Kashmir Fatigue Reply #: 519 tahmed321


//By insisting on college degrees to qualify for election, .... I think Musharaff is showing indications that he is sincere in seeing Pakistan back on the road to democracy.///


This from a self-proclaimed Pakistani ``liberal``. Wow!!! A nation with some 30% literacy - many of whom are madrassa-educated, a handful of dys-functional degree colleges and ghost schools is planning to limit ``democracy`` only to the ``graduates``.


How many of such ``graduates`` are there in pakistan anyway?? Let me take a wild guess - maybe some 2% of the population(??). So an election which is open to only 2% of the population is called ``democracy``?? And when such king`s men are finally ``elected``, will that be the ``real`` democracy that pakistanis are dreaming about??


And the whole snake-oil scheme is being hailed by an educated, western-minded intellectual!! Wow!!!


Good luck to Pakis, if they have hopes getting any democracy, real or otherwise..

Shadowlines (Part I) JAY 612


Why don`t you try drinking urine of mensurating woman for more estrogen. Have Durga Mata brand of urine from the Himalayan valley of India. Devi and Devtaa`s special diet. You S$it head

Kashmir Fatigue sadna #484 I have no desire to get into another dull debate on who said what with you. So, I will correct the misrepresentations you make in this post and not respond further (life`s too short to waste arguing with strangers).


You write ``Remember how I am a bigot for saying jihad is supported by many Pakistanis? ``


You now say it is ``many Pakistanis``. In the discussion you mention, you were applying the same brush to ALL pakistanis as you applied to the religions nuts.


You write ``Remember those corp commanders and my intellectual dishonesty for asking about them? ``


The intellectual dishonesty I noted was NOT because you asked corp commanders, but because you posed this question rather than respond to the simple question I had.


So, your two statements above both clearly misrepresent that discussion (which is there for anyone to read for himself). If this misrepresentation is deliberate, then it falls in the definition of intellectual dishonesty. If it is not deliberate, then this post falls in the definition of intellectually challenged.


I am sorry if the above sounds nasty, but you leave me no choice. I refuse to accept that 2 plus 2 is 5 simply because you say so.

Kashmir Fatigue Re: Shankar


“…The GREATEST contribution of Islam to Indian culture is to the arts…”


I do not think so (don’t get me wrong – Islam has influenced Indian culture tremendously in many positive ways, but there has also been tremendous destruction of art and culture in its name as well) – Islam’s greatest contribution has been social by providing an alternative worldview to Hinduism. Relegating Islam’s contribution to art alone is to underestimate its contribution. Islam is more democratic than dogmatic and hierarchical Hinduism, and theoretically it provides social acceptance to all its adherents (something that dogmatic Hinduism does not). The Hindu ideologue is now forced to consider how to provide a welcoming (albeit grudging) acceptance to the millions of Dalits, when Islam and Christianity offer a welcoming embrace. The Islamic ideologue, however, has a challenge to overcome as well in India’s heterogeneous and stupendously complex society – how to defend antiquated practices (that have now become so routine in countries that wear religion on their sleeves, where symbols not the essence of religious ideals, count more.) in a society where individuals can pick and chose, and are free to interpret faith in any way they want.


This tension is a positive phenomenon – it is only when adherents have a freedom of choice that they can graduate to exercising virtuous choice. If you live in a society where choice is forced, then that choice cannot be considered truly virtuous.


Incidentally, the difference between East and West can largely be explained by three uniquely Western contributions to civilization: democracy, science and capitalism. No Eastern civilization has CONTINUOUSLY INNOVATED in these areas like the West has.


Re: Tahmed321 #395


Your post communicated two sentiments – optimism and helplessness. You are indeed correct in placing your faith in the goodness of the average person in Pakistan, and your optimism in individuals and locally elected officials is well founded. However, I also detected a feeling of helplessness about being able to do anything about the military junta who has accumulated the lion’s share of power.


