Fate Thank you everyone for taking the time to comment.

Most Pakistani women who are victims of domestic violence have little control over their destiny. They have no means of making an independent living and supporting their children, and no support from their own families. Even if they do run away, they are accused of zina and thrown in jail. Just read the latest Human Rights Commission of Pakistan report on women in jail.

Blaming fate, of course, is just a proxy for accepting the status quo.

Fozia, you are a popular lady back home in my household.

T. Ahmed:

``What kind of a place would it be where one ``would not want to go?`` I have yet to find a place under the sun, on any continent, that was less than fully exciting.``

I was refering to places where one is tortured/beaten/ridiculed etc

Anita

Dear Chowk Readers Dr. Hoodbhoy,

I can offer technical help with the ``Smart Drugs, Smarter Bacteria`` topic.

You can write to me at anita@chowk.com or get my number from Naseem.

Anita

Imran Khan: Pakistan’s Next PM? The exchange between mayhem and bilal ahmed is interesting. As you both state, the reality isn`t as simple as saying children should be educated and providing a classroom, teachers, and books. Parents in developing environments depend heavily on childrens earnings, as well as contributions to household chores. In rural areas, children are needed for firewood gathering and transporting water. Many have shown in Pakistan and elsewhere that even after controlling for income, there is a strong correlation between distance from firewood and water and number of children a family has. In these subsistence conditions of day-to-day survival, it is difficult for parents to ignore current reality and focus on potential future benefits realized through their childrens education.

We need creative solutions - perhaps teaching a combination of didactic and practical skills whose value can be realized in the near future, or restricting the school day to 3 hours, or small stipends to students ...

Anita

Marriage from a Man’s Point of View Hey Abrar,

``When in doubt, smile and nod`` doesn`t work. You have to SOUND intelligent too :) Smile and nod just means hubby isn`t listening - its unacceptable!

AZ

Water of Life Conspiracy theories aside, isn`t it sad that we live in a world where Coke and Pepsi are more accessible than clean drinking water?

AZ

Fishhooks Masterfully crafted! Excellent read!

AZ

Nuclear powers can count too! Mohammad Ali Syed,

You bring up the very important point of accurate enumeration of the population as one way of dismantling the stranglehold of the feudals, because it will show that a much more significant portion of the population is now urban. That was the hope with the 1998 census. Note that I say `was`, b/c our feudal friends are also very aware of this possibility. You also very astutely wonder why the census hasn`t been released until now, after all the hype.

In fact, after much prodding, the GoP did release the gross counts to certain development agencies it was seeking loans from. According to these numbers, our population mix of rural/urban has largely remained unchanged in the last 17 years (I`ve listed the figures below) - the overall urban population only increased by 4%, from 28.3 to 32.5%. Demographers and economists looking at the data immediately suspected data tampering and asked Islamabad to release raw data, or at least more details - a request that they fielded. I last tried to get this 3 or 4 months ago, and then I gave up. You can send a faxed request and see what happens.

Population Census Organization
Statistics Division
Government of Pakistan
(fax) 9251-822396

Here`s what I have (obtained from what they sent to World Bank)

PROVISIONAL RESULTS OF FIFTH POPULATION AND HOUSING CENSUS HELD IN MARCH 1998

From Table incorporated in point 13

Total Pakistan Population (000)
1981: 84254
1998: 130,580

NWFP: 1981:11061
1998: 17555

FATA: 1981: 2,199
1998: 3,138

PUNJAB: 1981: 47292
1998: 72585 (annual population growth rate was 2.74 in 1981, and 2.55 in 1998)

SINDH: 1981: 19029
1998: 29991 (annual population growth rate has decreased most remarkably from 3.56 in 1981 to 2.71 in 1998)

BALOCHISTAN: 1981: 4332
1998: 6511 (annual pop growth rate again shows marked decrease from 7.09 % to 2.42 %)

ISLAMABAD: 1981: 340
1998: 799

URBAN PROPORTIONS (from table incorporated in point 16)

1981 1998
PAKISTAN 28.3% 32.5%
NWFP 15.1 16.9
FATA 0 2.7
PUNJAB 27.6 31.3
SINDH 43.3 48.9
BALOCHISTAN 15.6 23.3
ISLAMABAD 60 65.6

You can work out the actual number of people from the counts given above. For example, according to this census, there are 14.6 million people in urban Sindh, and 22.7 million in urban Punjab, but 15.3 million in rural Sindh, and 49.9 million in rural Punjab.

