What it means to be me in Corporate America?
“YLH#231
You are one of the best posters on Chowk when you can keep your emotions under control.
Keep it up!”
Thankyou for the compliment. More often than not though, our friends from your side don’t give me a chance to keep my emotions under control.
Sadna,
By the way can you show me where Emma Duncan says she has a soft spot for Pakistan?
As far as the illegal immigrants are concerned… I am sorry I really can’t distinguish between a North Indian, or a South Indian, or a Marathi, or a Gujurati. They all look the same to me. I was informed that a lot of Rajistanis are living in Pakistan… does that help? I mean is it really that hard to believe that out of a 1 billion Indians many of whom are desperately poor, some would wanna take advantage of the ‘Local America’? As a Human Being I welcome them, but then don’t spit on our face. Jis thali mein khaten hain us mein ched nahin karte.
Your denial of RAW’s terrorist activities in Karachi is almost as realistic as my denial of ISI’s involvement in Kashmir. For the record I don’t think either RAW or ISI were involved in the recent attacks in Karachi, Kashmir or Dehli… those attacks are a part of a well planned conspiracy to take two nuclear powers, friendly to the US, to war. But RAW and ISI have been actively involved in the destabilization of Pakistan and India in the past.
As for the withdrawal of Pakistani troops… I think you are again avoiding the question. First of all the question might be of ‘which troops’? Secondly the Azad Kashmir government is a democratically elected autonomous government in an ‘ilhaq’ with Pakistan. Thirdly Pakistan would have withdrawn if guaranteed that India was ever serious about holding a plebiscite.Your statement: “So the resolutions are not enforceable either in letter or in spirit or practically, unless Pakistan militarily takes over J&K. Good luck to its continued endeavor to do so and sink itself”…. Shows that you are inherently incapable of looking beyond the narrow national interest that you have imagined. Let me inform you of a little fact. Kashmiris don’t want to be with India… that is pretty clear and accepted. They hate you. They hate your occupation. This is without Pakistan in the equation. Whatever excuses you might come up with these are the facts on the ground and you can’t suppress the will of the people for very long. You are no moderate, you are an in the closet BJP supporter. That’s what you are.
And now I read your Answer CLEARLY like the day : ‘India doesn’t hold a plebiscite in Kashmir because Kashmiris won’t choose India, and we in India, despite our sanctimonious garbage about being the largest democracy in the World, are not ready to grant Kashmiris their democratic right of self determination of their destiny and future, the right that the British granted our own founding fathers, the right to liberty and freedom. Because essentially we are of a Nazi mindset unable to compromise or realize that writs are established not by suppression but by the acceptance of the will of the people’.
And please don’t make another scapegoat out of Pakistan… really this is really boring… ‘If India is bad, Pakistan is worst’ is not the kind of logic you wanna put across to defend India. Pakistan might be more horrible, nay lets say Pakistan IS more horrible, but then Pakistan hasn’t made any sanctimonious claims to be the largest democracy in the world either. We are a lot of things, but we are not hypocrites, and the Military-ruled-Islamic-Republic-of-Pakistan is what it is for the world to see, unlike the claimants of Secular Democracy in our region.
-YLH
Posted by
ylh
Aug 3, 2002 09:19 pm
dost-mittar “YLH#231
You are one of the best posters on Chowk when you can keep your emotions under control.
Keep it up!”
Thankyou for the compliment. More often than not though, our friends from your side don’t give me a chance to keep my emotions under control.
Sadna,
By the way can you show me where Emma Duncan says she has a soft spot for Pakistan?
As far as the illegal immigrants are concerned… I am sorry I really can’t distinguish between a North Indian, or a South Indian, or a Marathi, or a Gujurati. They all look the same to me. I was informed that a lot of Rajistanis are living in Pakistan… does that help? I mean is it really that hard to believe that out of a 1 billion Indians many of whom are desperately poor, some would wanna take advantage of the ‘Local America’? As a Human Being I welcome them, but then don’t spit on our face. Jis thali mein khaten hain us mein ched nahin karte.
Your denial of RAW’s terrorist activities in Karachi is almost as realistic as my denial of ISI’s involvement in Kashmir. For the record I don’t think either RAW or ISI were involved in the recent attacks in Karachi, Kashmir or Dehli… those attacks are a part of a well planned conspiracy to take two nuclear powers, friendly to the US, to war. But RAW and ISI have been actively involved in the destabilization of Pakistan and India in the past.
As for the withdrawal of Pakistani troops… I think you are again avoiding the question. First of all the question might be of ‘which troops’? Secondly the Azad Kashmir government is a democratically elected autonomous government in an ‘ilhaq’ with Pakistan. Thirdly Pakistan would have withdrawn if guaranteed that India was ever serious about holding a plebiscite.Your statement: “So the resolutions are not enforceable either in letter or in spirit or practically, unless Pakistan militarily takes over J&K. Good luck to its continued endeavor to do so and sink itself”…. Shows that you are inherently incapable of looking beyond the narrow national interest that you have imagined. Let me inform you of a little fact. Kashmiris don’t want to be with India… that is pretty clear and accepted. They hate you. They hate your occupation. This is without Pakistan in the equation. Whatever excuses you might come up with these are the facts on the ground and you can’t suppress the will of the people for very long. You are no moderate, you are an in the closet BJP supporter. That’s what you are.
And now I read your Answer CLEARLY like the day : ‘India doesn’t hold a plebiscite in Kashmir because Kashmiris won’t choose India, and we in India, despite our sanctimonious garbage about being the largest democracy in the World, are not ready to grant Kashmiris their democratic right of self determination of their destiny and future, the right that the British granted our own founding fathers, the right to liberty and freedom. Because essentially we are of a Nazi mindset unable to compromise or realize that writs are established not by suppression but by the acceptance of the will of the people’.
And please don’t make another scapegoat out of Pakistan… really this is really boring… ‘If India is bad, Pakistan is worst’ is not the kind of logic you wanna put across to defend India. Pakistan might be more horrible, nay lets say Pakistan IS more horrible, but then Pakistan hasn’t made any sanctimonious claims to be the largest democracy in the world either. We are a lot of things, but we are not hypocrites, and the Military-ruled-Islamic-Republic-of-Pakistan is what it is for the world to see, unlike the claimants of Secular Democracy in our region.
-YLH
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
krashid, tahmed, dostmittar,
Krashid and I might not agree on the Ahmadi issue, but I am sure Krashid also doesn’t believe that the Pakistani constitution has any right to define who is not a Muslim. I agree with tahmed on the Ahmadi issue, but I believe the definition of the Muslim given by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is even simpler than the one tahmed is giving… which is the kalima.. ‘there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet’ which is also the Kalima of the Ahmadis… hence the Ahmadis are as good of Muslims as anyone. With regards to Dost Mittar, the great financial and political clout that Agha Khan enjoys in Pakistan seems to have more weight than the threats of Mullahs for those rulers of Pakistan who are moved by necessity of maintaining personal kursi at all costs. Besides I find Ismailis to be the best kind of Muslims. As for the Druze, they are doing very well in the multicultural Lebanon… won’t you say?
Dear Layman,
About the freedom struggle… In Punjab and Sindh and to some extent in Bengal, the struggle for Pakistan was also the struggle for freedom from the British. Here is the reason why. Punjab and Sindh atleast were ruled by the Unionist Party under the Sikandar and Khizer Hayat Tiwana. The Unionist Party was anti-all India parties, like the Congress and the League… whereas both League and Congress stood for the complete Independence of the Indian subcontinent in the 1930s and 1940s, the curious alliance between Muslim Landlords and Hindu industrialists that the Unionist Party was, it was loyalist. In Punjab both Congress and League couldn’t succeed for a very long time given the feudal structure which perpetuated the Unionist Rule. Many Historians have argued that the League took up the Pakistan demand to mobilize the masses behind it to wrest control from the Unionist Party which it did successfully in the 1940s. So when the Muslim League Workers were arrested en masse in 1946 and 1947 they were arrested by the British government for protesting against the British Backed Tiwana Ministry. As early as 1940, all land holders in Punjab who switched to the League from the Unionist Party lost their lands… this included my own great grandfather… who was till then an ‘honorary magistrate’ in his area. So the answer is that the struggle of Pakistan in Punjab and Sindh was greatly intertwined with the struggle for freedom in these areas as unlike the rest of the India where Congress came to represent the freedom movement, in these areas it was the League which represented the anti-British feeling. The sad part of course is that when Pakistan was created the Unionists joined the League in large numbers making the Punjab Muslim League a natural successor of the much hated Unionist Party. Whereas Khizer Hayat was the stalwart of the Unionist Party, his political successor Khuda Baksh Tiwana contests election from Bulwal on a Muslim League ticket. Here Jinnah and his followers failed.
You raise a very interesting point about Arabic’s case as the national language of Pakistan. The Bengalis asked for the same thing… I think it was FazlulHaq who said Arabic would be acceptable as a National language to all Bengalis, but to me it really doesn’t make sense. You see, even the classical Two Nation Theory spoke of South Asian Muslims as a nation distinct even from Arab Muslims as from South Asian Hindus. Dr.Iqbal, in his famous address that gave the idea of Pakistan at Allahabad in 1930, mentioned the ‘protection of South Asian Islam from Arab Imperialism’. Similarly Jinnah, being a Khoja Shiite gujurati by birth, wasn’t a big fan of the Arabs or the Arab straitjacket Islam. Many of the customs, as Jinnah pointed out to a Hindu friend, in his Islam were of Hindu origin which made it more colorful. The case for Arabic as the national language of Pakistan was perhaps only as strong as the case for English… since the former meant the continuation of Arab Imperialism, the latter meant the continuation of British Imperialism. Despite Jinnah’s repeated warnings against Pakistan being a theocracy, over time the mullahs still managed to sneak in the Federal Shariat court, the Blasphemy law, the Hudood ordinance (through Zia)… Can you imagine what they would have done to us, if Arabic was to become the National Language of Pakistan.
