the possibility of it`s happenning but because even if it occurs and the soul doesn`t remember anything about it`s past, what is the point then?

so, let`s keep discussing to keep ourselves busy and entertained. ;-)

Re: # 294

ntsyed
``Then in the Quran, Allah instructs the users (His believers) to follow the Prophet - Allah`s peace and blessings be upon him - becuase he (pbuh) was the ultimate embodiment of Quran. He showed us how to follow the Quran as a human being for maximum benefit, therefore we must seek out his (pbuh) ahadith to learn from him.

Now you have the System: Islam
The best Instruction Manual for it: the Noble Quran
And the best expert of this system: authentic ahadith of the Prophet - peace and blessings be upon him.``

My question: Do you think the Hadees I quoted in my post at 202 is an authentic one? If so what lesson does it convey? Mind, it is from Sunnan Abudawud which is included in the Suha-sittah, the six compilations of Ahadees considered authentic by the Sunnies and is the main basis perhaps of the Law of Blasphemy in Pakistan. Perhaps you may claim to be a Shia and reject all these Ahadees as unauthentic. But then some Shias express doubt even about the authenticity of the Quran.

For your convenience I repeat the said Hadees hereunder:

``Sunnan Abudaud

Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother(a sex-slave who bears one`s children out of wed-lock) who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him (Why she did so it does not tell). He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master(mind, not a husband); she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.``

What lesson one can draw from this Hadees, particularly, about the status of the woman in Islam, if at all, a female `sex-slave` is considered to be a `woman`?

292 malikjahanzeb

How can one think of a `practical common frame of reference` in the face of the cults based on blasphemy lynching? But nevertheless it is indeed life and death question for the humanity to find one if it has to exist in the global village as the world has come to be with the weapons of mass massacre.

Re: # 292

mj:

don`t give credit to your flawed lagics.

I never do... Allah provides us the ability to understand the rationale, of which logic is a subset. ALLAH O AKBER!

It seems flawed to you because you refuse to face the truth.

you are diving deeper and deeper into absurdity and i dont see any hope in penetrating these many layers.

Gold is rarely found on the surface. One has to dig deeper and deeper to get to it. The gold nuggets that one digs out with his/her hard labour is pure and worths more than the one he/she buys/sells in market.

the best you do is usually articulate your non-sense in never ending stories. i do not feel like debating the stuff with you because you are not leaving us with a practical common frame of reference to communicate.

As a man keen on literature, it should not be difficult for you to discern the moral of the story, as all these point to the Only Frame of Reference - Allah and our needs and benefits of obedience to Him.

Submission and obedience to Allah is the only practical common frame of reference and solution available to mankind today... as it was in the 7th century, and will be till the end of time. It`s baseless and unthoughtful rejection neither has benefitted anyone, nor it will.

I know you and some others will contend that the ground realities are much different from the 7th century Arabia. One only needs to study the pre-Islamic history of not just Arabia, but the entire world, and he/she will the stark similarities in the two eras - then and now.

Secondly, as the Creator, He is more aware of the ground realities of yesterday, today, and tomorrow than collectively all human beings could be. Therefore, the Quran was the only solution then, it is today, and it will remain so tomorrow. One just needs to study it with honesty towards himself/herself.

Example:
You can buy a computer and based on your understanding you start using it without consulting the accompanying operator`s manual and user guide. The Quick Guide, pop up messages and instructions and errors will only take you so far, and if you notice they refer you to the user guide and/or consult the experts.

You`ll experience its optimum performance if you study and follow the instructions and advices in the enclosed booklets. You`ll obtain even more output if you consult the manufacturer and other experts of the system. Therefore, the level of your benefits increases corresponding to the effort you put into learning the system, instead of living off of pop-up windows.

Similarly, what a mullah and I say are just pop up windows, asking you to refer to the instructions manual and user guide: the Quran and the authentic Ahadith of the Prophet (pbuh).