Re: Dost-Mittar/Kafir Khan on Kashmiri brahmins eating meat


You will all be surprised to know that meat eating is not limited to just Kashmiri brahmins. Many Punjabi brahmins, and those from NWFP eat meat as well. I suspect the practice is quite widespread amongst Malayali, Assamese and Bengali brahmins too. BTW, I was surprised to be offered beef in a restaurant in Kerala once. I realized that the cow belt is literally a continent`s length away.

Kashmir Fatigue

Kashmir Fatigue re:Reply #: 383


fawad79,


You are just 23 and you watch C-Span! At your age, all i did was to watch some B-grade bollywood movie. Your posts also suggest you are an intelligent young lad with open ideas. Just keep your mind open and learn all the good things from everywhere, be it from hindus or jews or christians or what not. Every religion/culture has something good. I am learning this truth only now (and i am in my mid-30s).


rgds,


Sridhar

He Said, She Said NEWS ANALYSIS


Pressure on Musharraf: Anti-West Forces Brew


By DEXTER FILKINS


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/15/international/asia/15ASSE.html


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, June 14 —In a country rife with extremism and anti-American rage, officials here not only fear new terrorist acts, they expect them.


Last month, after the suicide assault on May 8 in Karachi that killed 11 French workers and three others, Pakistani intelligence officials told President Pervez Musharraf that a number of the country`s most militant Islamic groups, including remnants of Al Qaeda, had agreed to join forces to launch fresh attacks against American targets.


The intelligence officials told General Musharraf, the military leader who has begun an uncertain campaign to neutralize the country`s Islamic extremists, that the survivors planned to stage another suicide bombing as an encore to the one on May 8.


With today`s deadly strike against the American consulate in Karachi, the prediction of Pakistani intelligence appears to have materialized. Pakistani officials suspect that the attack was carried out by a freshly minted coalition of militant organizations drawn from the remnants of extremist groups scattered during a crackdown General Musharraf ordered earlier this year.


The new coalition of militant groups is called Lashkar-e-Omar, formed by guerrilla fighters in January after leaders of several extremist groups had been arrested. Officials said the members of the coalition share a doctrinaire vision of Islam, a hatred of the West and, often, the common bond of having trained and fought in Afghanistan.


According to the Pakistani officials, Lashkar-e-Omar was formed by the survivors of three militant Islamic groups targeted by General Musharraf: Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Muhammad and the Sunni Muslim group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. While this last group is known for its sectarian attacks on Shiite Muslim groups, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad are committed to waging a holy war against non-Muslims.


The officials said the three Islamic groups, as well as stragglers from other militant organizations, reached an ``operational agreement`` to pool their resources and launch joint attacks.


The new coalition, Lashkar-e-Omar, drew its name and inspiration from Ahmed Omar Sheikh, the former leader of Jaish-e-Muhammad accused of masterminding the kidnapping and murder of the American journalist Daniel Pearl.


While a group calling itself Al Qanoon took responsibility tonight for the attack in Karachi, Pakistani officials said the claim appeared to mirror a common pattern of larger groups of militant guerrillas spinning off smaller units assigned to stage single attacks.


``There is near unanimity of opinion among intelligence officials that this is the work of the loose coalition of extremist jihadis,`` a senior Pakistani intelligence official said today, referring to Islamic holy warriors, adding that they have ``possible links to Al Qaeda.


``They want to frighten and drive out the foreigners from Pakistan and they want to scare the government into reversing its course,`` he said.


Since the Sept. 11 attacks, General Musharraf has sided strongly with the United States, abandoning support for the Taliban in Afghanistan and announcing a clampdown on radical Islamic groups in Kashmir.


If the officials are right, today`s attack in Karachi illustrates the difficulties in tracking the contortions of Pakistan`s militant groups, as well as the shortcomings of what critics regard as General Musharraf`s ambivalent effort to part ways with militants whom the Pakistani government long supported.