Urdu in my opinion was the only option… and it was accepted by the Non-Urdu speaking millions of West Pakistan… so the Bengalis were in my opinion wrong in not accepting Urdu as the national language though all their other grievances were justified… besides Bengali was given the Provincial Language status early on, and then Equal National Language status in the 1950s.
-YLH
Posted by
ylh
Aug 3, 2002 09:19 pm
krashid, tahmed, dostmittar,
Krashid and I might not agree on the Ahmadi issue, but I am sure Krashid also doesn’t believe that the Pakistani constitution has any right to define who is not a Muslim. I agree with tahmed on the Ahmadi issue, but I believe the definition of the Muslim given by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is even simpler than the one tahmed is giving… which is the kalima.. ‘there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet’ which is also the Kalima of the Ahmadis… hence the Ahmadis are as good of Muslims as anyone. With regards to Dost Mittar, the great financial and political clout that Agha Khan enjoys in Pakistan seems to have more weight than the threats of Mullahs for those rulers of Pakistan who are moved by necessity of maintaining personal kursi at all costs. Besides I find Ismailis to be the best kind of Muslims. As for the Druze, they are doing very well in the multicultural Lebanon… won’t you say?
Dear Layman,
About the freedom struggle… In Punjab and Sindh and to some extent in Bengal, the struggle for Pakistan was also the struggle for freedom from the British. Here is the reason why. Punjab and Sindh atleast were ruled by the Unionist Party under the Sikandar and Khizer Hayat Tiwana. The Unionist Party was anti-all India parties, like the Congress and the League… whereas both League and Congress stood for the complete Independence of the Indian subcontinent in the 1930s and 1940s, the curious alliance between Muslim Landlords and Hindu industrialists that the Unionist Party was, it was loyalist. In Punjab both Congress and League couldn’t succeed for a very long time given the feudal structure which perpetuated the Unionist Rule. Many Historians have argued that the League took up the Pakistan demand to mobilize the masses behind it to wrest control from the Unionist Party which it did successfully in the 1940s. So when the Muslim League Workers were arrested en masse in 1946 and 1947 they were arrested by the British government for protesting against the British Backed Tiwana Ministry. As early as 1940, all land holders in Punjab who switched to the League from the Unionist Party lost their lands… this included my own great grandfather… who was till then an ‘honorary magistrate’ in his area. So the answer is that the struggle of Pakistan in Punjab and Sindh was greatly intertwined with the struggle for freedom in these areas as unlike the rest of the India where Congress came to represent the freedom movement, in these areas it was the League which represented the anti-British feeling. The sad part of course is that when Pakistan was created the Unionists joined the League in large numbers making the Punjab Muslim League a natural successor of the much hated Unionist Party. Whereas Khizer Hayat was the stalwart of the Unionist Party, his political successor Khuda Baksh Tiwana contests election from Bulwal on a Muslim League ticket. Here Jinnah and his followers failed.
You raise a very interesting point about Arabic’s case as the national language of Pakistan. The Bengalis asked for the same thing… I think it was FazlulHaq who said Arabic would be acceptable as a National language to all Bengalis, but to me it really doesn’t make sense. You see, even the classical Two Nation Theory spoke of South Asian Muslims as a nation distinct even from Arab Muslims as from South Asian Hindus. Dr.Iqbal, in his famous address that gave the idea of Pakistan at Allahabad in 1930, mentioned the ‘protection of South Asian Islam from Arab Imperialism’. Similarly Jinnah, being a Khoja Shiite gujurati by birth, wasn’t a big fan of the Arabs or the Arab straitjacket Islam. Many of the customs, as Jinnah pointed out to a Hindu friend, in his Islam were of Hindu origin which made it more colorful. The case for Arabic as the national language of Pakistan was perhaps only as strong as the case for English… since the former meant the continuation of Arab Imperialism, the latter meant the continuation of British Imperialism. Despite Jinnah’s repeated warnings against Pakistan being a theocracy, over time the mullahs still managed to sneak in the Federal Shariat court, the Blasphemy law, the Hudood ordinance (through Zia)… Can you imagine what they would have done to us, if Arabic was to become the National Language of Pakistan.
Urdu in my opinion was the only option… and it was accepted by the Non-Urdu speaking millions of West Pakistan… so the Bengalis were in my opinion wrong in not accepting Urdu as the national language though all their other grievances were justified… besides Bengali was given the Provincial Language status early on, and then Equal National Language status in the 1950s.
-YLH
The Right To Bigotry
A well written Article.
Welcomed respite after the iodine deficient ramblings of Sumit Ganguly (“I took the pin out of the grenade to make it safe”) , P-Mishra2 ( “so whats wrong with Ganguly’s claim”), Jay and Rsaxena (“Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have DST”)…
Sincerely
YLH
Posted by
ylh
Aug 2, 2002 02:00 pm
Aakar,A well written Article.
Welcomed respite after the iodine deficient ramblings of Sumit Ganguly (“I took the pin out of the grenade to make it safe”) , P-Mishra2 ( “so whats wrong with Ganguly’s claim”), Jay and Rsaxena (“Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have DST”)…
Sincerely
YLH
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
PS:
Since you completely avoided my simple question about the plebiscite in Kashmir .. do I take it that you don`t have an answer? You just can`t expect us to take you seriously with your overwhelming jingoism, lack of balance and your outright display of hatred for all things Pakistani.
And what about Karachi... nobody considers Karachi disputed... then why is RAW so actively involved there?
-YLH
Posted by
ylh
Aug 2, 2002 02:00 pm
PS:
Since you completely avoided my simple question about the plebiscite in Kashmir .. do I take it that you don`t have an answer? You just can`t expect us to take you seriously with your overwhelming jingoism, lack of balance and your outright display of hatred for all things Pakistani.
And what about Karachi... nobody considers Karachi disputed... then why is RAW so actively involved there?
-YLH
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
One should always read between the lines. Here is why Indians might prefer living in Pakistan illegally than live legally in their own country:
Emma Duncan says about the illegal immigrants in Pakistan:
‘They aren’t impoverished squatters, of the sort whose shacks line the pavements and cram any available space in Bombay. Many of the houses in the illegal townships are better than the flats the Indian Government provides its civil servants”
(Page 170 Breaking the Curfew Arrow Books)
Posted by
ylh
Aug 2, 2002 02:00 pm
MORE ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS IN KARACHI One should always read between the lines. Here is why Indians might prefer living in Pakistan illegally than live legally in their own country:
Emma Duncan says about the illegal immigrants in Pakistan:
‘They aren’t impoverished squatters, of the sort whose shacks line the pavements and cram any available space in Bombay. Many of the houses in the illegal townships are better than the flats the Indian Government provides its civil servants”
(Page 170 Breaking the Curfew Arrow Books)
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
Dear HumSab,
None of the following is a ‘defence’ of Jinnah… below is a simple debate… and various point of views people have on the issues you have mentioned… whatever `Hagiography` I am guilty of was done in response to some people`s attempt to make Gandhi a God while insulting Jinnah.
“I agree to your point of Jinnah having all those qualities but he had lots of faults also as all of us including Gandhi and Nehru have/had.”
True … and Jinnah prided himself in being a mortal. Like I have said before, Jinnah was susceptible to mistakes… one particular statement which I am indignant about is the ‘typewriter’ statement… by making a statement like that he discredited the achievement of Muslim Leaguers who had by 1947 been to jail for Pakistan… ( analogous to Imran Khan’s ‘At the twilight of my career I finally won the world cup’ speech at Melbourne in 1992)… undeniably Jinnah had his share of faults like all human beings do… but it is his courage, his foresight, his complete honesty and integrity, his incorruptibility and his impartiality that make me admire him.
Was Jinnah a democrat? I don’t know… I know he believed in Civilian Rule and Army’s subordination… I know he was an excellent legislator during his 20 odd years in the British India representative assembly… he believed in freedom of press as is evidenced in the hostile articles published in even papers like Dawn and Nawai Waqt in his time against what they thought were ‘Jinnah’s dictatorial policies’. He more than any other leader in the History of Muslim South Asia till his death spoke out about women’s equality. And about the rights of minorities … he was a constitutionalist…. But did he want all executive authority centered in one individual? Maybe … Maybe not… It is quite clear that Jinnah himself would have preferred a more American form of Government… one of his notes found stated ‘parliamentary form of government has worked excellently in England but has generally failed elsewhere’. Does this mean Jinnah preferred presidential form of government … given his experience as a legislator in a viceregal system? That is for the historians to decide. Perhaps it is worthwhile noting that democracy is not only of the parliamentary Westminster form… though we know Jinnah held that form in great esteem...
``saara berha garq Jinnah da hi kitta hoya. Apne jinde ji koi second leadership develop nahi hon ditti kyonki khud dictator wang Party chalanda si te mar gaya taN mulq da kuchh nahi bacheya.``
First of all, just because someone is a journalist doesn’t mean his view is the gospel. Anyway… I agree that Jinnah’s inability to create a second tier leadership, a viable constitution and his assumption of Executive authority through the office of governor-general created a lot of problems… but could Jinnah have created a second tier leadership? It is worth remembering that Jinnah was an Urbanite ex-Congressite Bombaywallah while the Muslim League in the start was an elitist organization of the landed Muslim Nobility. In 1935 when Jinnah returned, he faced the enormous task of transforming a moribund league into a party of the masses. In order to do that .. Jinnah had to contend with the nawabzadas, the muslim rajahs, jagirdars, sirs and Sirdars etc who by virtue of Birth had greater weight and status in the Muslim Community… On the other Jinnah was a Westernized urbanite not-very-religious Muslim who came from a very middle class family in Karachi … so when Jinnah went about organizing the League he naturally had to employ all means to subjugate these individuals in his unity of command (though he went through the ceremonial process of party elections every year as an article of faith)… In other words he had to show the Sikandar Hayats and the Khizar Hayat Tiwanas, the Haqs, the Soomros, the feudals of Punjab, and Sindh and Bengal, who the Boss was… who was their daddy… basically. (Kinda like Ataturk in Turkey who had to use such tactics to bring the Turk Nationalists solidly behind his own unity of command).