Food for thought:
Look at the word ALLAH - His actual Name as He prefers

First of all, I`m sure you can see that there are only three letters used in this phrase: A, H, and L. Similarly, in arabic there are only three letters that form this phrase: Alif, Laam, and small Ha.

If you think about it, these are the only and same three letters in their respective languages that form the most powerful political statement in the world: La-ilaha illallah

How is it the most powerful statement? Because my dear brother, by submitting one`s self to Allah with this statement one experiences absolute freedom. With just this small sentence he rejects being subjugated by any mortal being or society and everything else in this universe. The fear of poverty, persecution, and even death vanishes from one`s heart if and when one submits to Allah (as his Creator and True Lord) with utter humbleness and sincerity. The heart and mind are then filled with love, respect, and fear of Allah only.

Secondly, I don`t know too many languages, but I`m sure that to say the word Allah and the statement La-ilaha-illallah in any language will produce the same result as in Arabic and English - just three letters that represent these basic sounds of speech.

I have yet to see any human being form a statement, let alone as powerful as this one, in this fashion. Only Allah can do it. ALLAH O AKBER!

This food for thought gives us only 1st of the countless reasons to believe in Allah as our Creator and our Ultimate Benefactor.

Then, if one believes in Allah and submits to Him, he/she realizes the benefits of following the His Instructions Manual - The Noble Quran.

Then in the Quran, Allah instructs the users (His believers) to follow the Prophet - Allah`s peace and blessings be upon him - becuase he (pbuh) was the ultimate embodiment of Quran. He showed us how to follow the Quran as a human being for maximum benefit, therefore we must seek out his (pbuh) ahadith to learn from him.

Now you have the System: Islam
The best Instruction Manual for it: the Noble Quran
And the best expert of this system: authentic ahadith of the Prophet - peace and blessings be upon him.

All you need to do is to put in the required effort to understand it and reap the most benefits out of it. Otherwise, you`ll continue to misunderstand the system and endlessly keep investing in new ones, when there is none like it.

The rest is up to you, and between you and your Creator.

M`as-salaam!

teshah#283:

Guilty as charged: Muddat hui hai yaar ko mehmaan kiye huai!

I was an infrequent visitor to chowk for some time as I was very busy with a project which is now coming to an end. I will be more regular now unless another project falls into my lap without looking for it.

You were write about Manu Smriti. It is the name of a book attibuted by Manu. It lays down some very regressive caste-based laws for the Hindus. Fortunately, the Hindu Code Bill, one of the genuine reforms undertaken by Nehru is now the new ``Manu Smriti`` for the Hindus.

Regarding the question, it seems that not only you, but no one else seems to know the answers. In any case, I am reposting those questions in case someone missed them in my last post:

Does anyone know what are the hadood laws when a non-muslim woman complains of rape/zabar/zina against a muslim man?
Is it a crime for a muslim to have a non-consensual sex with a non-muslim woman? If so, whose witness is admissible?
What is the punishment if the crime is proved?
What happens in the opposite case, namely, if it is a muslim woman and a non-muslim man?

nt:

don`t give credit to your flawed lagics. the best you do is usually articulate your non-sense in never ending stories. i do not feel like debating the stuff with you because you are not leaving us with a practical common frame of reference to communicate. you are diving deeper and deeper into absurdity and i dont see any hope in penetrating these many layers.

Re: # 289 & 290

I think for now Yale & Harvard would suffice you to learn the basics of logic and its relationship with rationale. Noam Chomsky there will be wonderful resource for you to begin with. Perhaps, then you`ll be ready to understand what this whole thing is really about.

``Don`t you think the same ``WHEN and WHAT circumstances`` apply to Bush as well..

NO!

I think you need to take some time off chowk and read the various international reports to understand what exactly is going on... too much CNN, BBC, and Fox are not good for anyone`s intellect.

*after Sept 11, it is no longer possible to ignore Muslims as just a set of regressives who want to take the world back to the 7`th century..

