In Defense of The Left Sameer, my love:

I came to Chowk for a look. Saw the essay and wondered if it were JB! Good essay. Bravo!

Re.#44 Of course, it`s you!

I believe I have misunderstood the querstion you pose. The whole world, you included, knows the role and motives of Israel in creating and lavishly financing - in particular - the Hamas.

In fact, the equation of Osama [& al-Qaeda] and the CIA/US, with Israel and Hamas, is the keystone of most analyses and discussions dealing with the role/plight/dilemma of Israel and the US in the Middle East today.

Good to meet you after two years. [What a wonderful world! Sadna and YLH have met and visited during my absence!].

Ciao for now. Khuda Hafiz

He had no Choice! Re. Umairr #549; Gnostics #964

Biraderam: In my rather lengthy post #964 I had asked you a question which I reproduce below. I suspect it got burried in the length of the letter and didn`t come to your attention. I should be grateful if you would kindly give me an `in general` kind of information on the points in which I was interested.

Do please, by all means, ignore the `humour` in the question. It is not facetious at all, even though its tenor may have sounded differently to you than what I had intended it to mean.

Sincerely, Gnostic



Quote from #964

``I haven`t followed the discussion on the army`s job benefits and costs. [I can do that, though. I`ll start with the availability of an orderly, to begin with, and its equivalent cost in the civil life; housing, the pieces of land which have made just the officers from Kohat alone own more land in Sindh, than Bannu, Thal and Kohat, itself, combined! Go Figure; or figger].

When you left the army for a job ouside of it because you were better off out than in, then, logically, it is incumbent upon you to say why the ones who stayed in, did so? One-way explanations never qualify as explanations; pulling the wool over others` eyes, ingenuous (or even ingenious) statements, perhaps. But not `explanations.

Secondly, since you pique my curiosity, what was the educational quotient of your colleagues as compared to your own when you left?

And finally, why did you join the army to begin with? Is it because you looked ba`roub in the uniform? The desirable marriage partners were more favourably, (and favourable to boot; moneyed, with property, well educated, in upper reaches of the class structure; in other words, with the possibility of hypergamy) available?

Or, was it to serve the nation,

Or, to go for Jehad in the service of Islam,

Or,..., well, now you go ahead....``

Gnostic



bahmad #991

Dear Bilal Ahmad Sb.

In my post (#989) I had requested that if at all possible for you to do so, I should be grateful to receive from you information on the methodology of Khaled`s poll for arriving at the list of ten outstanding Pakistanis. Not only did I not succeed in finding their archives but found their site closed today for `construction`. This is unfortunate.

Sincerely, Gnostic[@Presidency.com]

P.S. ``Mulakra`` reminded me of the drama [Karachi PTV] in which the villagers arrange a ``mulakra`` between an England returned fellow and a local fellow by the name of `German`. I hope you remember that show.

He had no Choice!

First sent on December 29, 1999

Sameer #979,973; Gnostic #976

I am not sure whether our universe is within a black hole or not, but I do think our country is submerged in abysmal darkness. Or, to use ``the happy one```s expression, is shoved up where sun never shines. Whatever that means, one thing is clear, it`s dark in there.

So far as I am concerned, I feel drowned in an a`thah ocean of darkness. The `profundity of darkness` is ibaarat hai, firstly, by my own ignorance of things around and about me in Pakistan, and, secondly, by my inability to `understand` the meanings of the relational `paradigms` implied in the analyses of Pakistan. You and Zeemax have taught me, copiously, the meanings of such matters in the past. I hope you continue to do so also in the future.

On the surface, it appears that this muam`la (the Case!) will be stretched over the longest period of time. Whereas I am not able to fully comprehend the political implications of this modus operandi (not `invented` by the present clowns either, mind you), I can, if need be, expound on, in a sentence or two, the psychological affect it has on the population. In fact, there is a whole science built around this psychology, in law and sociology`s areas of Criminology.



In #973 I felt that you were confusing me with Mrs. XXYZ (Ms.? what`s the protocol? Tell me, or I`ll ask `Umairr`!).