About the Governor-Generalship… I agree that it would have been better for Pakistan if Jinnah would have become the Prime Minister… many authors have blamed Jinnah for creating a bad precedent there… though others like Alan Mcgrath (Destruction of Pakistan’s Democracy), Ayesha Jalal (the State of Martial Rule) and Khalid Bin Sayeed ( Pakistan the formative Phase) disagree… according to them it was necessary for Jinnah to be the Governor General … it is also put forth as a view that Mountbatten wanted the Governor-Generalship of Pakistan as well as India which was unacceptable to the Muslim League… furthermore there is conclusive evidence that Jinnah was forced by the League to play any part at all in mid June.. because after the 3rd June 1947 Jinnah indicated that he was going to retire from politics and live out his days in his house on 2 Mount Pleasant Road Bombay…
Was Jinnah a strong and almost autocratic GG? Yes he was… and as the authors mentioned above will tell you… this was necessary… he didn’t play any games to get to that place… you have to remember that people called him the Quaid e Azam… he was the one symbol of Unity, much more than even Islamic culture, for Pakistan. His status was above and beyond other leaders of the League … yet despite all these powers concentrated in his own person he didn’t impose a constitution of his will… he didn’t try to interfere with the working of the constituent assembly as Ataturk had done in the Turkish Assembly… all the actions he took were within the framework of the modified 1935 Government of India Act, never overstepping his authority once… NWFP and later on Sindh were sore points… history still hasn’t revealed why despite all the cordiality in Karachi A G Khan and Jinnah couldn’t come to an agreement… or what role the NWFP Muslim League played in the whole saga… Dr.Khan Sahib’s ministry shouldn’t have been dismissed if indeed he had taken an oath of loyalty to Pakistan as some versions say was the case… I have already explained my views on the Language issue…
Anyway this is one way of looking at all of this… but you and I agree that Jinnah was a mortal with qualities and flaws just like the rest of us…
Sadna..
Mind explaining how a simple 3 line question with no malice amounts to ‘wasting so much time on Mr.Kant’? Are you getting a regular eye sight check… cuz I am worried about you… Infact the amount of stupid answers I got shows how insecure Indians are about all of this… Why must Jinnah’s type writer be made an issue of?
I believe there are a few Gujurati Language papers published in Karachi… (I don’t think that proves my point though… since the inscription on Jinnah’s tomb in Karachi is also in Gujurati with a non-Arabic script)… whatever the regional language of these immigrants… you forget that they can also speak Hindi? Or am I mistaken.. because a lot of Marathi speaking and gujurati speaking Indians at Rutgers also spoke fluent Hindi…
“Did these reports say anywhere that Western aid didnot play a role?”
Did I say that Western Aid didn’t play a role? But the reports you talk about don’t mention Aid one way or the other… Foreign Direct Investment by companies like GM in 1950s could have been a factor though don’t you think?
“And according to me Emma Duncan had a soft corner for Pakistan. She says it herself too.”
Like I said I really don’t care what you think… and as far as her.. she said it and you believed it? Why ? is it because she is white… while you don’t believe us fellow brown skinned Pakistanis?
You speak of the exploitation of the Bengalis… Point taken… but Pakistani Economy’s Boomtime was late 1970s … (Afghanistan Aid started pouring in during Reagan’s period and not Carter’s … Zia rejected Carter’s 400 million in 1979 as Peanuts and Pakistan’s AID had been suspended all through out the 70s) the near 7% growth rate was ALSO achieved in 1993 before the AFC and the general Economic slump and after the US sanctions in 1991.
About NUKES… Once again I am not asking you why or why not India initiated the Nuclear Arms race in South Asia.. whatever happened to Gandhian nonviolence which Gandhi articulated in his advice to the Linlithgow something to the effect that ‘let the Nazis occupy England, get slaughtered man woman and child, but don’t give up in spirit.’ Whatever happened to Gandhi’s ‘Non-violent’ Army? Are you suggesting that the Chinese or the Pakistanis or the Americans are somehow worse than the Nazis … that Ahimsa and Satyagraha according to Gandhi should have worked with the Nazis but not with the Chinese, the Pakistanis and the Americans? The fact my dear is that followers of Gandhi like the late and great Dr.Kant and the Kabir-Bhagt APJ A Kalam President of India are active proponents of the weapons of Mass destruction. This is an ironic contradiction.
“ but he, the most `hawkish` Indian as seen by Pakistanis, suggests a confederation,”
Has it occurred to you that we Pakistanis, evil as we are, might consider this as a sinister attempt at ‘re-unification’ and the revitalization of the ‘akhand bharat’ which the Hindu fundamentalists think was vivisected by the crazed Muslims? Have you considered why a self proclaimed Hinduvtist like Advani would want a confederation with Pakistan which he so blatantly hates, except that it is his desire to see Bharat Mata one again? See the whole idea of confederation was valid only till a famous Congress Leader rejected it in 1946 … to reopen old wounds shows a sinister mentality on Mr.Advani’s part… we cherish our complete sovereignty… upon the solution of Kashmir we do desire friendly and even brotherly ties with India (though lot has passed under the bridge not just water)… but we consider all ideas of ‘Confederation’ as inimical to our interests… a word of advice: why don’t you ask Bangladesh to make a Confederation with you instead of us? They will never agree as we will never agree… so please don’t try to pass off thinly veiled attempts at resuscitating the ‘Akhand Bharat Mata’ as signs of secular moderation.
Why not sit down and solve the Kashmir dispute… why not stop RAW from fomenting sectarian and ethnic trouble in Pakistan… (since you never mentioned the nefarious activities of RAW in your posts, I won’t say a single word about ISI’s activies in India)… end the security turmoil… end fundamentalism in both countries… and upon establishment of genuine democracy in Pakistan WHY not exist as two sovereign Democracies working together on International/Bilateral forums to reduce poverty in our nations… perhaps reducing nationalistic competition to the fields of IT, education, arts, culture, tourism and sports? Instead of NUKES?
Posted by
ylh
Aug 2, 2002 02:00 pm
Dear HumSab,
None of the following is a ‘defence’ of Jinnah… below is a simple debate… and various point of views people have on the issues you have mentioned… whatever `Hagiography` I am guilty of was done in response to some people`s attempt to make Gandhi a God while insulting Jinnah.
“I agree to your point of Jinnah having all those qualities but he had lots of faults also as all of us including Gandhi and Nehru have/had.”
True … and Jinnah prided himself in being a mortal. Like I have said before, Jinnah was susceptible to mistakes… one particular statement which I am indignant about is the ‘typewriter’ statement… by making a statement like that he discredited the achievement of Muslim Leaguers who had by 1947 been to jail for Pakistan… ( analogous to Imran Khan’s ‘At the twilight of my career I finally won the world cup’ speech at Melbourne in 1992)… undeniably Jinnah had his share of faults like all human beings do… but it is his courage, his foresight, his complete honesty and integrity, his incorruptibility and his impartiality that make me admire him.
Was Jinnah a democrat? I don’t know… I know he believed in Civilian Rule and Army’s subordination… I know he was an excellent legislator during his 20 odd years in the British India representative assembly… he believed in freedom of press as is evidenced in the hostile articles published in even papers like Dawn and Nawai Waqt in his time against what they thought were ‘Jinnah’s dictatorial policies’. He more than any other leader in the History of Muslim South Asia till his death spoke out about women’s equality. And about the rights of minorities … he was a constitutionalist…. But did he want all executive authority centered in one individual? Maybe … Maybe not… It is quite clear that Jinnah himself would have preferred a more American form of Government… one of his notes found stated ‘parliamentary form of government has worked excellently in England but has generally failed elsewhere’. Does this mean Jinnah preferred presidential form of government … given his experience as a legislator in a viceregal system? That is for the historians to decide. Perhaps it is worthwhile noting that democracy is not only of the parliamentary Westminster form… though we know Jinnah held that form in great esteem...
``saara berha garq Jinnah da hi kitta hoya. Apne jinde ji koi second leadership develop nahi hon ditti kyonki khud dictator wang Party chalanda si te mar gaya taN mulq da kuchh nahi bacheya.``
First of all, just because someone is a journalist doesn’t mean his view is the gospel. Anyway… I agree that Jinnah’s inability to create a second tier leadership, a viable constitution and his assumption of Executive authority through the office of governor-general created a lot of problems… but could Jinnah have created a second tier leadership? It is worth remembering that Jinnah was an Urbanite ex-Congressite Bombaywallah while the Muslim League in the start was an elitist organization of the landed Muslim Nobility. In 1935 when Jinnah returned, he faced the enormous task of transforming a moribund league into a party of the masses. In order to do that .. Jinnah had to contend with the nawabzadas, the muslim rajahs, jagirdars, sirs and Sirdars etc who by virtue of Birth had greater weight and status in the Muslim Community… On the other Jinnah was a Westernized urbanite not-very-religious Muslim who came from a very middle class family in Karachi … so when Jinnah went about organizing the League he naturally had to employ all means to subjugate these individuals in his unity of command (though he went through the ceremonial process of party elections every year as an article of faith)… In other words he had to show the Sikandar Hayats and the Khizar Hayat Tiwanas, the Haqs, the Soomros, the feudals of Punjab, and Sindh and Bengal, who the Boss was… who was their daddy… basically. (Kinda like Ataturk in Turkey who had to use such tactics to bring the Turk Nationalists solidly behind his own unity of command).