AZ

Nuclear powers can count too! Mohammad Ali Syed,

You bring up the very important point of accurate enumeration of the population as one way of dismantling the stranglehold of the feudals, because it will show that a much more significant portion of the population is now urban. That was the hope with the 1998 census. Note that I say `was`, b/c our feudal friends are also very aware of this possibility. You also very astutely wonder why the census hasn`t been released until now, after all the hype.

In fact, after much prodding, the GoP did release the gross counts to certain development agencies it was seeking loans from. According to these numbers, our population mix of rural/urban has largely remained unchanged in the last 17 years (I`ve listed the figures below) - the overall urban population only increased by 4%, from 28.3 to 32.5%. Demographers and economists looking at the data immediately suspected data tampering and asked Islamabad to release raw data, or at least more details - a request that they fielded. I last tried to get this 3 or 4 months ago, and then I gave up. You can send a faxed request and see what happens.

Population Census Organization
Statistics Division
Government of Pakistan
(fax) 9251-822396

Here`s what I have (obtained from what they sent to World Bank)

PROVISIONAL RESULTS OF FIFTH POPULATION AND HOUSING CENSUS HELD IN MARCH 1998

From Table incorporated in point 13

Total Pakistan Population (000)
1981: 84254
1998: 130,580

NWFP: 1981:11061
1998: 17555

FATA: 1981: 2,199
1998: 3,138

PUNJAB: 1981: 47292
1998: 72585 (annual population growth rate was 2.74 in 1981, and 2.55 in 1998)

SINDH: 1981: 19029
1998: 29991 (annual population growth rate has decreased most remarkably from 3.56 in 1981 to 2.71 in 1998)

BALOCHISTAN: 1981: 4332
1998: 6511 (annual pop growth rate again shows marked decrease from 7.09 % to 2.42 %)

ISLAMABAD: 1981: 340
1998: 799

URBAN PROPORTIONS (from table incorporated in point 16)

1981 1998

PAKISTAN 28.3% 32.5%
NWFP 15.1 16.9
FATA 0 2.7
PUNJAB 27.6 31.3
SINDH 43.3 48.9
BALOCHISTAN 15.6 23.3
ISLAMABAD 60 65.6

You can work out the actual number of people from the counts given above. For example, according to this census, there are 14.6 million people in urban Sindh, and 22.7 million in urban Punjab, but 15.3 million in rural Sindh, and 49.9 million in rural Punjab.

AZ

The Decline and Fall of Pakistan Well-written Feroz. However, in my opinion, this whole debate of secularism versus theocracy is premature in the Pakistani context. Secularism is not something that one can impose from the top - it creeps up on a nation insidously, when most people realize that an ideology based on love and respect of fellow human beings is much more powerful and compelling than one based on worship of an omnipotent and fierce diety. And we can only get on that road with education - the ability to read - that is the crying need of the moment!

In this context it is ironic that the Internet is widening the differential between the literate and non-literate, and spawning a new kind of poverty - information poverty. This is why the arrest of someone like Najam Sethi will never start mass protests. The common person in Pakistan does not see his value because the common person in Pakistan does not read. And those who can, do not have the numbers or the courage to start anything.

Also, did you come across the Dawn report from May 8, reporting that UNESCO rejected the government`s findings on the state of literacy in the country, implying that most of the data were cooked, to please donor agencies that enough is being done.

It is imperative upon us, the citizens of Pakistan to take public education in our own hands, form organizations like the Citizens Foundation, and the rest will follow.

