Growing up an American Muslim Ferozk: Yes, of-course, one has to compromise... in politics it is all about timing, and using one`s instinct to an extent to gague when to strike, and when the time is just right... now the Repubcs`. timing in case of impeachment was a fascinating example of bungling and not realizing that America is no longer living in the 40s or 50s it`s the end of the 90s... :) I have all the respect for true conservative republicans for whom conservativsm means integrity, and values... these psuedo conservatives are just as bad as ``liberals...`` This hijaab debate, oh dear, boring really, read it all before... nothing new. Thanx for the conversation, will talk some more on another article...

Growing up an American Muslim Rishi: re: ``few hispanics want to learn english`` -this is not really true, by and large most overwhleming majority want to learn English. The issue is a bigoted treatment towards Spanish. Latinos, 2nd generation etc. are very much bi-lingual. While for now English has a hold, iin the future Spanish will be the key to good positions, and networking. Even if English is the language of trade, Spanish is the language that will get you in through the ``informal`` door... this is a demographic reality. I honestly do not think that Muslims even register as a blip on the radar screen for now, they`re mostly concentrated in low level white collor jobs , rarely with any position of power or authority, and with little political muscle to show `cause of infighting, and disorganization.

Freozk: re: compromise: yes groups generally do need to compromise... but only when they need to do so. Right now Latinos have no need to compromise, speaking for Los Angeles, for example... the old Black political structrue is whitering away, and being rapidly replaced by Latino politics, that includes demmands that schools, and social services train and recruite people familiar with their language and culture. -I work as a social worker, in Compton, CA, a once Black city, now 60% Latino.. but the social services have not changed and continue to be focused only on Blacks. This will have to change very soon. (I by the way speak fluent Spanish, and lived in Mexico, and on the Texas/Mexico border for a few years -hence my sympathies:)) . Right now, in California, if you go for a job that involves any public contact, and you speak Spanish, chances are you`ll be placed fare ahead of other applicants). -Anyways this is a little digression from the topic) -But the next generation of desis may not be talking about

Pepsi, and McDonalds -they may be talking about burritos, enchiladas, horchata, and tortas, and tamarindos... -Altaf

Growing up an American Muslim Ferozk: You may not like it buddy, but Latinos, their culture, the Spanish language is here to stay in America. In many of the large cities of the US, it is the Latino which is the largest block of votes. In much of California, they are the majority... and it is that culture and that politics that will in the coming decades determine how the US evolves. Thankfully, they are a tolerant lot, far more so than whites, or other immigrants including the south asians... Don`t worry you won`t have to subsidize anything too much too long... since that culture is poised to be the dominant culture in the US, at least on both sides of the coasts, the southwest, and increasingly in the mid-west... Desis might well get some fovor out of this, since there are many cultural similarities... provided they don`t get wind of the recationaryism within the south asian communities in the US.

Growing up an American Muslim Melting pot? US? Where? English only? Sure, in schools maybe... aqui en Los Angeles hablamos espanol!

The Marriage Trap Same problem here in the USA, no different amongst south asians... I aggree with RR it is a cultural problem with few opportunities for social interaction. No wonder more and more folks are expanding their horizons and not restricting themselves to desis, and/or their particular religious backgruonds... of-course as people give up on the idea of getting married to a desi, that further shrinks the pool of eligibles.

Chowk Special Kafir: For those interested in what Kafir is talking about ``human nature`` might want to check out a recent interview of Noam Chomsky i got linked on my home page: http://www.wco.com/

Ramadan: Then and Now Futema: Thanx for your comments, I aggree with you; and if we look at things overall, sure there are good and bad. And the ``mechanical world``, I suggested, might well be welcomed by someone who is without work, and not able to provide for their family... my observation might be of a new immigrant looking back... so the picture is rosy, and with a nostaligia for the place left behind. Still, Ramadan`s observance changes life`s routine; in a way that is presently not possible here, as the wider society of the ``west``, -i.e. San Francisco in the poem, does not quite appreciate.

Chowk Special Anita: Re: Ali`s anti-millitary stance...: Ali says in the Nahjul Balagah ``

``Do not call to combat but respond if you are called to it, for the provocateur is an oppresssor, and an oppressor is to be felled.`` (From translation by Thomas Cleary, Living and Dying with Grace) -Altaf

Chowk Special Wasiq and others... if the history that Wasiq relates is correct/true, and if the current Quran we have is merely a compilation that is prone to error, and may indeed be incomplete in some ways (though we do not know to what extent). If that is so, can we or should we still look towards the Quran as a source of wisdom, or spirituality? It appears to me, and even though we have this history, the quran has played a remarkable role in developoing people`s inner being, and even with what we have, there have been profound mystics... such as Ibn `al Arabi, who`ve expounded upon the esoteric aspects of the Quran... But what are your and others thoughts? -Altaf

Ramadan: Then and Now afrasiyab: It is sick what is taking place in Pakistan, and in neighboring Iran, no one with an impulse for creativity is safe anymore, be they poets, writers, social workers, artists, or whoever...from the news reports this does not appear to be a death squad type killing, but what kind of a culture is it where arguments are resolved by killings? Not only in Pakistan, but right here in the US of A. But at least, as far as I know there are no targeted killings taking place of creative people as it is in Iran and Pakistan.

