I Cheat Therefore I Am Re: AD #104

Gandhi`s call for civil disobedience, etc, were completely irrelevant in that the British left because they were exhausted after WWII and the new Labour government was much more concerned with building its version of a modern welfare state in England. The British Empire, at least the metropole component of it, was completely exhausted and virtually bankrupt.

The entire gold reserves had been transferred to the US during WWII and the home country owed the US and the white dominions a massive war debt. Between the casualties of WWII, its cost, the debt burden, and the general exhaustion, India simply was not worth the bother. Don`t forget, basic rationing of food items continued all through the end of the 1940s in the UK and some items were rationed as late as the early 1950s. As late as the end of the 1950s, large-scale bomb damage was still visible in large parts of London: that is, the capital of the greatest empire history has ever known was still not fully repaired ten years after the war was over.

As far as Churchill is concerned, he was not PM when India was given its independence. Perhaps if he was still PM, i.e., Labour had not won in 1945, in 1947, then things might have been different. But don`t forget, there were mutinies among the BRITISH troops in India (the RAF, I believe) when their transfer back to the UK was delayed by a few weeks. The British had simply, for a time, lost the will to keep their empire. All they wanted was to be shed of the British Indian Empire as fast as they could. It is less than edifying to our colective self-esteem but our, and your, ``Freedom Fighters`` did not win our Independence from the British. The group of Britishers then in power decided that it was not worth the trouble.

If the British had decided to stay on in power and rule by force, I have no doubt that they could have managed. The key to the situation was the Army and the Army, being Punjabi, was loyal as long as the Punjab was loyal. During WWII, out of 2.5 million men in the Army, the largest all-volunteer force in history, about 2/3 were, I believe, Punjabi (Sikh, PM and Hindus). Things only got bad once the British made it clear to all and sundry that they were indeed going to leave. Then, loyalty to the Raj became pointless.

I once asked some uncles of mine who were in the Army in WWII what the Army would have done if the British had decided to use it to put down rebellions/civil-disobedience in India. Their unanimous response was that as long as it wasn`t used in the Punjab, the loyalty of the Army would not have wavered.

So sorry to disillusion you old boy, but no go. The freedom movement was not the key factor in Indian independence.

Vomit Sudheendra:

A very warm welcome to Chowk. A couple of things you and others may want to keep in mind.

Pakistani society and correspondingly its elite is not as homeogenous as most people think. Hamid`s book has focused on the elite in Lahore which is only natural since he spent most of his life there and this is his first book(which in most cases has strong autobiographical tones). The upper crust in Karachi or Islamabad and even other parts of the country not only comprises of people with different backgrounds but may also differ radically in their mores and modes of behaviour.

I agree with you that the author is entirely at sea when he tries to incorporate the larger canvas of Pakistani society,its history and its economics in his story-telling. In his defence though, that may have been a massive undertaking and he may have deliberately decided to play coy(or some overzealous editor cut those parts out).

Pakistani elite right now is at war with itself due to the drastic reduction in the spoils that the state largesse allowed in the earlier decades. Corrupt to the core it might have been but at least it was united in its abhorrence of the mullahs and other reactionary elements. The present state of disarray is allowing these elements to not only strengthen but present the masses with a viable alternative. A prospect which you or your eminent bosses may not wish to confront.

later

-sac

Remember the Magic Dear Happy one:

As an allegorist, you have a right to talk in riddles. After reading all your posts besides the story, I am still puzzled about who and what hurt you.

``What threw me was the intense culture clash with the settled immigrants of my own ethnicity. I have since observed and experienced this culture clash (which diminishes with time) with great interest``

Intense culture clash?

``It is my personal resolve to not fall in that trap and look down upon fresh immigrants.... but I am reminded constantly of this phenomena by the lack of discrimination I face now that I am a part of the `audience`.``

I think you should do more than ` not looking down upon` the FOB`s. Go the airport every weekend, bring some FOB`s home and shelter them from, the beast.

``While my uncle & aunt (after 25 yrs) still have values, accent, friends, eating habits, etc. that are very `ethnic`, that is not at all the case with me.``

Did your aunt not give you food? Did she make you sleep on the floor? Did your cousins make fun of you? Were you thrown out on the street after three days?

``So I can talk football and I can hang out at a titty bar with a bunch of guys and slip dollar bills under garters (both of which I quite enjoy :)... therefore it is OK for me to be a desi wearing a kurta on a construction site.``

Extremely painful things to do for a FOB. So glad you survived the ordeal.