``There are so many forces that have been unleashed in the past months,`` said Talat Masood, a retired Pakistani Army general known for his moderate views. ``We are under pressure from all sides, and from within.``


After Sept. 11, General Musharraf came under intense international pressure to break with the Taliban, the extremist Islamic group whose rise to power in Afghanistan was engineered by the Pakistani intelligence agencies, and crack down on militants at home.


But since then, defeated Taliban and Qaeda fighters have poured in from Afghanistan, Pakistani militant groups have plotted to kill General Musharraf and India`s leaders have massed 700,000 troops on Pakistan`s borders for a possible attack.


Hence General Musharraf`s dilemma: to appease the West and his enemy to the east, he must infuriate the radicals at home.


By many accounts, General Musharraf embarked on a campaign fierce enough to enrage the extremist groups, but not determined enough to break them. The effort appears to have left him more vulnerable than ever before.


He had started off in dramatic fashion. In December, with the Indian Army bearing down on Pakistan`s border, Pakistani officials arrested nearly 2,000 militants, outlawed several militant organizations and froze their bank accounts.


According to an account in The Herald, an influential Pakistani magazine, a group of enraged militants plotted to assassinate General Musharraf on Christmas Day last year. The plot failed.


Yet for all the sensation caused by the crackdown, its fervor was short-lived. Of the 2,000 militants detained, some 1,800 have been released, including Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, the leader of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the militant group outlawed by Pakistan and declared a terrorist organization by the United States.


While General Musharraf promised to block the militants` forays into Indian Kashmir, the militants themselves said the Pakistani government did not finally block the infiltration until last month, when Indian military action seemed imminent. The action enraged Kashmiri militants, some of whom have sworn to kill General Musharraf.


As the Pakistani extremists were walking out of local jails, fighters were arriving from Afghanistan to join the struggle.


While many of the Taliban and Qaeda fighters are believed to have dispersed across the arid wastelands of Pakistan`s northwest frontier, many others are believed to have blended into the sweltering cities of Pakistan`s plains.


A Western diplomat interviewed earlier this week said elements of Al Qaeda appear to have played a role in the three previous terrorist attacks staged in Pakistan since the beginning of the year: the murder of American reporter Daniel Pearl, the grenade attack on a Protestant church in Islamabad that killed five people, and last month`s suicide attack on the French defense workers in Karachi.


The Qaeda fighters appear to have mixed with Pakistani militants dedicated to ending the Indian presence in Kashmir, the diplomat said.


``The trail goes back to Kashmir,`` he said.

He Said, She Said Re: Romair #22, Trojan Horse #45


Give this guy, SameerJB, a break. He is a self-hating man. He hates himself for being born to a Muslim family, and being born in Pakistan. His soul is trapped in a tin-can he cannot get out of. His consoles himself in his extremely narrowly drawn ethnicity of being a Punjabi, wishing himself that as an escape. That`s his only way out of the morass he finds himself in. He is not proud to be a Punjabi, he escapes to it. He cannot accept it and hence is dying inside for what he is born as. Keep harking back to being a Punjabi provides him with the opium he needs to survive in the body and the soul he`s trapped in. Give this guy a break. He will always hate himself for what he is, and he will never be happy, not in this life anyway.

Deja Vu Chowk editors:


not to belittle these newsworthy/political articles you keep on posting....but don`t you think there are enough news portals on the internet, enough news channels on TV.....enough political mumbo-jumbo we come across every day....enough South Asian politics on the net and elsewhere?


where are the other articles........i miss the Chowk that used to be a place where writers expressed their creative licenses.... and even though i couldn`t understand any of it, i miss the poetry.


even all the interacts are repetitive arguments coming from Indians and Pakistanis about the same old issues.


can we try and bring the old well rounded Chowk back?

He Said, She Said not_urstruly #4:

[…Who is in charge of the State of Pakistan?…]

This is the real conundrum or enigma.