About the Governor-Generalship… I agree that it would have been better for Pakistan if Jinnah would have become the Prime Minister… many authors have blamed Jinnah for creating a bad precedent there… though others like Alan Mcgrath (Destruction of Pakistan’s Democracy), Ayesha Jalal (the State of Martial Rule) and Khalid Bin Sayeed ( Pakistan the formative Phase) disagree… according to them it was necessary for Jinnah to be the Governor General … it is also put forth as a view that Mountbatten wanted the Governor-Generalship of Pakistan as well as India which was unacceptable to the Muslim League… furthermore there is conclusive evidence that Jinnah was forced by the League to play any part at all in mid June.. because after the 3rd June 1947 Jinnah indicated that he was going to retire from politics and live out his days in his house on 2 Mount Pleasant Road Bombay…
Was Jinnah a strong and almost autocratic GG? Yes he was… and as the authors mentioned above will tell you… this was necessary… he didn’t play any games to get to that place… you have to remember that people called him the Quaid e Azam… he was the one symbol of Unity, much more than even Islamic culture, for Pakistan. His status was above and beyond other leaders of the League … yet despite all these powers concentrated in his own person he didn’t impose a constitution of his will… he didn’t try to interfere with the working of the constituent assembly as Ataturk had done in the Turkish Assembly… all the actions he took were within the framework of the modified 1935 Government of India Act, never overstepping his authority once… NWFP and later on Sindh were sore points… history still hasn’t revealed why despite all the cordiality in Karachi A G Khan and Jinnah couldn’t come to an agreement… or what role the NWFP Muslim League played in the whole saga… Dr.Khan Sahib’s ministry shouldn’t have been dismissed if indeed he had taken an oath of loyalty to Pakistan as some versions say was the case… I have already explained my views on the Language issue…
Anyway this is one way of looking at all of this… but you and I agree that Jinnah was a mortal with qualities and flaws just like the rest of us…
Sadna..
Mind explaining how a simple 3 line question with no malice amounts to ‘wasting so much time on Mr.Kant’? Are you getting a regular eye sight check… cuz I am worried about you… Infact the amount of stupid answers I got shows how insecure Indians are about all of this… Why must Jinnah’s type writer be made an issue of?
I believe there are a few Gujurati Language papers published in Karachi… (I don’t think that proves my point though… since the inscription on Jinnah’s tomb in Karachi is also in Gujurati with a non-Arabic script)… whatever the regional language of these immigrants… you forget that they can also speak Hindi? Or am I mistaken.. because a lot of Marathi speaking and gujurati speaking Indians at Rutgers also spoke fluent Hindi…
“Did these reports say anywhere that Western aid didnot play a role?”
Did I say that Western Aid didn’t play a role? But the reports you talk about don’t mention Aid one way or the other… Foreign Direct Investment by companies like GM in 1950s could have been a factor though don’t you think?
“And according to me Emma Duncan had a soft corner for Pakistan. She says it herself too.”
Like I said I really don’t care what you think… and as far as her.. she said it and you believed it? Why ? is it because she is white… while you don’t believe us fellow brown skinned Pakistanis?
You speak of the exploitation of the Bengalis… Point taken… but Pakistani Economy’s Boomtime was late 1970s … (Afghanistan Aid started pouring in during Reagan’s period and not Carter’s … Zia rejected Carter’s 400 million in 1979 as Peanuts and Pakistan’s AID had been suspended all through out the 70s) the near 7% growth rate was ALSO achieved in 1993 before the AFC and the general Economic slump and after the US sanctions in 1991.
About NUKES… Once again I am not asking you why or why not India initiated the Nuclear Arms race in South Asia.. whatever happened to Gandhian nonviolence which Gandhi articulated in his advice to the Linlithgow something to the effect that ‘let the Nazis occupy England, get slaughtered man woman and child, but don’t give up in spirit.’ Whatever happened to Gandhi’s ‘Non-violent’ Army? Are you suggesting that the Chinese or the Pakistanis or the Americans are somehow worse than the Nazis … that Ahimsa and Satyagraha according to Gandhi should have worked with the Nazis but not with the Chinese, the Pakistanis and the Americans? The fact my dear is that followers of Gandhi like the late and great Dr.Kant and the Kabir-Bhagt APJ A Kalam President of India are active proponents of the weapons of Mass destruction. This is an ironic contradiction.
“ but he, the most `hawkish` Indian as seen by Pakistanis, suggests a confederation,”
Has it occurred to you that we Pakistanis, evil as we are, might consider this as a sinister attempt at ‘re-unification’ and the revitalization of the ‘akhand bharat’ which the Hindu fundamentalists think was vivisected by the crazed Muslims? Have you considered why a self proclaimed Hinduvtist like Advani would want a confederation with Pakistan which he so blatantly hates, except that it is his desire to see Bharat Mata one again? See the whole idea of confederation was valid only till a famous Congress Leader rejected it in 1946 … to reopen old wounds shows a sinister mentality on Mr.Advani’s part… we cherish our complete sovereignty… upon the solution of Kashmir we do desire friendly and even brotherly ties with India (though lot has passed under the bridge not just water)… but we consider all ideas of ‘Confederation’ as inimical to our interests… a word of advice: why don’t you ask Bangladesh to make a Confederation with you instead of us? They will never agree as we will never agree… so please don’t try to pass off thinly veiled attempts at resuscitating the ‘Akhand Bharat Mata’ as signs of secular moderation.
Why not sit down and solve the Kashmir dispute… why not stop RAW from fomenting sectarian and ethnic trouble in Pakistan… (since you never mentioned the nefarious activities of RAW in your posts, I won’t say a single word about ISI’s activies in India)… end the security turmoil… end fundamentalism in both countries… and upon establishment of genuine democracy in Pakistan WHY not exist as two sovereign Democracies working together on International/Bilateral forums to reduce poverty in our nations… perhaps reducing nationalistic competition to the fields of IT, education, arts, culture, tourism and sports? Instead of NUKES?
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
I am glad that you don’t hate me:) because I have always had the utmost respect for you… you are one of the few along with the author of this article… I was thinking about going to Karachi on the 13th for the Junoon concert.. but I haven`t gotten any details of that yet... So nothing is final yet...
what about you?
By the way do you watch Karachi’s Music Channel ‘Indus Music’ and other channels of Indus Network… they are just awesome… don’t you find it sad that some artists (like Shima Kirmani) claim abroad that dancing and singing is banned by Law in Pakistan? Despite all that is going on with atleast 5 new independent channels (ARY, UniPLUS, TPC, Indus, Indus Music, the City Channel etc) promoting music and dance in Pakistan? Why do we love putting our country down… I am asking this because of all the hoo haa here on chowk after my reaction to lies published by Seth Mydans in NY Times a few months back…
ASO
``A grenade does not explode just by taking out the pin. The liver, which is held in the place by the pin, has to be removed. So if you still keep the liver in place and take out the pin, grenade does not go BANG. Did you also consider Ganguly may have been attempting to be funny?``
I am sure Sumit Ganguly is a professional grenade expert who knows how to keep the `Liver` in place after the pin holding it in place was removed for god knows what reasons? Let me remind you that Mr.Ganguly said : I took the Pin out to make it safe... Won`t you say taking the pin out made it less safe despite Mr.Ganguly`s PROFESSIONAL EXPERTISE in matters of grenade? It is quite clear that Sumit Ganguly was making the story up.. besides you can`t buy a grenade in the Open market in peshawar.. if someone knows how to... I`ll be willing to reimburse him for his trip to Pakistan if he shows me where to buy a grenade from in Peshawar. There is a weapons problem in NWFP in the tribal areas which have been autonomous since the British ... but the tribal areas are not Peshawar which is a provincial capital and generally free of violence.
As for Sumit Ganguly being funny... I had the unfortunate experience of meeting him at Yale and believe me whatever is funny about him is not intentional... No … he wasn’t being funny.
Mithuna,
I recalled accurately I think… anyway the interview was in early part of 2001 before April (I’ll check again though)… it became really famous too as many people know … it might even have been mentioned on Chowk before…
Sadna,
Only a person with absolutely 0 knowledge of Economics will say attribute completely the huge near 7% annual Economic growth in the 1950s and 1960s to the ‘Western Aid’. On 18th January 1965 the New York Times commented: ‘Pakistan may be on its way toward another Economic Milestone that so far has been reached by only one populous country, the United States.’ Harvard Business Review commented similarly of that period… Harvard studied Pakistan as an efficient Economic growth model in the 1960s… don’t you think they would have said, if all of it was due to ‘Western Aid’?
Don’t try to make the same kind of strawman fallacies your distinguished compatriot (other alias perhaps) P-Mishra2 excels at…My quotes are always accurate to the point… About Emma Duncan let me make it clear… I just quoted her as saying that Pakistan was sort of a Local America for immigrants… I didn’t say she mentioned Indians… that is bad faith on her part I suppose for there are just so many of them in Karachi’s outskirts (in my estimate)… maybe it was because of that soft spot she had for India… maybe it was the strains in her relationship with a well known Pakistani celebrity which created that soft spot… maybe her funding was from India’s businessmen that she frequently mentions… in any event the book she wrote is extremely readable … and serves as a mirror for Pakistanis… but I am not going to speculate with certainty as to why she didn’t mention Indian immigrants when there are scores of them around Karachi I believe ( Perhaps some Karachite whom you trust can do a survey… or maybe you can visit Pakistan to see for yourself? In any event I don’t give a damn what you think or don’t think)
``You will need to provide some corroboration for your `hundreds of illegal Indian scum` remark before it can be accepted.``
For the record : I said `Immigrant scum`... another attempt at a strawman fallacy is it? this is how you Indians try to win arguments... Kindly take the silly notion out of your overinflated head that I need you to accept anything... it is a fact.. there have been several documentaries... I am informing you that a lot of them, especially the ones living around Karachi in shanti towns are Indians who have crossed over the Border from India... the horrible Indian movie ‘refugee’ shows how there is cross border activity of Bihari Immigrants into Sindh but what it doesn`t show is that some of those immigrants are Indians who go to Pakistan for a better life ... (while some are RAW trained terrorist sent into foment sectarian and ethnic trouble).. if you don`t want to accept any of this.. you have right too... (just like we have the right to claim that there was NEVER any cross border infiltration into Kashmir) ... your accepting or our claiming doesn`t make something true... Gandhian hog wash of truth being relative aint true.. truth is fact and facts are true...