You never confused me with Physics. But in one of your last two or three days` posts you did mention the possibility of the Mohtrima XXYZ`s being a physicist. I don`t know what physicists do but in my boyhood days I did see one, though. His name was, Rafi M. Chaudhry. When I worked on Victoria Street, behind the Civil Secretariat in Lahore, he had had established a Laboratory across the road from the Secretariat ; a High Tension Laboratory it was called. I don`t know what those people did in there but I always thought that high tension meant the wires on high pylons (towers) that carried 440volt electricity! Anyway they were doing some `high tension` work in there. But I digress.



What do you think of SHAZAD C`s communication to the jernail through his son? [//ZEEMAX//, this question is meant for you, too]. I hope he is not treated as was SanaAllah. Did you read that column? Horrendous, unGodly!





In response to a very early post of mine, or somebody else`s, you said that you had heard the ``...yar moonjhoun`` Kafi by, I forget whom, perhaps by Surriya Multaniker. Actually, Zahida Parveen was the singer of that Sindhi Kafi. Zahida was the mother of Shahida Parveen, who is a singer par excellence of `quasi-shudh` rag(a) Jai jai vanti. The only other person who is her match is (Ms.) Sahasrabuddhe ; originally, from Punjab or Madhya Pradesh, but settled in Pune now. Listen her sometime on [MP3.com] @ Asia, @ India, @ Pune. An absolute and pure delight.

There are many Kafi singers in Pakistan but there was only one Zahida Parveen. I was very sad to learn of her demise. I had met her. I hope you heard her rendition of Darbari.



Faiz`s early poetry was very simple and, for him, notoriously romantic:

Donoun jehaan teri muhabbat main haar kay,

Woh jaa rahaa hai koii shab-e-gham guzar kay

`Ik fursat-e-gunah milli, woh bhi char din

Dekhey hain hum nain housley Parwardigar kay` Or,

Bhooley say muskra to diyeea they woh aaj Faiz

Mat poochh walwale dil-e nakarda kar kay

%%%%%%%

Raat youn dil main tri khoii houii yaad aaii

Jaisey veeraney main chupkey sey bahar aa jaaey

Jaissey sehraoun main houley sey chaley bad-e-naseem

jaisey beemar ko be-wajeh qarar aa jaey`

Are we talking about the same Faiz? Maybe you started reading `Zandan Nama`, or, even `Dast-e-Saba`, rather than `Naqsh-e-Fariyadi` although `Dast` is also in easy urdu.

And yes, his father, Khan Bahudar Sultan Mohammad Khan, barrister, was Mir Munshi[i.e., Chief Vizir] in the Afghan Court of Amir AbdulRehman Khan, Wali-e Afghanistan. He was also Afghanistan`s ambassador to London.

--Eversince I came to this Board, 9 weeks ago, I have done nothing but agree with you. It`s almost embarrassing. Yet, you complain that I should agree with you at least once. SameerJB, yeh needling mujh pai asr andaz nahin ho gi. Iss liyeay keh main to pehley hii itna kuchh likh daita houn. (Ref. `Mirch masala` in your post to Assad_K). Aap ko patta hai that I spent my childhood in Delhi at Pul Bangash, Koocha Ballimaran, [seven or eight houses away, on a Y type of galli from Mirza Ghalib`s house], and on Roshan Ara Road. That`s why my name was not abbey `laddan`, (as perhaps was the Jernail`s), or arrey `jumman`, although this latter name was for the nauker paisha individuals.

As an adult I am to be found in the vicinity of the Golf Links.



bahmad

In your Post some time ago (Samir # 843; bahmad #853), you very kindly gave us a precis of Zohra Yusuf`s volume. There was a minor question which I didn`t feel comfortable in asking at the time: you mentioned `arohi` and `amrohi`. Was the `m` in the latter a typo? Or in Sindh it is referred to as you spelled it? Ordinarily it should be arohi and avrohi, also called `Antra` and `Asthaii`. But I have not heard `amrohi`. Khyal aghlab hai keh yeh `typo` hii thee, ya, thaa!

Also, in the type of rendition in which different singers sing in different `keys`, ( as in Western choruses?), are all the surs (in the sargam), sampuran?

-- krashid #975; bahmad #977

I can`t get hold of the August 13, `99 issue of `The Friday Times` in which ten distinguished individuals of Pakistan were mentioned. Can you send a copy of it to me at [Gnostic@Presidency.com] at your early convenience? I make this request for two reasons: One, I didn`t find a way to get to their archives. Secondly, I want to know what `method` was used to arrive at that list.