AZ

Lies of the Western ‘Science of Islam’ Re: Ali Minai

This has been a fascinating discussion and truly thought-provoking for me. Ali, really hope you can continue to edify the two of us.

Regarding highly complex self-organized systems, one only has to look at the mess that the American health care is in (the only industrialized country with an unregulated system), to know it isn`t a panacea for all ills.
Which makes me ask, why the assumption that self-organized systems would be the most efficient? Self-organized health care turns out to be highly inefficient, despite the unleashing of market forces by creating the managed care environment - a movement which (thankfully) is turning out to be a spectacular failure.

To paraphrase you Ali, complex self-organized systems are inherently unjust to society`s weak, because they operate under the principle of maximizing utility for the system, not caring for those left by the wayside. By extrapolation, we should kill all the disabled and the infirm for the benefit of the system.

To my way of thinking, the optimum system would borrow from both structures - akin to the way the human body is organized. A central command and control center in the cortex - yet each cell is functionally self-contained, with its own genetic material, many of which cooperate to form organs.

Anita

Lies of the Western ‘Science of Islam’ Re: Ali Minai

``also think, a converse question: Can the separation between Church and State endure, or will a `churchless` state eventually produce its own orthodoxy? I will leave that topic for another time.``

Do we not have that already Ali? Isn`t what the Founding Fathers enshrined in the Constitution to be taken as Gospel? Hence the right to bear arms.

Also, IMHO it is much easier for Muslim men to talk about vague concepts of humanism as not in direct conflict with Islamic teachings. For women, the two are somewhat irreconcilable! Begin to resolve that, then we`ll get somewhere.

Anita

Sex Lives and Stereotypes Re: Zehra, and ``mostly everyone in Pakistan is bisexual...i got my facts from actual people and their actual biographies ..``

Let`s see, Pakistan has 140 million people, about 60-70 million over age 15. How many people did you get oral histories from to decide that most of them were bisexual?
AZ

Sex Lives and Stereotypes Re:``.....mostly everyone in pakistan is bisexual. it is because of the seperation of the sexes...[conclusion] based on oral histories...better measure than academic papers and researches...``

Lady, this is complete bull!

AZ

Another Hope Killed Thank you Feroze and Shandana for all your efforts to help.

The situation is even worse than when I submitted this to Chowk.

According to Atiq Rahman (the suspect in custody), he carried out the plan with another person, a local thug called Ali Shah. Atiq Rahman identified and lured the victim to his house by saying that his brother from the US had sent him gifts. And then they placed the ransom calls. They were hoping to get the money because of the poor child`s US connection, since Atiq Rahman knew that the parents themselves were poor.

Ali Shah was initially detained by the police on suspicion of kidnapping (before Farrukh`s body was found), but released because the police inspector Garaya, got phone calls from local politicians. His family is well-connected. When Dr. Amjad Ali`s family lodged a complaint against the police inspector, he was transferred to another town.

Meanwhile, Ali Shah`s family has conveyed multiple death threats to Dr. Amjad Ali`s family in Gujrat, specifically against his father and brother-in-law, if they choose to pursue any further action against Ali Shah. Amjad is very scared about what the proper course of action should be, and of the risks to his family, but on the balance wants to get justice.

But one has to wonder - what price should one be willing to pay, to get justice, in this lawless land of ours.

Anita

P.S
Also, multiple e-mails were written to Nawaz Sharif, and other government officials, and no action was taken.

Another Hope Killed Also, Amjad`s e-mail addresses are listed in the intro, for anyone who wishes to contact him personally, with advice.

anita

Another Hope Killed Thank you Feroz for the very useful suggestions. Any phone calls that you can make would be tremendously appreciated. I think Amjad is waiting to get a password so he can respond personally.

I was hoping that AA would also have some suggestions, and that the bona fide journalists and writers among us, such as Bina Shah and Shandana would also write in local newspapers to get some additional coverage and pressure on the police.

Anita