Gandhi’s Statue : As for the statues, there were many ... but the Gandhi statue I was talking about was the one outside the Sindh High Court Karachi in 1947 ... it was sanctioned in the 1930s by the British Government.. it was threatened in 1947 and so the first Governor General of Pakistan, Mr.M A Jinnah, acted swiftly to protect it ordering it to be put at a safe place.. Later the statue was given to the Indian High commission in Karachi by the same government to put outside its compound... Today the statue stands in Islamabad .. in the lawn of the Indian High Commission ...As for your pathetic defence of Non-violent preachers who preach Nuclear Arms... here is some new information for you... India was the first country to go nuclear in 1974 ... Pakistan didn`t initiate the Nuclear Arms Race... its amazing even when India excretes ... it is noble for you...
Let me make something clear to you... You have no right to tell me anything unless you do it yourself.. If you shut up about Pakistan... I will shut up about India... don`t give me that nonsense about insurgency... it is quite apparent that anything happens in India it is blamed on Pakistan... as if India is totally innocent... You have fomented trouble in Pakistan for 55 years... Your utter Hypocrisy and Bigotry ... plus your predilection to fallacy never ceases to amaze me...
Answer the simple question: Why doesn`t India hold a plebiscite in Kashmir?
The answer to that is a very sad one.. and I am sure sanctimonious garbage that you utter has no place for truth does it? One could make a scapegoat out of the fact that `Pakistan didn`t withdraw its troops` ... but the fact is that India doesn`t even recognize Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory... when it explicitly promised otherwise some 50 years ago... If India were serious in holding a plebiscite in the valley... Pakistan would withdraw its troops... no one can deny that. It must be kept in mind that Pakistani held Kashmir retains its special status as Azad Jammu and Kashmir with an Elected Prime Minister and legislature within a sort of a Pakistani commonwealth... even when Pakistan itself is denied democracy...
Roohi...
How is the call for prayer related to the issue of Kashmiris? Pakistan`s standard line may well be something else... and I don`t want to go into that... but is the Indian government even ready to talk on Kashmir???The basis of the problem is in the denial of the right of self determination... pointing fingers at Pakistan is not necessarily going to excuse India for that...
You have accused me of taking a one-sided stance on India and Pakistan... I have been more than willing, as many of your countrymen here know, to take a balanced approach... but none of it has been reciprocated... Instead of preaching to me, who has in the past made every effort to start a fruitful and productive dialogue... why don`t you try preaching to your own people...
As god is my witness I have hardened my stance over time... (I am well aware that Kashmir`s solution is not going to be on the lines Pakistani or Indian positions but a compromise) when I didn`t see even a kernel of hope of reciprocation amongst Indians... even people like you who claim to be moderates... Now you are accusing Aisha of all sorts of things... seems to me you didn`t even have the courtesy read the whole damn thing...
Read this part in Aisha`s Article:
``My solution to the Kashmir issue; cultivation of greater tolerance for other beliefs, yet never compromising on ones own, being a citizen of the world yet beginning with one’s own country. Working at grass root levels in Kashmir and believing that one day the world would meet God halfway, by being nice to its neighbors. This is not an over-simplification of the problem in Kashmir. I attempted to internalize the many details, so I’d be better equipped to step into the domain, but after lots of thought, I have created a new domain, the domain of “ fighting with peace”. Taking Pakistan’s land away doesn’t mean we’ll stupidly remain silent, but because the Kashmiris quality of life is much more important (and besides there has been too many rivers of blood) we’ll keep our feet firm on the ground, in peace not in arrogance``
You claimed that this person was spreading hate .. simply because her view didn`t correspond with your own view... So tell me whose view is balanced? Who is the Bigot?
About the other post let me assure you.. I am not in need of your praise.. whatever little I contribute to my country is done not for your praise... secondly you say:
``Also it is quite possible to want and work for the good of your country as well as that of mankind in general at the same time. One is a subset of the other.``
I believe that when I am working for the good of my country I am improving the world... I am not an idealist in the sense you want me to be... I don`t have pipe dreams... I will not volunteer in Africa to wipe out hunger war and famine there... that is their job... I personally don`t give a damn about the sufferings of Gujurati Muslims or Hindus.. I am more concerned with the plight of Pakistani Hindus, Christians.. My job is improving my own neighborhood.. my own little corner of the world.. if everyone was as selfish as me... the world would be a much better place...
The youth you talk about... the ones who are concerned about World peace, and world`s hunger more often than not end up working in the corporate sector in the United States, living cosy lives in their apartments in Manhattan or the Silicon Valley ... They haven`t wiped out the world`s hunger...
Please note that the bitter tone I am taking with you is the result of sustained erosion of good will on my part… I had gone to the US some 4 years ago as someone who really didn’t know what the hell Kashmir was about… who enjoyed a good Shah Rukh Khan/ Ashwariyah flick, whose favorite pop singer was Asha Bhonsle the Queen of Pop or so I thought..… whose only display of ‘Nationalism’ was when Pakistan played cricket against India… this was me… My earliest friends in the US were 5 Indians… one of them was Mr.Jignesh Gandhi, whom I had asked starry eyed on the first day if he was related to Mahatma Gandhi (he looked somewhat like him too)? Though on a personal level I got along well with them… but the bigotry I faced at the hands of Indians, their subtle sneers… their disapproval of my eating habits.. and then on a national level.. their constant attempts to veer me into political debates forced me read more and discover the truth… then after September 11th… all out lies about Pakistan by Indian intellectuals… all of this made me turn bitter… Some where along the way I made a conscious decision of returning to Pakistan after I was done with school despite my overwhelming love for all things American…When I returned from the US, my cousins told me that they found me considerably less religious, and more anti-Indian… isn’t that an ironic statement? One would imagine from the garbage Indians spout on these boards that anyone who is anti-Indian is an Islamic fundamentalist… I was the biggest fan of Indian Music in my extended family… now I don’t sit in the same room if someone turns on Indian Music…
We all have biases... but they usually have a reason.. and I have given you mine.. So whats yours?
-YLH
Posted by
ylh
Aug 1, 2002 12:19 pm
Dear anNyI am glad that you don’t hate me:) because I have always had the utmost respect for you… you are one of the few along with the author of this article… I was thinking about going to Karachi on the 13th for the Junoon concert.. but I haven`t gotten any details of that yet... So nothing is final yet...
what about you?
By the way do you watch Karachi’s Music Channel ‘Indus Music’ and other channels of Indus Network… they are just awesome… don’t you find it sad that some artists (like Shima Kirmani) claim abroad that dancing and singing is banned by Law in Pakistan? Despite all that is going on with atleast 5 new independent channels (ARY, UniPLUS, TPC, Indus, Indus Music, the City Channel etc) promoting music and dance in Pakistan? Why do we love putting our country down… I am asking this because of all the hoo haa here on chowk after my reaction to lies published by Seth Mydans in NY Times a few months back…
ASO
``A grenade does not explode just by taking out the pin. The liver, which is held in the place by the pin, has to be removed. So if you still keep the liver in place and take out the pin, grenade does not go BANG. Did you also consider Ganguly may have been attempting to be funny?``
I am sure Sumit Ganguly is a professional grenade expert who knows how to keep the `Liver` in place after the pin holding it in place was removed for god knows what reasons? Let me remind you that Mr.Ganguly said : I took the Pin out to make it safe... Won`t you say taking the pin out made it less safe despite Mr.Ganguly`s PROFESSIONAL EXPERTISE in matters of grenade? It is quite clear that Sumit Ganguly was making the story up.. besides you can`t buy a grenade in the Open market in peshawar.. if someone knows how to... I`ll be willing to reimburse him for his trip to Pakistan if he shows me where to buy a grenade from in Peshawar. There is a weapons problem in NWFP in the tribal areas which have been autonomous since the British ... but the tribal areas are not Peshawar which is a provincial capital and generally free of violence.
As for Sumit Ganguly being funny... I had the unfortunate experience of meeting him at Yale and believe me whatever is funny about him is not intentional... No … he wasn’t being funny.
Mithuna,
I recalled accurately I think… anyway the interview was in early part of 2001 before April (I’ll check again though)… it became really famous too as many people know … it might even have been mentioned on Chowk before…
Sadna,
Only a person with absolutely 0 knowledge of Economics will say attribute completely the huge near 7% annual Economic growth in the 1950s and 1960s to the ‘Western Aid’. On 18th January 1965 the New York Times commented: ‘Pakistan may be on its way toward another Economic Milestone that so far has been reached by only one populous country, the United States.’ Harvard Business Review commented similarly of that period… Harvard studied Pakistan as an efficient Economic growth model in the 1960s… don’t you think they would have said, if all of it was due to ‘Western Aid’?
