Peace in South Asia

PS: The seat is in the Khushab district. I will give you the details as soon as the situation becomes clear... there is much confusion here right now.

Peace in South Asia

Dear Veeresh,

Which email address did you send me on? Because I didn`t get your email. I will check again though ...

I wouldn`t describe the Monsoon as exactly failed though... there has been some rain, not necessarily in greater Lahore area but in most of Punjab, therefore the problem of the crops is not that serious from what I gather.

The elite usually doesn`t worry about these things... it doesn`t affect their life. It is the poor man who is made to pay.

-YLH

Peace in South Asia

Shammi,

Thankyou for that wonderful quote, and other advice about the website. I am searching for the password to make the necessary changes.

I agree with you about how peace will be achieved... it is the military in Pakistan which bears the responsibility of the war scenarios in South Asia, though it might be `peace-mongering` right now. Its not that your military is more angelic, or ours is less so, but your Military has been kept in its place under check by the rule of Law...

Peace between Pakistan and India will achieved if we, Pakistanis, realize the following:

1) Democracy is the key.

2) Pakistan was supposed to a Muslim majority version of its big brother ie India.

India can help by talking on Kashmir, but that is your side of the deal.

As per your reply to Romair, I agree that Jinnah`s greater fear must have been the theocrats siezing power in a Muslim Pakistan. This is why most of his statements are dedicated to this topic after independence.

Prem,

``Jinnah remains important to Pakistanis as a key symbol. Pakistani secularists derive a great deal of power from that symbol. If you think of Pakistani secularists as your friends (believe you me, they are far closer friends to you than religious nuts of various hues in our own country), then you may consider being more respectful toward Jinnah. You don`t have to agree with what Jinnah did, but then we don`t agree with a lot of what our various elders/forefathers did. For the wise, disagreement does not have to mean mutual disrespect.``

I agree with that sentiment. A few days back I had a conversation with my compatriot Ms. Sarwari in which she and I agreed that the Gandhians in India were far greater friends of us Pakistani secularists than the Mullahs... We came to a conclusion, that while we may disagree with some of the things Gandhi did and said, we need not be disrespectful to him. If Jinnah could tell the gentleman from New York that Gandhi was the greatest friend of the Muslims in India, who are we to dispute it anyway. This already has a general agreement amongst the like minded Pakistanis as is obvious from the posts of tahmed, romair, and others here.

-YLH

Peace in South Asia Sigalph

``so will our kids someday.``

Not with the Nationalist and ideological histories taught to the children of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh by the BJPs, Jamaat-e-Islamis, Awami Leagues and the Military Dictators...

I am afraid instead our histories will produce more cpothiks, harimaus and zia ul haqs.... the Pakistan, Bangladesh and India, Myself, you and people like Arundhati dream off will never come ... unless ofcourse we replace these myths with the facts ... now!

-YLH

Peace in South Asia Ladies and gentlemen,

Do we really need this kind of unprovoked and childish name-calling nonsense as spouted by Harimau in 223 and 224?

`You Idiot`

`Salwar`

`Bakra`

`stupid`

Haven`t we had enough of this nonsense? Where are the sanctimonious defenders of decency now? especially aNny, Saima Shah and Samina Shah? This is how I am always forced to start ... but now I am `giving peace a chance`... :)

Harimau,

(Who appointed Mike Moore the final arbiter of history?)

And who appointed you the final arbiter of History? Also kindly inform us which God spoke to you directly to give you such indepth into the thinking of long dead human beings?

By the way don`t you think you might be capable of writing atleast one post without petty insults? The point my dear Harimau is that Bhutto didn`t say Pakistan would build the bomb unilaterally like you are trying to insinuate. He said `If India builds the bomb` only then. Whatever point you are trying to prove gets beaten by simple logic, as well as the esoteric nonsense you are trying to restart with Hodson whom you excel in misquoting. As for your assertion that Pakistani Military always wanted the Bomb... Well I am not a judge of intentions, but I know that Pakistan started its nuclear program after 1974, and didn`t test a nuclear weapon until 1998 ... some 24 years after India`s first nuclear test.

You backed out of your earlier lie by declaring falsefuly that I claimed Bhutto made that statement in 1974... I am still waiting for you to show me where I said that. The truth is that you don`t have an argument do you Harimau?? Instead of resorting to your usual insults, ranting etc... how about you reflect on your sad behavior?

How old are you anyway?

Sigalph,

My uncle has filed his nomination papers for provincial assembly seats for these elections...

As for me maybe next time... :) Election activity is on the full swing... I am having a lot of fun.

Jamhooriat Paindabad...