It is not about Muslims trying to take the whole world back to 7th century. How many Muslims do you think are in South America? How about China...do you think N. Korea has a sizable Muslim population?

It is the US led Coalition of Willing who are taking the world in that direction...even farther back to 7th century BC. Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestinian camps are just a few clear proofs of that. But the truth seldom jumps out from the headlines; one has to dig deeper to get to it.

Do you think the growing global economic gap between the rich and poor is being widened by the Muslims? Do some studying to see who`s driving this train backwards.

Why do you think that after thousands of arrests, torture, killings by the US and the rest of the Coalition of the Willing there has not been ``1`` single SOLID ``conviction`` on terrorism?

Why do you think after 5 years of Bush reign, Palestinian issue remains where it was when he stole the White House? Sure it must be the Palestinians... `cause Bush, Sharon and AIPAC, AEI, The Hudson Institute, etc are mere lambs and doves of peace and prosperity for all.

Why do you think Iraq continues to burn 2 years after the mighty Coalition forces removed the terrible dictator? Do you think they really don`t have the means to crush the rebellion?

With their control over Afghanistan, do you think they`re really that weak to stop the poppy cultivation and most horrible law & order situation? What`s seems to be the problem when the Taliban have been chased off and they recently had successful elections?

Why do you think not one Hindu fanatic has been charged in the Gujrat riots yet? Even when official Indian reports have declared that Muslims did not instigate it. Which century do you think those Hindus were from...500 BC, or the stone age to have cut out the unborn babies from their alive mother`s wombs just to see what would happen to their tiny heads on their tiny bodies if a boulder was dropped on them? Do you think it would take the Indian govt. that long to find the culprits and mete out justice, when they allegedly have a formidable force to swallow Pakistan effortlessly and then take on the Chinese?

But hey, the`re the largest democracy of the World, majority of whose population is being pushed into destitution, drugs, thuggery, prostitution, etc etc etc. It has come to the point that one of the elightened Indians here claims that ``Prostitutes are most liberal women`` `cause they have the guts to work alone at night. The dim wit doesn`t realize that muder and robbery are even more gutsy acts, which would then make the hardened criminals more and more liberal as their rapsheets gets longer. And it is so refreshing to see that NONE of the liberal women came forward to correct him. Nor did any of the Righteous Liberal Men had anything to say about it. It must be the new trend. WOW!

I don`t know about you or the aforementioned groups, but I`ll be bluntly honest with you that I cannot allow women of my household to reach this new summit of Liberalism.

You need to read the Quran on your own, instead of reading verses here & there and believing what the disoriented ``moderate`` Muslims here have to say in order to modernize Islam, beofre you form an opinion about it. As Pink Floyd said, these people are comfortably numb in their western cocoons. Little do they (or even the non-Muslim mouth pieces of the Corporate Crooks and King makers of G8) know that even if they reddened their hands with Muslims blood to appease the Coalition of the Willing, the latter will slaughter them before they have a bout of conscienceness. It was recently demonstrated in Bosnia, Kosovo, Gujrat, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

But one cannot expect the Headline Generation juveniles to put in that effort.

MJ,
nt, beleive me man you are sick. and your sickness has much to do with the inability to see it......

That`s it? Is that the best you could come up with? LOL

You turned out to be hot air after all. afsos sud afsos....sighhhhhhhhhhh

The straitjacketed inside an asylum always consider the ones outside as mentally sick

since you`re into poetry, I`m sure you could explain this following one to me;

badal ker bhase phir atay hain her zamanay mein;
agarchey peere hai adam, jawan hain laat o manat;
wo aik sajda jisay to gira(n) samajhta hai;
hazar sajdon se deta hai aadmi ko nijaat.

Beware though; do come up for air when its depth begins to drown you :-)~~

Ciao

nt, beleive me man you are sick. and your sickness has much to do with the inability to see it......