If it were only one person`s choice, then we could invite our participants here and/or elsewhere on this site to offer their choices and see the overlap and the size of the gamut.

I am going through the old writings in the Chowk (and leaving proof of my visit in some `replies`). Today I saw one dated 01.04.99, titled, `Honoring the Greats` by Altaf Anjum.

If you compare Khalid`s list with Anjum`s, you would probably see a 60-70 percent overlap [intibaq].

One thing that I noticed in the article, and in many `replies`, was the emphasis on cricketers. But I was surprised to see that there was mention only of the contemporary players, as if Pakistan had no history in the first 25 years of its existence. I hope people somebody remembers: Waqqar, Mahmood Hussain, Fazl Mahmood, Imtiaz, Kardar, Khan Mohammad? The only name from the early fifties` generation that I saw was Hanif Mohammad`s.



Krashid #975

krashid, I feel that there is a misunderstanding somewhere about Dr. AbdusSalam. Let me relate my information and experience. In my post yesterday or earlier I mentioned that he was in-charge of our tutorial Group in my year at the Government College, Lahore. Mian Siraj Din, the Principal, was a very nice man but somehow didn`t like a faculty member or two for whatever reasons. Professor Salaam was one of those. Another afwaah, also current, was that Siraj Din did not, or could not, provide the scientific appratus that Professor Abdussalam wanted. In any case Professor Salaam left Pakistan. In those days, an event that made everybody envy Professor Salaam. Since I never forgave Principal Siraj Din for the loss of my tutor, I used the expression `was thrown out` etc. in my post.

He went to the West at a time when ZaffarAllah Khan was the foreign minister of Pakistan and later represented Pakistan in the U.N. till the 1960s. I heard him in the General Assembly in 1961. Then he was a Judge of the World Court; again, as a Pakistani.

Dr. Salaam, during all this period was studying, conducting research, and receiving one honour after another. There was never any hesitation on his part to visit Pakistan nor a restriction on his entering the country. Even after Mr. Bhutto, to save his government adopted such childish measures as declaring Friday holidays, and in 1974, bowing to the Jamaat-e-Islami and declaring the Ahmadis as non-muslims, Dr. Salam remained in touch with us, encouraged us to form `Third World` Research Groups and Associations, helping Pakistanis` careers and so on. Of course, he didn`t remember me, but as a Pakistni, during meetings -get togethers - which we arranged as a group on his request or ours, on a trip of his etc., he would make it a point to ask for each one of us to meet with him in a get-together. This is how I missed him a few times. The word would come usually from Drs. Anwar Nasim or Hussain Sadr.

I would have to disagree with you categorically, that there was an element of religious prejudice that /affected/ him. Baaqi, diloun ka hal to sirf souchney waley hii jantey hain!



Baqi aainda

Gnostic

He had no Choice!

First sent on December 29, 1999

Sameer #979,973; Gnostic #976

I am not sure whether our universe is within a black hole or not, but I do think our country is submerged in abysmal darkness. Or, to use ``the happy one```s expression, is shoved up where sun never shines. Whatever that means, one thing is clear, it`s dark in there.

So far as I am concerned, I feel drowned in an a`thah ocean of darkness. The `profundity of darkness` is ibaarat hai, firstly, by my own ignorance of things around and about me in Pakistan, and, secondly, by my inability to `understand` the meanings of the relational `paradigms` implied in the analyses of Pakistan. You and Zeemax have taught me, copiously, the meanings of such matters in the past. I hope you continue to do so also in the future.

On the surface, it appears that this muam`la (the Case!) will be stretched over the longest period of time. Whereas I am not able to fully comprehend the political implications of this modus operandi (not `invented` by the present clowns either, mind you), I can, if need be, expound on, in a sentence or two, the psychological affect it has on the population. In fact, there is a whole science built around this psychology, in law and sociology`s areas of Criminology.



In #973 I felt that you were confusing me with Mrs. XXYZ (Ms.? what`s the protocol? Tell me, or I`ll ask `Umairr`!).

You never confused me with Physics. But in one of your last two or three days` posts you did mention the possibility of the Mohtrima XXYZ`s being a physicist. I don`t know what physicists do but in my boyhood days I did see one, though. His name was, Rafi M. Chaudhry. When I worked on Victoria Street, behind the Civil Secretariat in Lahore, he had had established a Laboratory across the road from the Secretariat ; a High Tension Laboratory it was called. I don`t know what those people did in there but I always thought that high tension meant the wires on high pylons (towers) that carried 440volt electricity! Anyway they were doing some `high tension` work in there. But I digress.