(Very true about the fact that history, when written without the proximity to our emotions, will record Pandit Nehru as the true trigger behind the creation of Pakistan.)

Exactly... the ultimate objective of the entire movement, as has appeared through evidence much later, was the creation of a Confederated South Asia with three autonomous Units with independent legislatures, with equal representation at the center. That was achieved through the cabinet mission plan, which was then accepted by the Muslim League.

-YLH

Peace in South Asia Sigalph,

I think I mentioned this before but let me say this again. Another thing our two great heroes Mohammed Ali Jinnah and Mustapha Kemal Ataturk had in common was Winston Churchill, that great statesman of the 20th century.

Though Churchill lost his position in admiralty due to the defeat at Galipolli, he lobbied in favor of Kemal Ataturk and the Turkish Republic in the 1920s... Later when the British Labour Government was extremely hostile to Mohammed Ali Jinnah, it was Churchill who had stood for Jinnah alone against opposition from all of the British politicians.

Is it any wonder that the last advice to Muslims by Allama Iqbal was to `Pray for Mustapha Kemal Ataturk, and Quaid e Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, for the Muslims still need them`?

-YLH

Peace in South Asia Sarwari,

People like Cpothik are people more motivated by their own personal political biases rather than actual historical facts. Another example of this was obviously harimau, who hasn`t bothered to respond to our questions about his selective misquoting of the famous Bhutto speech.

Pakistan Movement like the Congress`s movement was not a homogenous movement... Just like the Congress, the league too had its fair share of socialists, capitalists, secularists, theocrats Bourgeoise, proletariat and land lords... unfortunately people like to generalize... they forget that in Punjab and Sindh for example, the Leaguers were pitted against the Land lords themselves who formed the Unionist party.

I loved your reference to Mian Iftikharuddin... what a great man ... he was also the brain behind the `Pakistan Times`, and the man who brought Faiz Ahmed Faiz to the forefront by appointing him as the first editor of the Socialist left wing `Pakistan Times`.

If C-pothik is indeed a Bengali as he claims to be then we are now seeing the culmination of Awami League`s long and hard efforts at re-writing history. Thankfuly we have enough sane minds in Bangladesh like Mr.Sigalph who counter these people every chance they get.

-YLH

Peace in South Asia cpothic,

I really don`t wish to argue with someone devoids facts like you. Before you advise me to read more about Kemal Ataturk, read some more yourself.

Sigalph,

Well said. Thanks for putting Cpothic in his place. You are absolutely right ofcourse. Many Historians, including one as eminent as Bernard Lewis have compared Mohammed Ali Jinnah with Kemal Ataturk. India`s famous M J Akbar calls Jinnah the `Indian Ataturk`. Hector Bolitho compared Jinnah with Ataturk as well... Many Turks make favorable comparisons in this regard.

(I personally don`t agree... Jinnah was a much more humane and idealistic human being than Kemal Ataturk. Jinnah lacked the rogue tactics that Kemal might be prone to using to achieve his goals)

Even if he was an atheist, Ataturk didn`t hate Islam (atleast the Islam that I follow). His battle cry during the War of Independence was based on Islam... infact one can argue that Ataturk appealed to Islam during his struggle much more than Jinnah did in his. Kemal`s constant references to Islamic unity (and Jihad) are well known... the Turk Nationalism if you closely is based on the territorial muslim nationalism, a concept similar to the Indo-Muslim nationalism which Jinnah espoused. Kemal Ataturk infact tried to Turkify Islam for a very long time..

What Kemal Ataturk (and indeed Jinnah) didn`t believe in was the usage of obscurantist and backward versions of religion to infringe on the working of the Modern Secular state. Both men believed that there should be a separation of Church and state in Turkey and Pakistan... ofcourse Kemal Ataturk was a Military dictator who was able to force his people to do so. Jinnah died early. Both Jinnah and Ataturk shared the passion of modernizing their people... and this makes them unique in the History of the Muslim World.

-YLH

Peace in South Asia

To learn more about Mohammed Ali Jinnah:

My website

http://www.majinnah.cjb.net

Jinnah Society`s Website

http://www.majinnah.com.pk

Peace in South Asia

Krashid,

In response to your question about secularism and its contradiction with Pakistan`s ideology.. here is Begum of Bhopal`s reminisce about what Pakistan was supposed to be... I am emphasizing the necessary portions in CAPS:

http://www.majinnah.com.pk/html_files/princess_sultan.htm

Princess Abida Sultan of Bhopal - Mr. Jinnah as I knew him

Mr. Jinnah does not need any introduction from an individual like me, who prefers to remain away from politics and public life. However, there is a point which appears to be ignored or purposely distorted and confused when some people project him as a theocratic dictator, nor did he support Mulla`ism nor did he intend Pakistan to be anything other than a secular democracy. This point came up very often during the discussions that were held between my father and Mr. Jinnah and at which I had to sit as an observer. The reason mainly used to be, the frequent fatwas of kufr issued by the mullas against Mr. Jinnah. Mr. Jinnah’s views and my father’s views were identical. Both believed and supported SECULAR DEMOCRACY and although Bhopal were practising Muslims who were very sincere about their religious duties and functions, yet there is not a single case which can be quoted to prove, that Bhopal state imposed Islam either on its Muslim subjected or was prejudiced against its non-Muslim people. Therefore, those of us who migrated to Pakistan, CAME TO PAKISTAN UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT IT WOULD BE A SECULAR DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY, but unfortunately during the last fifty years of Pakistan’s sovereignty, the entire concept of Mr. Jinnah’s theories and policies has been shamelessly distorted, confused and mutilated.

Princess Abida Sultaan of Bhopal

April 1999

Peace in South Asia PS: Replace `who` with `which` after `free thinking liberal channels` in the last post.

Peace in South Asia Layman,

I would rather you not try and read more into my statement... I haven`t changed a bit... the environment has changed as have the priorities. As far as my founder of the nation is concerned, my respect for him has grown not decreased... though the statement `I made Pakistan through my typewriter` was a gross overestimation of his own abilities and I admit that he was wrong there. He was human like the rest of us.

Now coming to our Tinpot... for the record I never said `Long Live Musharraf`...

My slogans were `Pakistan Zindabad, Quaid e Azam Zindbad, Kemal Ataturk Zindabad, Jiye Bhutto, and Imran Khan for PM`. I still believe in the first three Zindabads... but about the last two I have reservations.

With that said Musharraf has brought a lot of good things to Pakistan... Pakistan is experiencing a media revolution... channels are sprouting all over Pakistan.. free thinking liberal channels who excel at criticize Musharraf. However on the issue of Constitutional amendments he is wrong.. and so I call him so.

Just for Layman:

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

Kemalism Zindabad

Sincerely

-YLH

Peace in South Asia

PS: Frankly I find it amazing that a certain senior uncle from across the border are correcting me on dates about a certain Bhutto quote, when I neither mentioned a quote, nor a date.

For those who can read English:

``Yet I am also aware that it was a popularly elected government in India that carried out the first nuclear bomb test in 1974. It was an elected government in Pakistan that responded by initiating a nuclear program of its own.``

Peace in South Asia Dearest Harimau

``Yasser, dear boy, you said Bhutto made that statement after India tested its first bomb in 1974 and I corrected you on that date.``

Please Show me where I said this? It seems to me that you are now trying to back out of the argument, so you are resorting to your normal tactic ie lying and more lying.

I`ll tell you what happened here... You deliberately misquoted Bhutto`s statement in which he said quite clearly that in the event of India getting a nuclear bomb, Pakistan would make one too at any cost... You made it seem like he said that Pakistan would make the bomb unilaterally.. Now that I have proved you wrong, you seem to be left with no choice but to lie.

It seems that this is a standard pattern with you when it comes to intellectual arguments... you followed the exact same pattern in your misquotings of Hodson.

``With your stick and balls?``

Typical !

Sincerely

YLH

Peace in South Asia

Zafar Bhai,

The point is that if I had my way in Pakistan, there would be no Hudood laws etc. I made it absolutely clear that I don`t stand for any parallel laws and legal systems ... however, I do appreciate the strict evidence requirements practically eliminate the risk of stoning to death for orgiasts or fornicators... The hitch was the law of evidence in case of rape... which was settled by Federal Shariat Court by accepting the claim of the victim on its face value.

I don`t ascribe to any notions of society-policing of sexual behavior between consenting adults... however, I have lived in enough countries to know that rudimentary laws exist... In New Jersey for example the law on the books is that physical act of Sodomy is illegal ... Do you think that law is enforceable?

-YLH

Peace in South Asia

Dear Gospel of the truth:

``Yasser dear boy I love the way you ignore the facts. Bhutto said that Pakistanis will eat grass rather than go without the nuclear bomb in 1965``

Sir Actually you are the one (as usual may I add) who is ignoring the facts my dear... as per the ailment you suffer from you have quoted Zulfikar Ali Bhutto wrong.. As hawkish as Bhutto might have been he said:

``If India builds the bomb we will eat grass or leaves, even go hungry, but we will get one of our own.``

It is the same old same old with Harimau, selective quoting, and no logical sense.

Howz that?

Clean bowled eh?

-YLH