Chowk Special Wasiq: since you did bring up this point; in early Shiah traditions there are questions about the ``original Quran.`` It would indeed be intriguing to say the least, if there was a Quran out there with sustantial diffrences. Unfortuantley the Atlantic Montly article doesnt go much into this... and Muslim scholars may be too scared to go into this territory.

There is a book that explores some of the questions of a Quran with some additional verses:

The Divine Guide in Early Shiism by Mohammad ali Amir-Moezzi -This is an

excellent book to understand the esoteric tradition in Islam. The book also

briefly discusses the implications of the esoteric becoming exoteric. i.e. the

original ideas being taken over by the current jurist-ulemas.

-altaf

Chowk Special sallam

This letter is a response to the article, hilighting the misunderstandings of the Quran by the authors of the article... It is written by Jeremiah McAuliffe, a frequenter of alt.religion.islam.

altaf



From: alimhaq@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe)

Letters to the Editor

The Atlantic Monthly

77 North Washington Street

Boston, MA 02114

December 30, 1998

To the Editor,

As a convert to Islam with a background in academic religious

studies, it was with great excitement and enthusiasm that I opened

your January 1999 cover article ``What is the Koran?`` by Toby Lester.

It seems clear that much of Muslim theology has stagnated into a dry

legalism over the last few centuries, as represented by the famous

phrase ``closing the doors to ijtihad``. ``Ijtihad`` refers to the

interpretation of the Qur an. (The phrase is famous among Muslims,

and is central to understanding many issues facing contemporary

Muslims, but this was not mentioned by the author.)

And so, I approached the article anticipating an exciting

exploration. However, I was very disappointed. It clearly exhibited a

confused understanding of some aspects of Muslim thought-- including

statements that were simply misleading-- and a confusion between two

interesting topics: the history of the Qur an and the interpretation

of the Qur an. In addition, Lester makes use of references that are

out of print and/or written by self-proclaimed antagonists to Islam.

In other words, there is no way to check many of the author s major

references, and some of them are clearly bigoted-- not academic.

First, the problematic references. Lester refers to the seemingly

authorless The Origins of the Koran. This lapse in attribution is

understandable given that this collection of essays is edited by none

other than the infamous, pseudonymous ``Ibn Warraq`` author of Why I am

Not a Muslim. This earlier work cannot be described as anything

resembling valid academic scholarship, as I show with my online

review available at: http://idt.net/

Gulabo and the Courage of Our Convictions fozia: thanx for bringing up the perspective of those of us who live in the ``west`` . Really , the shadis are not so much different here than what takes place in Paistan. Much of it being based upon what ``will people say`` if such and such does

not take place, or if such and such is done...

I`ve been to several weddings of some of my close friends who are not south asian, and who also choose to have an ``alternative`` wedding... keeping things simple, with the involvement of close friends and family, that also included rituals/ and ceremonies that reflected their own beliefs about marriages, and what it is that is sacred and/or holy. While simple, these weddings appeared to be so much more of an intimate, and ``sacred`` affair, than so many of the huge shadis i`ve been to... It appears that the wedding has lost its meaning when it becomes a big event for the sake of everyone else. -This is of-course aside from the financial hardship it causes to low-income south asians here in the US as well.

Having said that, i think that many of us have been brought up with the idea of a big wedding, and i would venture to guess that even those of us who are questioning these events may very well want (a secret, if not open desire) to have a huge wedding if/when they do get married :) ...

However, there is the important question that saima shah`s article also asks about the ecnomic benefits of huge weddings, jobs etc. One would hope that more productive jobs could be provided to people than simply depending on weddings. But what does one do meanwhile, while the economy lies in shambles, does this ban not cause even more harm than good?

altaf bihmji

Sex Everywhere AA -good article, what kind of work did you do
in pakistan, with sexually abused persons?
altaf

The Intellectual Imperative aamir, Iqbal`s ``khudi`` is much more
closer to individual level of improving
one`s morals (that`s what i understand at least)
not one of destroying or conquering others.
There are few if any ``intellectual muslims`` out
there who are seriously adovocating a theocracy
along the lines of Iran in Pakistan. There are
plenty of fanatics though... the job of the
intellectuals is to present an alternative to this
fanaticism. And yes, the role of Islam is that
one of personal morality, not one of imposing a
particular interpertation of Islam on everyone .
altaf