First Karachi was rocked by ethnic violence, then shia doctors and professionals were targeted, now ‘foreigners’.

These faceless anachronistic kanjars masquerading as Muslims are not only the world-wide cause of abomination on Islam but also on insaniyat. May they burn in hell forever. But what good will it be for the innocent who died today?

Zeemax you said, “Who has to gain from all this? That`s the question, and a big one.”

While your question is valid I would probe beyond the obvious. To me this is one more indication of the sheer impotence of the military regime. They can and should be brought down by the civilians. Before the elections! The elections would be a charade.

rgds,

t

An Equal Reaction re: nag/shah/12-head

{So is Saddam great magician with T.V. & large banners worshiping him ..what you call that ?}

...fcuknut, why don`t you go to iraq and defend him?...

The Great Illusion YLH: Just out of curiosity, how are the elections looking? Who do you think is going to win? Some people are saying that like 1970, someone new may come up.

The Great Illusion re Harpreet & dos-mittar:

Sorry for confusing you guys-Mussamat Razia Batool exists but hasn`t been discovered yet....stay tuned for future sightings.

Harpreet:

What is Zadie Smith upto these days? I suspect Jhumpa still has a couple of good ones left in her but Zadie is done. Are you sure Stanley Kubrick is enjoying himself?

later

-sac

The Evolution of The Burqa dost-mittar #220 On indo-pak people-to-people relations, I was thinking of relations in real life, not on chowk. Within the subcontinent, the borders are sealed pretty tight - but the odd interactions that I have heard about are generally friendly: even soldiers lobbing shells at one another most of the year dont mind socializing and exchanging gifts on independence day. Outside the subcontinent, the first generation immigrants easily intermingle in universities, places of work and residence (the common language no doubt serving to grease communication).

The interesting question is, how come this smooth interaction is not carried over to chowk? Some reasons possible reasons and my views on them are (a) people fake it in real life, and the anonymity of chowk brings out their true views: I REJECT this possibility, since no one can fake it for very long in real life (or on chowk, as the J for Jalim example also illustrates). Also, most of the time there is nothing material to be gained or lost anyway by having good or bad relations in real life. (b) chowk attracts relatively more of those who come here with the express intent of tossing insults or with an agenda to promote hatreds from the safety of anonymity. This seems true for some posters I was complaining about (not all of them, and certainly not for the majority of chowk posters). (c) the ``written communication`` syndrome, whereby written communication is interpreted more harshly than face-to-face communication (due to the lack of body language to soften the impact, and also due to the perceived permanence of the written word - I read once about these psychological aspects of email correspondence and think it applies to chowk as well). I think a lot of the cycle of hostility results from this. Many individual posters whose childish insults I challenged on chowk have responded by saying that they are simply ``getting back`` to some poster from across the border.

The Evolution of The Burqa shammi #205 and dost mittar #204: Zia did a lot of malicious things. Therefore, to insert hate-filled messages in schools would not have been beyond him. I just have seen no evidence of that. I do agree though that schools should be a place of learning, including learning positive values. If things may now be going in the opposite direction in India, than that is certainly a step in the wrong direction.

And I certainly dont want to claim that in Pakistan there is not more - much more - that we need to do to make sure that school children grow up with a positive image of India and of Pakistan on both sides of the border. I think we can and should do a lot more.

One good way to do this would be to establish a scheme of ``sister schools`` whereby schools across the border are matched and exchange visits and so forth. The big stumbling block, even today, in Pakistan-India relations is not the people-to-people relations (which are fine by any standard), but poor relations at the government level.

The Evolution of The Burqa Dost Miter,

`On the other hand, if this was indeed true (and if I remember correctly, hamidm at one time also said something similar) then I wouldn`t regard is as mudslinging but simply a factual statement and a causal factor, perhaps, explaining some of the developments in Pakistan -`

Thanks for your comments. I was merely stating a fact.

The people who are differentiating between J and Z, the comments I saw on CNN was with Z for Zalim.