I hope you wear a Pyjama under the Kurta.

Did your wife accompany you on these outings or did she go with the girls to male stripper joints?

``This `discrimination` is also at a `micro-social` level. It rears up its ugly head in little parties and gatherings.``

What discrimination? No chairs, no drinks or no food? Were you asked to go mingle with the kids?

Did people shut up whenever you showed up? Did they talk in whispers behind your back?

If you are mulling over these slights, insults and `look down upons`, five years after the events, only YOU are responsible for the beatings. Get over it.

As hundreds of Mexicans are preparing right now to sneak over the border to work for a pittance and live in squalor, your sob story fails to pull at my heart strings. Sorry.

``Some got their leotards bloodier than others. The reason why you havnt met the beast yet is because you dont want to meet him. The day you decide to meet him, he will show up. And By god he`ll knock the crud outta you.``

I have enough demons of my own to worry about meeting your puny beast. Thank god, I do not believe in God, specially the kind who sends beasts to bloody children like you in leotrads.

Stick to allegory. It becomes you.

Of Vista Points and Immortality Dear Crypto:

A sensible analysis on the Kashmir issue in a while from the Pakistani point of view. I believe this is the first time, a Pakistani (or even Indian) analyst has made the following observation:

``This option would have proved even more difficult than the first option, especially in the absence of any large scale inflow of refugees into Pakistan from i-Kashmir. (This is true even now).``

In 1947, five million Hindus and Sikhs were driven out of W. Pakistan in less than six months.

East Pakistan saw out-flow of ten million refugees, mostly Hindus, in less than a year. Bosnia saw close to a million Muslim refugees within couple of months. Afterwards no more than two thousand bodies were found by Nato forces.

How come the seven hundred thousand Neo-nazi rapist Indian forces( A lean mean killing machine according to some rhyming Pakistani) have not been able to drive three million Muslims out of the Kashmir valley into Azad Kashmir after ten years? Are they pelting the terrorists with marigold flowers or using bad jokes to make them die laughing? Or could it be, on just an outside chance, that GOI has given them express orders to avoid targetting the civilians?

Something is definitely amiss in all the Pakistani slogans on Chowk.

Crazy about my beloved Barbara Urstruly,

Just out of curiosity - do you still remember the phrase you were asked to repeat?

I studied at KU myself… and lived around that area for many many years. In mid 1980’s, when ethnic madness was at its peak, these hoodlums murdered our sabzi wala right outside our home. He was from Hazara, and we grew up watching him deliver vegetables to our neighborhood. They slashed his throat with a knife and took his gullak - perhaps as a souvenir for killing their enemy…. He was still alive when I got to him…I can never forget his face – the blood that was gushing out of his throat, the shakes of his body just before he died…It was an experience which left me completely disillusioned about everything in life. Later on, his brother came from his mulk, and told us that he had a family back in hazara (three kids and a wife) dependent on his income…and of course, they must have loved him very much… I wish it were the kind-hearted eunuch, you mentioned in your earlier post, running the country at that time instead of Murd-e-moomin Murd-e-Haq.

One Hundred Voices Just wanted to say that some of the replies are more disgusting than the incident itself... the great excuse that it happens in other societies,

especially US, is most so lame ... and in reply :

First of all we don`t see priests and preachers

in cloaks going around malls grabbing women, for either satisfaction or punishment (to her)..

Next, the woodstock and bar scenes are a wrong comparison, because people are in a drunken state, to the happening in a mall/bus/street in normal day-to-day life - not that it should be condoned, but they are different

And compared to the amount of time a women spends out in a western society and the number of women there are out, such incidents are negligible fraction of a woman`s life AND she/society are usually well prepared to handle it ..

And an incident like this in a generally oppressive environment (to women), like in pakistan, has a more severe effect on woman, than would a similar incident happening in a more open and sexually un-segregated society.

Finally, a general ignorance, helplessness and frustations of life in pakistan add to the severity of the incident .. For example, a bunch of rowdy audience in movies in US (which is uncommon anyway) causes you less concern (i got a free ticket after complaining to the manager) than the same incient in pakistan.. why?