What do you think of SHAZAD C`s communication to the jernail through his son? [//ZEEMAX//, this question is meant for you, too]. I hope he is not treated as was SanaAllah. Did you read that column? Horrendous, unGodly!





In response to a very early post of mine, or somebody else`s, you said that you had heard the ``...yar moonjhoun`` Kafi by, I forget whom, perhaps by Surriya Multaniker. Actually, Zahida Parveen was the singer of that Sindhi Kafi. Zahida was the mother of Shahida Parveen, who is a singer par excellence of `quasi-shudh` rag(a) Jai jai vanti. The only other person who is her match is (Ms.) Sahasrabuddhe ; originally, from Punjab or Madhya Pradesh, but settled in Pune now. Listen her sometime on [MP3.com] @ Asia, @ India, @ Pune. An absolute and pure delight.

There are many Kafi singers in Pakistan but there was only one Zahida Parveen. I was very sad to learn of her demise. I had met her. I hope you heard her rendition of Darbari.



Faiz`s early poetry was very simple and, for him, notoriously romantic:

Donoun jehaan teri muhabbat main haar kay,

Woh jaa rahaa hai koii shab-e-gham guzar kay

`Ik fursat-e-gunah milli, woh bhi char din

Dekhey hain hum nain housley Parwardigar kay` Or,

Bhooley say muskra to diyeea they woh aaj Faiz

Mat poochh walwale dil-e nakarda kar kay

%%%%%%%

Raat youn dil main tri khoii houii yaad aaii

Jaisey veeraney main chupkey sey bahar aa jaaey

Jaissey sehraoun main houley sey chaley bad-e-naseem

jaisey beemar ko be-wajeh qarar aa jaey`

Are we talking about the same Faiz? Maybe you started reading `Zandan Nama`, or, even `Dast-e-Saba`, rather than `Naqsh-e-Fariyadi` although `Dast` is also in easy urdu.

And yes, his father, Khan Bahudar Sultan Mohammad Khan, barrister, was Mir Munshi[i.e., Chief Vizir] in the Afghan Court of Amir AbdulRehman Khan, Wali-e Afghanistan. He was also Afghanistan`s ambassador to London.

--Eversince I came to this Board, 9 weeks ago, I have done nothing but agree with you. It`s almost embarrassing. Yet, you complain that I should agree with you at least once. SameerJB, yeh needling mujh pai asr andaz nahin ho gi. Iss liyeay keh main to pehley hii itna kuchh likh daita houn. (Ref. `Mirch masala` in your post to Assad_K). Aap ko patta hai that I spent my childhood in Delhi at Pul Bangash, Koocha Ballimaran, [seven or eight houses away, on a Y type of galli from Mirza Ghalib`s house], and on Roshan Ara Road. That`s why my name was not abbey `laddan`, (as perhaps was the Jernail`s), or arrey `jumman`, although this latter name was for the nauker paisha individuals.

As an adult I am to be found in the vicinity of the Golf Links.



bahmad

In your Post some time ago (Samir # 843; bahmad #853), you very kindly gave us a precis of Zohra Yusuf`s volume. There was a minor question which I didn`t feel comfortable in asking at the time: you mentioned `arohi` and `amrohi`. Was the `m` in the latter a typo? Or in Sindh it is referred to as you spelled it? Ordinarily it should be arohi and avrohi, also called `Antra` and `Asthaii`. But I have not heard `amrohi`. Khyal aghlab hai keh yeh `typo` hii thee, ya, thaa!

Also, in the type of rendition in which different singers sing in different `keys`, ( as in Western choruses?), are all the surs (in the sargam), sampuran?

-- krashid #975; bahmad #977

I can`t get hold of the August 13, `99 issue of `The Friday Times` in which ten distinguished individuals of Pakistan were mentioned. Can you send a copy of it to me at [Gnostic@Presidency.com] at your early convenience? I make this request for two reasons: One, I didn`t find a way to get to their archives. Secondly, I want to know what `method` was used to arrive at that list.

If it were only one person`s choice, then we could invite our participants here and/or elsewhere on this site to offer their choices and see the overlap and the size of the gamut.