Don’t try to make the same kind of strawman fallacies your distinguished compatriot (other alias perhaps) P-Mishra2 excels at…My quotes are always accurate to the point… About Emma Duncan let me make it clear… I just quoted her as saying that Pakistan was sort of a Local America for immigrants… I didn’t say she mentioned Indians… that is bad faith on her part I suppose for there are just so many of them in Karachi’s outskirts (in my estimate)… maybe it was because of that soft spot she had for India… maybe it was the strains in her relationship with a well known Pakistani celebrity which created that soft spot… maybe her funding was from India’s businessmen that she frequently mentions… in any event the book she wrote is extremely readable … and serves as a mirror for Pakistanis… but I am not going to speculate with certainty as to why she didn’t mention Indian immigrants when there are scores of them around Karachi I believe ( Perhaps some Karachite whom you trust can do a survey… or maybe you can visit Pakistan to see for yourself? In any event I don’t give a damn what you think or don’t think)
``You will need to provide some corroboration for your `hundreds of illegal Indian scum` remark before it can be accepted.``
For the record : I said `Immigrant scum`... another attempt at a strawman fallacy is it? this is how you Indians try to win arguments... Kindly take the silly notion out of your overinflated head that I need you to accept anything... it is a fact.. there have been several documentaries... I am informing you that a lot of them, especially the ones living around Karachi in shanti towns are Indians who have crossed over the Border from India... the horrible Indian movie ‘refugee’ shows how there is cross border activity of Bihari Immigrants into Sindh but what it doesn`t show is that some of those immigrants are Indians who go to Pakistan for a better life ... (while some are RAW trained terrorist sent into foment sectarian and ethnic trouble).. if you don`t want to accept any of this.. you have right too... (just like we have the right to claim that there was NEVER any cross border infiltration into Kashmir) ... your accepting or our claiming doesn`t make something true... Gandhian hog wash of truth being relative aint true.. truth is fact and facts are true...
Gandhi’s Statue : As for the statues, there were many ... but the Gandhi statue I was talking about was the one outside the Sindh High Court Karachi in 1947 ... it was sanctioned in the 1930s by the British Government.. it was threatened in 1947 and so the first Governor General of Pakistan, Mr.M A Jinnah, acted swiftly to protect it ordering it to be put at a safe place.. Later the statue was given to the Indian High commission in Karachi by the same government to put outside its compound... Today the statue stands in Islamabad .. in the lawn of the Indian High Commission ...As for your pathetic defence of Non-violent preachers who preach Nuclear Arms... here is some new information for you... India was the first country to go nuclear in 1974 ... Pakistan didn`t initiate the Nuclear Arms Race... its amazing even when India excretes ... it is noble for you...
Let me make something clear to you... You have no right to tell me anything unless you do it yourself.. If you shut up about Pakistan... I will shut up about India... don`t give me that nonsense about insurgency... it is quite apparent that anything happens in India it is blamed on Pakistan... as if India is totally innocent... You have fomented trouble in Pakistan for 55 years... Your utter Hypocrisy and Bigotry ... plus your predilection to fallacy never ceases to amaze me...
Answer the simple question: Why doesn`t India hold a plebiscite in Kashmir?
The answer to that is a very sad one.. and I am sure sanctimonious garbage that you utter has no place for truth does it? One could make a scapegoat out of the fact that `Pakistan didn`t withdraw its troops` ... but the fact is that India doesn`t even recognize Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory... when it explicitly promised otherwise some 50 years ago... If India were serious in holding a plebiscite in the valley... Pakistan would withdraw its troops... no one can deny that. It must be kept in mind that Pakistani held Kashmir retains its special status as Azad Jammu and Kashmir with an Elected Prime Minister and legislature within a sort of a Pakistani commonwealth... even when Pakistan itself is denied democracy...
Roohi...
How is the call for prayer related to the issue of Kashmiris? Pakistan`s standard line may well be something else... and I don`t want to go into that... but is the Indian government even ready to talk on Kashmir???The basis of the problem is in the denial of the right of self determination... pointing fingers at Pakistan is not necessarily going to excuse India for that...
You have accused me of taking a one-sided stance on India and Pakistan... I have been more than willing, as many of your countrymen here know, to take a balanced approach... but none of it has been reciprocated... Instead of preaching to me, who has in the past made every effort to start a fruitful and productive dialogue... why don`t you try preaching to your own people...
As god is my witness I have hardened my stance over time... (I am well aware that Kashmir`s solution is not going to be on the lines Pakistani or Indian positions but a compromise) when I didn`t see even a kernel of hope of reciprocation amongst Indians... even people like you who claim to be moderates... Now you are accusing Aisha of all sorts of things... seems to me you didn`t even have the courtesy read the whole damn thing...
Read this part in Aisha`s Article:
``My solution to the Kashmir issue; cultivation of greater tolerance for other beliefs, yet never compromising on ones own, being a citizen of the world yet beginning with one’s own country. Working at grass root levels in Kashmir and believing that one day the world would meet God halfway, by being nice to its neighbors. This is not an over-simplification of the problem in Kashmir. I attempted to internalize the many details, so I’d be better equipped to step into the domain, but after lots of thought, I have created a new domain, the domain of “ fighting with peace”. Taking Pakistan’s land away doesn’t mean we’ll stupidly remain silent, but because the Kashmiris quality of life is much more important (and besides there has been too many rivers of blood) we’ll keep our feet firm on the ground, in peace not in arrogance``
You claimed that this person was spreading hate .. simply because her view didn`t correspond with your own view... So tell me whose view is balanced? Who is the Bigot?
About the other post let me assure you.. I am not in need of your praise.. whatever little I contribute to my country is done not for your praise... secondly you say:
``Also it is quite possible to want and work for the good of your country as well as that of mankind in general at the same time. One is a subset of the other.``
I believe that when I am working for the good of my country I am improving the world... I am not an idealist in the sense you want me to be... I don`t have pipe dreams... I will not volunteer in Africa to wipe out hunger war and famine there... that is their job... I personally don`t give a damn about the sufferings of Gujurati Muslims or Hindus.. I am more concerned with the plight of Pakistani Hindus, Christians.. My job is improving my own neighborhood.. my own little corner of the world.. if everyone was as selfish as me... the world would be a much better place...
The youth you talk about... the ones who are concerned about World peace, and world`s hunger more often than not end up working in the corporate sector in the United States, living cosy lives in their apartments in Manhattan or the Silicon Valley ... They haven`t wiped out the world`s hunger...
Please note that the bitter tone I am taking with you is the result of sustained erosion of good will on my part… I had gone to the US some 4 years ago as someone who really didn’t know what the hell Kashmir was about… who enjoyed a good Shah Rukh Khan/ Ashwariyah flick, whose favorite pop singer was Asha Bhonsle the Queen of Pop or so I thought..… whose only display of ‘Nationalism’ was when Pakistan played cricket against India… this was me… My earliest friends in the US were 5 Indians… one of them was Mr.Jignesh Gandhi, whom I had asked starry eyed on the first day if he was related to Mahatma Gandhi (he looked somewhat like him too)? Though on a personal level I got along well with them… but the bigotry I faced at the hands of Indians, their subtle sneers… their disapproval of my eating habits.. and then on a national level.. their constant attempts to veer me into political debates forced me read more and discover the truth… then after September 11th… all out lies about Pakistan by Indian intellectuals… all of this made me turn bitter… Some where along the way I made a conscious decision of returning to Pakistan after I was done with school despite my overwhelming love for all things American…When I returned from the US, my cousins told me that they found me considerably less religious, and more anti-Indian… isn’t that an ironic statement? One would imagine from the garbage Indians spout on these boards that anyone who is anti-Indian is an Islamic fundamentalist… I was the biggest fan of Indian Music in my extended family… now I don’t sit in the same room if someone turns on Indian Music…
We all have biases... but they usually have a reason.. and I have given you mine.. So whats yours?
-YLH
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
FREEDOM STRUGGLE
First I want to speak of the Indian Arrogance… it seems to me that revisionism has led the Indian Nationalists to believe that no Muslim Leaguer was ever arrested for sedition… Nothing can be farthest from the truth… whereas it is true that Muslim League didn’t participate in the not very useful Quit India movement… Muslim Leaguers were arrested and tried for sedition especially in the closing stages of the Raj… (I personally don’t see what that proves though)…
Perhaps the most memorable act in the History of the ‘Freedom struggle’ was the raiding of the Punjab Secretariat in Feb 1947, when Muslim League women climbed atop the building, took off the British Flag and replaced it with the Muslim League flag… after that all of them were arrested… It is true that Jinnah was one unifying influence for them … but his statement that ‘I won Pakistan with my typewriter’ is an over-estimation of his own ability… No leader is strong without his people… and Jinnah’s strength with millions who rallied around him… the reason Jinnah wasn’t arrested in that critical last year of the Raj was not just because he carefuly remained inside the constitutional limits… One British official spoke of his prestige amongst the Muslims and likened it to that of the Mughal Emperors like Akbar-e-Azam … which the British naturally feared would cause a revolt in the whole of India if Jinnah was ever arrested.
… There were many Muslim League leaders in Punjab who were arrested … Infact the entire Leadership of the Punjab Muslim League spent many nights in Jail…Two major women leaders arrested in this period who later became famous as legislators and activists for Monogamy in Pakistan were:
Begum Jahan Ara Shahnawaz, 7 Months kaid ba mushaqat
Begum Tassadaq, 6 Months kaid ba mushaqat
Maybe there is some truth to the fact that British had during the war tried to use Muslim League’s differences with the Congress to its advantage… though it is also true that any anti-fascist worth his salt would have sided with the British during the war as the Muslim League did… but there is no disputing the fact that British considered Muslim League a potent threat after the war and did all it could to curb it…
Yet these sagas of ARRESTS doesn’t make the slightest difference… all leaders arrested in the 1930s were arrested to be propped up as leaders… (How could a seditious leader like Gandhi’s statues be sanctioned by the British Government in India ?? Have you given it some thought?) We have conclusive evidence of British strategy of creating demagogues in the Congress… and less successfully in the League… from 1937-1941 it was the league’s turn but the swelling up of League’s numbers through revitalization of it under Jinnah, made the British rethink their strategy… Congress’s miscalculation left the door open… Jinnah had played his hand very well… those like Bose in the Congress lost out their local gods… which eventually forced him to create that colossal failure the INA.