I am going through the old writings in the Chowk (and leaving proof of my visit in some `replies`). Today I saw one dated 01.04.99, titled, `Honoring the Greats` by Altaf Anjum.

If you compare Khalid`s list with Anjum`s, you would probably see a 60-70 percent overlap [intibaq].

One thing that I noticed in the article, and in many `replies`, was the emphasis on cricketers. But I was surprised to see that there was mention only of the contemporary players, as if Pakistan had no history in the first 25 years of its existence. I hope people somebody remembers: Waqqar, Mahmood Hussain, Fazl Mahmood, Imtiaz, Kardar, Khan Mohammad? The only name from the early fifties` generation that I saw was Hanif Mohammad`s.



Krashid #975

krashid, I feel that there is a misunderstanding somewhere about Dr. AbdusSalam. Let me relate my information and experience. In my post yesterday or earlier I mentioned that he was in-charge of our tutorial Group in my year at the Government College, Lahore. Mian Siraj Din, the Principal, was a very nice man but somehow didn`t like a faculty member or two for whatever reasons. Professor Salaam was one of those. Another afwaah, also current, was that Siraj Din did not, or could not, provide the scientific appratus that Professor Abdussalam wanted. In any case Professor Salaam left Pakistan. In those days, an event that made everybody envy Professor Salaam. Since I never forgave Principal Siraj Din for the loss of my tutor, I used the expression `was thrown out` etc. in my post.

He went to the West at a time when ZaffarAllah Khan was the foreign minister of Pakistan and later represented Pakistan in the U.N. till the 1960s. I heard him in the General Assembly in 1961. Then he was a Judge of the World Court; again, as a Pakistani.

Dr. Salaam, during all this period was studying, conducting research, and receiving one honour after another. There was never any hesitation on his part to visit Pakistan nor a restriction on his entering the country. Even after Mr. Bhutto, to save his government adopted such childish measures as declaring Friday holidays, and in 1974, bowing to the Jamaat-e-Islami and declaring the Ahmadis as non-muslims, Dr. Salam remained in touch with us, encouraged us to form `Third World` Research Groups and Associations, helping Pakistanis` careers and so on. Of course, he didn`t remember me, but as a Pakistni, during meetings -get togethers - which we arranged as a group on his request or ours, on a trip of his etc., he would make it a point to ask for each one of us to meet with him in a get-together. This is how I missed him a few times. The word would come usually from Drs. Anwar Nasim or Hussain Sadr.

I would have to disagree with you categorically, that there was an element of religious prejudice that /affected/ him. Baaqi, diloun ka hal to sirf souchney waley hii jantey hain!



Baqi aainda

Gnostic

He had no Choice! To all on the Chowk, and especially the friends on B. Musharraf`s and Z & N`s Boards best wishes and good thoughts for a very Happy and Auspicious 21st Century.

Gnostic and close friends

He had no Choice! Sameer #986

My dear Sameer:

Lash out at you?

Yeh Hawaii kisi dushman nain urraii ho gii [1]

You have no idea in how much respect do I hold you all, and particularly you and Zeemax; to an appreciable degree also Assad_K and Umairr, i.e., now that I have come to know them a bit better and their `handicaps` --hey friends, I josh. Surely. You understand.

Best wishes for the twenty first century. And if you believe that the M-III is also starting on the first, then a Very Happy New Millennium. At the end of the millennium you will see that my wishes were sincere and they came to fruition. Aazmaish shart hai.

Tabedar (rhymes with subedar)

Gnostic

[1] The Chowk has not included my other letter. Seems as if the ``Chowk `suntries``` hammari, aapki larraii krwa ker hi dum laiengai!

He had no Choice! Umairr-Sameer [on Z & N Board. 30.12.99]

When you are done lamenting the fate of children of army majors and colonels, and the amount of taxes you paid, I shall raise questions about other ``Chidren of a Lesser God``, and ask you the extent of knowledge about how many jobs did you create with your taxes and what do you know the elementary economics. Words eg., simple, simplistic and simpleton come to mind appropos of unrelated things. In part, it may be because my formal education is nill, none, nada, compared to yours. Should that sound attractive enough to you, I should suggest you re-read Bertrand Russel`s autobiography; at least the first few chapters of vol.1

Umairr`s stay in the armed forces is his excuse for his inability to understand ``Kulsoom``, what is yours, Sameer? Or, has your, both of yours, stay in the U.S. of A., blinded you to any situation other than Bill and Hillary Clinton?

[And please do not start waving the B.B. & Zardari alliance flag in my face; do it advisedly, if you must.]



I shall be in touch when I have the opportunity. At this time things around me, unfortunately, are not in my control.

He had no Choice! Sameer #973

Part of our contemporary accepted wisdom maintains that our entire universe could itself be in a black hole. Should this be the case, the istaghasa is going to maintain that the sound on the Black Box tapes has been `sucked` by the immeasurably intense gravity.

I say this because I learned a few years ago that in Peshawer schools, 7th grade children were being taught science in which, in answer to a question as to how the birds fly, the answer was, ``yeh, Khuda ki Qudrat se urtey hain``. Try and explain it otherwise.

Well, the voice on the Black Box Tapes disappeared due to Allah Ki Qudrat. Now try and disprove it in the court!

We deserve a medal, indeed, if we don`t grow horns to set ourselves apart from the rest of (inferior) humanity.

Massacre of a Language Bibi ji, aap urdu ko goli marain. Just continue to dismember English language`s syntax, composition, grammar, paradigms and various other rules.

Wassalam,

Gnostic

He had no Choice! Assad_K #966

It was very sad to think anew of the deaths of the three good individuals of Pakistan. I happened to know all three of them. Dr. Salam was my `tutor` (Tutorial Groups!!)for a couple of months way back then before he was `thrown out` of Pakistan. In recent years we missed each other by a few hours or a day but communication was in place. Eqbal Ahmad (and Firoz Ahmad) were contemporaries although Firoz was much more in contact. Eqbal`s younger brother, Saghir, was a much closer friend. I knew Akhtar Hamid Khan through his younger brother who was Allama Mashriqi`s son-in-law. And through my Mohtram and respected friend, Dr. Aquila Kiani, who was very proud of the fact that Hameed sb. had named one of his nazms to/for her! I will, at a future occasion, say a word or two about Hameed sahib after I double check it in my papers. But you are right. It is sad. And I am confident that one may become maudlin at such loses; one after the other in quick succession. But,

Assad_K, if you and I are true of heart, diligent workers, are honest, civil and kind and empathetic to people around us, then why raise the question that you do at the end of your post? WE ARE THEM: THE GREAT PEOPLE. WE ALL ARE. Never short change yourself if you are true to yourself, to your country and to humanity at large. These are the hallmark of greatness. If we possess the characteristics I mention above then we are it. Great poeople are made of no special, designer, genes. They too are like you and I, and Zeemax, and Sameer, and bahmad, and Bashir Syed, provided we possess the above characteristics.

Very Sincerely yours,

Gnostic



SameerJB:

Was good to know that somebody remembered that I was not `in evidence` for a few days. I was busy in this same b`kherra. We shall talk about it in better times.

`Watne diyan... .` was good to be reminded of. Faiz sb. read it at my place and a friend of mine who is in the Gulf area, separated from his family, cried like a child. I Should write something about and on Faiz Sb., one of these days. There is a background to his saying a few nazms in Punjabi and one in Hyderabadi Urdu. I shall share it sometime.

Sincerely yours,

Gnostic





TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

Could/would/does somebody have an idea why do we not see anybody from the U.K., in these posts? Does Chowk have exposure there? It was good to have input from the U.K., since my experience informs me of a different, and often brainy and refreshing ideas from there.

He had no Choice! Gnostic# 962, ( In Z&N: Zeemax #547,SameerJB #548, Umair #549)

Since I seem to be the only one left on this Board, I think I shall write myself another post:

I share Zemax`s (#547)concern about the four articles ant their forums/boards. Early on, VERY early on, when Bilal M`s article was taken off the front page (Home), it was requested that in view of the circumstances and the severity of seriousness accompanying them, it would be desirable to somehow leave a link of some sort for that article on the Home page. But it was not done. Zia and Nayyar`s contribution has met the same fate, and the rest will soon bite the same dust as the ones before.