PAKISTAN’S ECONOMY
Secondly it seems that Indians are of the view that a few billion dollars of aid thrown our way in the 1980s was the only reason our country was relatively more prosperous than theirs… this is also a travesty of truth… yes Pakistan received aid… but Pakistan had concentrated, on advice of top Economists of the World, to the creation of a free market Economy from 1947-1972 and had done so very successfully… in the Economic Growth (not Economic development)… Then some of the illiberal policies of the Pseudo-Socialist Regime of Bhutto also favored such growth though the over all effect was negative… the Prosperity of the 1980s was not due to ‘Western Aid’… that aid should have helped us in the 1990s and not the 1980s… So Indians Please… give up this ill founded superiority complex that all of you seem to suffer from…
Pakistan is a country of tremendous Economic potential which is not yet tapped… We are also very rich in human resource sector… All this potential has been squandered… but that doesn’t mean we are able to… It is a fact that illegal immigrants from India of all religions are pouring into Pakistan… whether Emma Duncan specifically mentioned India in her book or not…
THE LANGUAGE ISSUE
This is not issue with Indians as such… but in general… when Pakistan was created, Urdu was as much spoken in West Pakistan as it was spoken in the East… It was not the language of Sindh, Baluchistan, Punjab or NWFP… as it was not the language of Bengal… It was chosen for its significance as a Muslim cultural language… remember Jinnah’s own mother tongue was Gujurati …
Bengalis had legitimate concerns in 1971… their treatment at the hands of west Pakistanis was horrific to say the least… the excesses committed against them are a sad chapter in the world’s history… their issues like their share in Economic development, were valid.. but the Language was a stupid issue… Now Punjabis are a majority… should Punjabis demand Punjabi as the National Language of Pakistan? It’s not like Jinnah told Bengalis that they couldn’t have Bengali as their provincial language… Infact he said ‘Bengali will be the Provincial Language of Bengal’ in that famous address that is castigated by the Bengalis… And its not like Bengali never became the state language… conceding to this obnoxious demand Bengali was made the official state language alongside Urdu in 1956 …
-YLH
Posted by
ylh
Aug 1, 2002 12:19 pm
There are a few issues I want to tackle in this post…FREEDOM STRUGGLE
First I want to speak of the Indian Arrogance… it seems to me that revisionism has led the Indian Nationalists to believe that no Muslim Leaguer was ever arrested for sedition… Nothing can be farthest from the truth… whereas it is true that Muslim League didn’t participate in the not very useful Quit India movement… Muslim Leaguers were arrested and tried for sedition especially in the closing stages of the Raj… (I personally don’t see what that proves though)…
Perhaps the most memorable act in the History of the ‘Freedom struggle’ was the raiding of the Punjab Secretariat in Feb 1947, when Muslim League women climbed atop the building, took off the British Flag and replaced it with the Muslim League flag… after that all of them were arrested… It is true that Jinnah was one unifying influence for them … but his statement that ‘I won Pakistan with my typewriter’ is an over-estimation of his own ability… No leader is strong without his people… and Jinnah’s strength with millions who rallied around him… the reason Jinnah wasn’t arrested in that critical last year of the Raj was not just because he carefuly remained inside the constitutional limits… One British official spoke of his prestige amongst the Muslims and likened it to that of the Mughal Emperors like Akbar-e-Azam … which the British naturally feared would cause a revolt in the whole of India if Jinnah was ever arrested.
… There were many Muslim League leaders in Punjab who were arrested … Infact the entire Leadership of the Punjab Muslim League spent many nights in Jail…Two major women leaders arrested in this period who later became famous as legislators and activists for Monogamy in Pakistan were:
Begum Jahan Ara Shahnawaz, 7 Months kaid ba mushaqat
Begum Tassadaq, 6 Months kaid ba mushaqat
Maybe there is some truth to the fact that British had during the war tried to use Muslim League’s differences with the Congress to its advantage… though it is also true that any anti-fascist worth his salt would have sided with the British during the war as the Muslim League did… but there is no disputing the fact that British considered Muslim League a potent threat after the war and did all it could to curb it…
Yet these sagas of ARRESTS doesn’t make the slightest difference… all leaders arrested in the 1930s were arrested to be propped up as leaders… (How could a seditious leader like Gandhi’s statues be sanctioned by the British Government in India ?? Have you given it some thought?) We have conclusive evidence of British strategy of creating demagogues in the Congress… and less successfully in the League… from 1937-1941 it was the league’s turn but the swelling up of League’s numbers through revitalization of it under Jinnah, made the British rethink their strategy… Congress’s miscalculation left the door open… Jinnah had played his hand very well… those like Bose in the Congress lost out their local gods… which eventually forced him to create that colossal failure the INA.
PAKISTAN’S ECONOMY
Secondly it seems that Indians are of the view that a few billion dollars of aid thrown our way in the 1980s was the only reason our country was relatively more prosperous than theirs… this is also a travesty of truth… yes Pakistan received aid… but Pakistan had concentrated, on advice of top Economists of the World, to the creation of a free market Economy from 1947-1972 and had done so very successfully… in the Economic Growth (not Economic development)… Then some of the illiberal policies of the Pseudo-Socialist Regime of Bhutto also favored such growth though the over all effect was negative… the Prosperity of the 1980s was not due to ‘Western Aid’… that aid should have helped us in the 1990s and not the 1980s… So Indians Please… give up this ill founded superiority complex that all of you seem to suffer from…
Pakistan is a country of tremendous Economic potential which is not yet tapped… We are also very rich in human resource sector… All this potential has been squandered… but that doesn’t mean we are able to… It is a fact that illegal immigrants from India of all religions are pouring into Pakistan… whether Emma Duncan specifically mentioned India in her book or not…
THE LANGUAGE ISSUE
This is not issue with Indians as such… but in general… when Pakistan was created, Urdu was as much spoken in West Pakistan as it was spoken in the East… It was not the language of Sindh, Baluchistan, Punjab or NWFP… as it was not the language of Bengal… It was chosen for its significance as a Muslim cultural language… remember Jinnah’s own mother tongue was Gujurati …
Bengalis had legitimate concerns in 1971… their treatment at the hands of west Pakistanis was horrific to say the least… the excesses committed against them are a sad chapter in the world’s history… their issues like their share in Economic development, were valid.. but the Language was a stupid issue… Now Punjabis are a majority… should Punjabis demand Punjabi as the National Language of Pakistan? It’s not like Jinnah told Bengalis that they couldn’t have Bengali as their provincial language… Infact he said ‘Bengali will be the Provincial Language of Bengal’ in that famous address that is castigated by the Bengalis… And its not like Bengali never became the state language… conceding to this obnoxious demand Bengali was made the official state language alongside Urdu in 1956 …
-YLH
Duck, Man, Duck!
Finally something worthwhile..
Thankyou temp...
Posted by
ylh
Jul 31, 2002 03:30 pm
Finally something worthwhile..
Thankyou temp...
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
``Are you aware she wrote the book 12-13 years ago in 1988/89``
Trying to be over clever eh???
I wrote:
``Anyway granted that this book was written more than a decade ago, but I have seen the constant flow of illegal immigrant scum from our neighboring countries, including India for the sake of employment … Then Please explain why do some of you attack Pakistan so violently, when your own poor and underprivileged run to it for prosperity?``
Can`t more than decade be 12 or 13 years ago?? Didn`t I say `more than decade ago`? So why the hell are you trying to be so over clever as to suggest that I didn`t know it was written in 1988?
And I wonder how the growth rate of near 7 in the 1950s and 1960s was related to the Afghanistan war? It is amazing that a few Billion dollars of Aid over 7 years made Pakistan a `local america`.. How blind can Indians be? Let me make it clear... yes we got aid for destabilizing our own country... but it was never enough to sustain the whole country... only layman with little or no knowledge of Economics would speak with such utter jahalat...
Regardless of the evidence that Emma Duncan gives... I tell you that Karachi is bustling with illegal Indians of all religions living in shantitowns... who have arrived over the last 10 years to Pakistan for a better life...Time to face the facts.. Don`t bite the hand that feeds you... or stop the scum from crossing the border..
-YLH
Posted by
ylh
Jul 31, 2002 03:30 pm
I have given the page... ``Are you aware she wrote the book 12-13 years ago in 1988/89``
Trying to be over clever eh???
I wrote:
``Anyway granted that this book was written more than a decade ago, but I have seen the constant flow of illegal immigrant scum from our neighboring countries, including India for the sake of employment … Then Please explain why do some of you attack Pakistan so violently, when your own poor and underprivileged run to it for prosperity?``
Can`t more than decade be 12 or 13 years ago?? Didn`t I say `more than decade ago`? So why the hell are you trying to be so over clever as to suggest that I didn`t know it was written in 1988?
And I wonder how the growth rate of near 7 in the 1950s and 1960s was related to the Afghanistan war? It is amazing that a few Billion dollars of Aid over 7 years made Pakistan a `local america`.. How blind can Indians be? Let me make it clear... yes we got aid for destabilizing our own country... but it was never enough to sustain the whole country... only layman with little or no knowledge of Economics would speak with such utter jahalat...
Regardless of the evidence that Emma Duncan gives... I tell you that Karachi is bustling with illegal Indians of all religions living in shantitowns... who have arrived over the last 10 years to Pakistan for a better life...Time to face the facts.. Don`t bite the hand that feeds you... or stop the scum from crossing the border..
-YLH
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
Before I log off... I must set to rest the new strawman fallacy that Ms.Sadna, in classic P-Mishra style, is inventing... I haven`t said that Emma Duncan said that there were illegal immigrants from India in particular... but that there were illegal immigrants in Pakistan from countries of the region...
Had Emma Duncan said that... Don`t you think I would have quoted it? So what kind of nonsense are you trying to pull... this is a lot like your buddy (and I suspect your other alias) P-mishra 2... and his nonsense about my claims about Bipan Chandra ...
-YLH
Posted by
ylh
Jul 31, 2002 03:30 pm
PUTTING A STRAWMAN FALLACY TO REST:Before I log off... I must set to rest the new strawman fallacy that Ms.Sadna, in classic P-Mishra style, is inventing... I haven`t said that Emma Duncan said that there were illegal immigrants from India in particular... but that there were illegal immigrants in Pakistan from countries of the region...
Had Emma Duncan said that... Don`t you think I would have quoted it? So what kind of nonsense are you trying to pull... this is a lot like your buddy (and I suspect your other alias) P-mishra 2... and his nonsense about my claims about Bipan Chandra ...
-YLH
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
Can anyone please tell me how the following quote suggests that Emma Duncan said it?
``but I have seen the constant flow of illegal immigrant scum from our neighboring countries, including India for the sake of employment``
Why are Indians like Sadna constantly trying to lie and misquote me? What is this twisted and unsavory mentality?
Posted by
ylh
Jul 31, 2002 03:30 pm
Can anyone please tell me how the following quote suggests that Emma Duncan said it?
``but I have seen the constant flow of illegal immigrant scum from our neighboring countries, including India for the sake of employment``
Why are Indians like Sadna constantly trying to lie and misquote me? What is this twisted and unsavory mentality?
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
While we are on the topic of balance, why hasn`t your `advice` about the `youth` never been extended to your own countrymen who more than anything I or Aisha can say are busy spreading hate all over these boards?
Or is there no balance when it comes to your own?
Like I said charity starts at home.. if you think Aisha is feeding hate... I don`t think Rsaxena, Harimau, Arjunm, the countless authors of hateful garbage against Pakistan etc are spreading any motis of love... So heed my advice... leave us ... pipe dream idealism can`t be imposed through fascistic means...
Or are you going to start denying our fundamental human rights as guaranteed by the UN Charter... like say the right to association? or opinion? or thought?
Posted by
ylh
Jul 31, 2002 03:30 pm
PS to Roohi,While we are on the topic of balance, why hasn`t your `advice` about the `youth` never been extended to your own countrymen who more than anything I or Aisha can say are busy spreading hate all over these boards?
Or is there no balance when it comes to your own?
Like I said charity starts at home.. if you think Aisha is feeding hate... I don`t think Rsaxena, Harimau, Arjunm, the countless authors of hateful garbage against Pakistan etc are spreading any motis of love... So heed my advice... leave us ... pipe dream idealism can`t be imposed through fascistic means...
Or are you going to start denying our fundamental human rights as guaranteed by the UN Charter... like say the right to association? or opinion? or thought?
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
Thankyou for wishes :)
Glad to see you back as well...
-YLH
PS: I just want to say.. no need giving my example to Divine Comedy... Divine Comedy is my other nick... I am bored of using just one nick...
Posted by
ylh
Jul 31, 2002 03:30 pm
KrashidThankyou for wishes :)
Glad to see you back as well...
-YLH
PS: I just want to say.. no need giving my example to Divine Comedy... Divine Comedy is my other nick... I am bored of using just one nick...
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
You are right... I can`t be accused of all the idealistic garbage that the youth you so admire... after all the results of that youth are infront of us aren`t they... (Wow we live in a world free of hunger war etc... I am sorry I kinda missed that transpiring) My concerns are more selfish... like doing something for the people of Pakistan... helping those who are below the poverty line... helping the Non-Muslim Minorities stand up on their feet... unleashing a just and egalitarian system in Pakistan... performing my civic responsibility as a conscientous citizen of Pakistan... working with Human Rights group to improve the Human Rights situation.. like creating a school and hospital for the people of my village ... these are my concerns... charity begins at home.. and I have a feeling if everyone in the world was a bit selfish like I am.. World wouldn`t be such a bad place... it was this `selfishness` which brought me back to Pakistan (Unlike arjunm would like to believe, I have one 5 year Student visa for the US valid thru 2003 and 1 5 year multiple visit visa for the United states valid way into 2007, and I can go there any time I want.. Unlike millions of your countrymen and mine, I didn`t indulge in illegal activities, unauthorized employment, drug smuggling or pumping gas at local gas station in New Jersey..)... So you decide is my `selfish` and `non-idealistic` realism more result oriented than the pipe dreams of the idealists that you want????
(I don`t want to speak for Aisha... but she too has worked extensively for the proliferation of IT in Pakistan... perhaps not so idealistic, but that creates jobs... Hang us thankyou very much)
When exactly did you join Chowk? Because there was a time I posted hundreds of posts with references to Amnesty International etc... Let me make it clear one more time.. None of References can be challenged... I was extremely honest in posting them... Many of your own countrymen will bear witness to the fact that I have always quoted sources... If you didn`t read them then, then that is your fault.. If you live in the US, it is very EASY for you to find out for yourself.. I am not your servant, nor is my quoting of Amnesty International going to solve anything for the Kashmiri people.. pathetic that you would ask me for the Amnesty International reports now that I am in Lahore and don`t have the same resources... If you think, I am a liar... prove it... go find the evidence to the contrary... but you won`t because what I have claimed is always based on a valid source. And seriously... you can`t change the truth by cornering someone...
Humsab...
Everyone has a view of Jinnah`s position as Governor General.. I don`t think the author is speaking of democracy as much as he is suggesting that Jinnah would have preferred a Presidential system if you see the gist of it... besides noone is saying he was perfect but like the author of the article you quoted says:
``Here is a man whose very name has become eponymous for integrity, honesty, dedication and straight talk; even his worst enemies would not deny him these qualities. As we read his speeches more than half a century later particularly his inaugural of 11 August 1947, one has a better measure of his wisdom. He was a reticent man; his words were spare and they will echo for ever in the corridor of our history.``
Yet people like you are unwilling to concede this... By the way... May I know why you chose to honor Jinnah this way?
``Of course I dont expect you to understand this, given that your country won its freedom through Jinnah`s type-writer.``
Well like you said... Jinnah was not perfect... yes he was the guiding light ... but he was wrong if he said that his type writer won us the freedom... My mother`s great grandfather was deprived of his lands in 1940 after he switched to the League from the Unionist Party... In 1946`s Muslim league`s Civil Disobedience campaign jails were filled with women and men of the League... there are factual accounts of all of this... you are welcome to read them...
I asked a simple question with no real malice... but instead I got stupid and idiotic sneers? Is this the Indian way?
Posted by
ylh
Jul 31, 2002 03:30 pm
Roohi,You are right... I can`t be accused of all the idealistic garbage that the youth you so admire... after all the results of that youth are infront of us aren`t they... (Wow we live in a world free of hunger war etc... I am sorry I kinda missed that transpiring) My concerns are more selfish... like doing something for the people of Pakistan... helping those who are below the poverty line... helping the Non-Muslim Minorities stand up on their feet... unleashing a just and egalitarian system in Pakistan... performing my civic responsibility as a conscientous citizen of Pakistan... working with Human Rights group to improve the Human Rights situation.. like creating a school and hospital for the people of my village ... these are my concerns... charity begins at home.. and I have a feeling if everyone in the world was a bit selfish like I am.. World wouldn`t be such a bad place... it was this `selfishness` which brought me back to Pakistan (Unlike arjunm would like to believe, I have one 5 year Student visa for the US valid thru 2003 and 1 5 year multiple visit visa for the United states valid way into 2007, and I can go there any time I want.. Unlike millions of your countrymen and mine, I didn`t indulge in illegal activities, unauthorized employment, drug smuggling or pumping gas at local gas station in New Jersey..)... So you decide is my `selfish` and `non-idealistic` realism more result oriented than the pipe dreams of the idealists that you want????
(I don`t want to speak for Aisha... but she too has worked extensively for the proliferation of IT in Pakistan... perhaps not so idealistic, but that creates jobs... Hang us thankyou very much)
When exactly did you join Chowk? Because there was a time I posted hundreds of posts with references to Amnesty International etc... Let me make it clear one more time.. None of References can be challenged... I was extremely honest in posting them... Many of your own countrymen will bear witness to the fact that I have always quoted sources... If you didn`t read them then, then that is your fault.. If you live in the US, it is very EASY for you to find out for yourself.. I am not your servant, nor is my quoting of Amnesty International going to solve anything for the Kashmiri people.. pathetic that you would ask me for the Amnesty International reports now that I am in Lahore and don`t have the same resources... If you think, I am a liar... prove it... go find the evidence to the contrary... but you won`t because what I have claimed is always based on a valid source. And seriously... you can`t change the truth by cornering someone...
Humsab...
Everyone has a view of Jinnah`s position as Governor General.. I don`t think the author is speaking of democracy as much as he is suggesting that Jinnah would have preferred a Presidential system if you see the gist of it... besides noone is saying he was perfect but like the author of the article you quoted says:
``Here is a man whose very name has become eponymous for integrity, honesty, dedication and straight talk; even his worst enemies would not deny him these qualities. As we read his speeches more than half a century later particularly his inaugural of 11 August 1947, one has a better measure of his wisdom. He was a reticent man; his words were spare and they will echo for ever in the corridor of our history.``
Yet people like you are unwilling to concede this... By the way... May I know why you chose to honor Jinnah this way?
``Of course I dont expect you to understand this, given that your country won its freedom through Jinnah`s type-writer.``
Well like you said... Jinnah was not perfect... yes he was the guiding light ... but he was wrong if he said that his type writer won us the freedom... My mother`s great grandfather was deprived of his lands in 1940 after he switched to the League from the Unionist Party... In 1946`s Muslim league`s Civil Disobedience campaign jails were filled with women and men of the League... there are factual accounts of all of this... you are welcome to read them...
I asked a simple question with no real malice... but instead I got stupid and idiotic sneers? Is this the Indian way?
- ylh
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