SameerJ.B.`s solution reminds me of a Lahori story: A young fellow, an apprentice of sorts, asked the local wise man how to catch a stork/flamingo. The ustad ji said that `Putra aeh koii mamooli kum naieen. But still, what you do is this. Take a candle, light it and approach the bugla from behind, don`t even breathe, stealthily approach it and stick the candle on the stork`s head. After a while the molten wax will slide down over the stork`s head and blind him. Then you just go and catch the stork!`

At this the apprentice asked, `ustad ji, why not catch him when one goes to place the candle on the stork`s head?`, to which the ustad ji replied, `oh, bevqoofaaa, tey oudhey wichh fair ustaadi keeh hoii?`

Sameer advises to bookmark the site. Khoob, bahoot khoob. Sameer, for a person as I, every thing under the sun is on the bookmark, since I am so new to the computer that even the barcode price tag is still on it. I don`t remove it lest there be a relationship between it and the `drive`. Prior to this the only `Drive` I knew was the word on the gearbox settings on the car in which Farkhanda drives me about occasionally.

But to get back to the bookmark. It takes more time to get the forum through it than if you went to it via Bathinda!

I feel that if Rehan Ansari`s piece can stay out there on the home page since, for me, the world began, then the Pakistani debacle piece(s) could also stay there.

HOWEVER, if the webmasters/owners/operators/M.D.`s started listening to us, [the readers, the writers, the users], they could be accused of, and typed/branded as, practicing `democracy`. Now, SameerJB., are you making fun of us!



Umairr #549

Since my background in the Pakistani military is as impeccable and authentic as anybody`s - if not more - I was surprised to read the first two lines of your post. At which time I stopped reading further.

Let`s see our army`s high points:

1. In 1965, we `gained` 350sq. miles of Indian territory in Kashmir and Khem Karan area. Lost 1200 sq. miles in the southwest next to rann of Kutch. Had to go to Tashkand and our noses were rubbed in it.

2. 1971. East Pakistan. The less said, the better. [ I have been reading the posts in this area. I had kept quiet since the energies and time of Pakistanis was being made to be spent on ten different `fronts`, in the process of which many friends got involved in settling the Kashmir problem in these forums. The saving grace offered was that these were the only places where people could interact from both sides of the border. I /know/ that the Kashmir issue was being settled only by one side of the border. How do I know it? /I/ just know it. If you have doubts about it watch the next ten, fifteen, fifty years. You`ll get the proof of the veracity of my claim.

In the East Pakistan fiasco the regular Indian

army infiltrators, and later, the Mukti Bahni, taught in `regular clases` by the Indian regulars (infiltrators, as well as on Indian soil), as to how to spread fear, hatred, wreake havock there, did so. Our own women, my family`s, were killed, raped, disfigured, dragged in such numbers that you would never imagine. [ If certain Reports are made public, you will go out of you mind to learn the details.

The army, given the conditions, didn`t do as badly as we have been made to believe. BUT, they could have done much better given morale and organized leadership. But certainly not a feather in their cap].

3. ?

Fatuhaat:

1. Pakistan 1958-59

2. Pakistan 1968

3. Pakistan 1977

4. Pakistan 1999

Not an unimpressive record, is it?

I haven`t followed the discussion on the army`s job benefits and costs. [I can do that, though. I`ll start with the availability of an orderly, to begin with, and its equivalent cost in the civil life; housing, the pieces of land which have made just the officers from Kohat alone own more land in Sindh than Bannu, Thal and Kohat combined! Go Figure; or figger].

When you left the army for a job ouside of it because you were better off out than in, then, logically, it is incumbent upon you to say why the ones who stayed in, did so? One way explanations never qualify as explanations; pulling the wool over others` eyes, ingenuous (or even ingenious) statements, perhaps. But not `explanations.

Secondly, since you pique my curiosity, what was the educational quotient of your colleagues as compared to your own when you left?

And finally, why did you join the army to begin with? Because you looked ba`roub in the uniform, the desirable marriage partners were more favourably, (and favourable; moneyed, with jaidad, in upper reaches of the class structure; in other words, with the possibility of hypergamy) available?

Or, was it to serve the nation,

Or, to go for Jehad in the service of Islam,

Or, now you go ahead.......

Gnostic

He had no Choice! re. Many previous posts of recent and earlier vintage.

The following two items are not only for your tafannan-e-tab`aa (manuranjanjan, if you are hooked on Indian movies), but for some poignant lesson/s.

1. I feel like a mosquito in a nudist colony. I know what to do but don`t know where to start!

2. There was this fellow in Karachi ( Lahore, Islamabad, Gujranwala, Sukkhar, Jehlum, Quetta, Hyderabad) squatting on the sidewalk and crying. A passerby stopped and asked him why was he crying. The fellow said that he was the victim of a cruel act.

``You see,`` he said, `` I was sitting here minding my own business, when a car stopped by. A gentleman peered out of its window and asked me if I would like to join him in dinner. Now, I was hungry and without much money, so I said that I would.

He, then, took me to his bungalow where a sumptuous dinner was had. I enjoyed it and ate to my heart`s content. So far so good, but then he forcibly sodomized me and that`s why I am crying``. The passerby consoled him and advised him not to trust everybody who comes along and that to use one`s commonsense and discretion was a great virtue.

A few days later this passerby comes along and sees this same fellow, crying again. So he asks him what was the matter this time. The crying fellow says, ``It`s the same story, you see! This same fellow in the car took me home , fed me as before and forcibly sodomized me again. That`s why I am crying. A great cruelty and injustice has been done to me sir.`` The passerby asked him that if he already had an unpleasant experience before why did he not refuse the carwalla`s invitation? At which the squatter looked at the passerby with disdain and said,

``Junnab, murrawat bhi koii shaey hoti hai aakhir!``

The first indicates the dilemma posed by XXYZ and touched by Zeemax Sameer, and Dua`go. We have a problem at our hands but so much of it(vast?)that we don`t know from where to start! The totality of the problem may just be impossible to deal with all at the same time; but only in bits and pieces; nickel and dimes, as you b`desheis say.

The second one is more serious. Our nation gets screwed with monsoon like frequency by the army. When the world at large looks askance at us, or by a few wise individuals within the country, the answer from the nation, in general, is ``Junab murrawat bhi koii shaey hoti hai aakhir!``

Hor Choopo!!

More to follow.

Gnostic

He had no Choice! Zeemax #954

You should be in a state of mind in which Ghalib said:

Mushkilain mujh per praieen itni keh aa`saan ho gaieen

Still, jumhuriat_ asked for aresponses at his personal address. Don`t respond yet, if you are busy.

Sameer is only dealing with the question of relevant variables that go into an explanation and those which are `non-relevant` to it. Again, a matter directly related to one pointed out by Mrs. XXYZ. From what I know of theory construction, the black box is a `relevant` variable, and should be dealt with by all of us.

On the matter of the black box being blank I have been in touch with the High Commissions of Pakistan in the U.K. and Canada, and the Pakistani embassy in the States; plus a letter to the Dawn. These are only the beginnings.

I have been thinking that some of us, who agree, should get in touch with the mass media outlets, world Air Control bodies, IATA, World Civil Aviation/Control Agencies, World `Justice` agencies, to protest these shenanigans of the arms of the government (Black box not having a taping of conversation), while in the custody of the police! for example.

As a drastic measure a law suit or two could be launched against the Mutt in Pakistani and International courts.

Please advise. I can say one thing though. Writing in this forum is not going to accomplish anything unless it is combined with other measures.

Zeemax, you know, you are not alone in this. Others also have the same concerns on their minds. What is lacking is the concerted action of some practical consequence.

Gnostic

He had no Choice! Re. 950

I join in sending my most sincere wishes to the Prime Minister on his birthday. Many happy returns of the day in good health and happiness.

I also wish that he is tried, whenever, in a regular civil court.

Gnostic

He had no Choice! krashid#867,879 and Gnostic #862,879

I just thought that I should bring posts # 29 and 31 on the Ghazali (Hegemony... .) Board, to your attention.

I wrote a very long post to you tonight which was, of course, meant for all friends on this Board, but I was very pained to see it disappear in front of my eyes! Six hours` work gone just like that.

Perhaps, one of these days I may muster enough courage to redo it.

Till we meet next, I wish you the best and good thoughts.

Sincerely,

Gnostic

He had no Choice! krashid No.867; Gnostics #862

I am afraid I am still thinking about the manshoor by Zeemax. It requires very careful analysis and I am, unhappily, a slow person. I haven`t even been able to give my reaction to Zemax regarding it. However, please be assured that I shall get back to your post as, of course, I will to Zeemax regarding his Manshoor.

I am myself most interested in this issue. In the meantime please let us know your reaction to other parts of the Manshoor.

Respectfully,

Gnostic