In Defence of Desi Pun re sadna #51:

Textiles may contribute 25% of Indian exports but what does that it actually mean? You are buying something for 5 rupees and selling it for 4 rupees in the international market. Now that`s an ingenious scheme which only a commission or commitee can conjure up :) Lack of internal demand in India has caused it to dump its textiles just to get foreign exchange. A strategy that will ultimately destroy whatever industry that is left. Infact apart from IT there is not even a single growing economic sector in India. My objective is not to belittle India`s progress but simply point out that numbers have to be handled with care.

As far as drug money and all I remember reading this article in the WSJ about India being the only country in the world that is legally allowed to produce morphine(or was it hash:) in order to be exported to the industrialized world. Infact Indian farmers were up in arms because the WTO wanted to take away that monopoly. Maybe Pakistan should also ask for being an exclusive supplier of heroin for the teeming masses :)

later

-sac

P.S: I`d rather believe anecdotal evidence than trust than some government commission run by corrupt bureaucrats.

Tania ``you and your super liberalism``

I hope you were not referring to my posts. Let me clarify right now. I am NOT a liberal (I do not want to give those people a bad name) and I would much rather uphold ``wanton crassitude`` over your conservatism. Why ? because the common people are crass and crude and the common people are better than your elitist, religious, militaristic, feudalistic ``smooth``ness. That is why I like the Punjabi people - they are sincere and straightforward, even ``munh phat`` (open mouthed) and simple minded unlike the Imams/ Qaris (who are either too abrasive or too politician-like) I prefer ``crass and crude but true`` to dis honest, artificial & fanatical: ``if you bring Sahaba and rasool allah into this then I will kill you`` - that is pretty much the only straightforward thing that comes out of their mouths.

``Why, that was quite beautiful! It was not just breaking down the old temples but providing a vision of a new one.``

Why do we need temples my dear PM ? Why do we need me to provide visions. YOU are a visionary yourself. I say everyone can build their own temples. Everyone can be the god of their own temples. It is lazy to demand temples and ideaology that replaces Islam. It would be slavish and sluggish to demand alternatives from people like yourself. Besides the temples I build are often just small enough for one man (me) and too fragile. My temples are women.

There are no messiahs and prophets (only people who are turned into messiahs and prophets and gods). We do not have to look for Ataturks and Martin Luther Kings ( so why do you say ? ``so instead of looking-up to our CE, we should start looking for a martin luther king``)

I ask you my fellow human beings : why wait? or look up to anyone? What if I were to tell you that YOU ARE ATATURK and YOU ARE MARTIN LUTHER KING. YOU ARE EVERYTHING you are looking for. You are the King and the slave - why do you look for leaders? why do you hand over your proud reigns to others?

So pick up that butchers knife and head straight for your local masjid (just kidding), pick up those years of frustration and anger and helplessness and start speaking against the religion that has made you submit- the religion of ``submission`` (starting with your own : Islam, hinduism, christianity etc.).

Then watch the rage of those who have no temples of their own. Witness the helpless tantrums of those who are parasitically feeding off of ready-made (pre cooked and pre-canned) ``divine`` morality. Heed not their braying because they are slaves ``abd allah``- they are mindless ``samena wa ataana`` (we hear and obey) and are subhuman because they choose to submit (to Islam = ``submission``) they carry this life like a donkey bearing its burden (life is a test a burden) Be amazed at the caw-cawing of these vultures who feed off the dead carcasses of primitive 6th century morality. It is time we buried that 6th century morality 6 feet under the ground.

One Hundred Voices Some of the replies are more distasteful than the incident itself. Slink, I am proud of you for how you handled the whole thing. And I thank you for sharing it with us. You are one hell of a woman! BTW, where is this point?

If you ever lived in Pakistan and traveled in buses as a boy, you must have experienced touching/groping or pressing of an erect penis against your backside… I did…. many a times…and I always felt dirty, disgusted, and helpless…We didn’t have a teacher like Shandhana in our school who could counsel us & teach us about how to respond when faced with such a situation. However, towards the end of my schooling life, I was totally sick of this and would respond very violently (often with the help of three or four other boys) to whoever did that to me or to any of my friends…. Most of the offending men were middle aged, and a lot of them had beards too…interestingly, if the man had a beard, people would often intervene on his behalf saying, “why are you beating Sufi sahib?” And the man would immediately start regurgitating religious stuff in his defense…people, despite knowing that the man is guilty, would ask us to forgive him because of his age, and his beard…”chaloo theek hai, lakin un ki dhari kaa tu khyal karo” or “Allah Rasool ka naam lay raaha hai bus jany doo yaar” or “tumharay baap ki umar ka hai, janay doo” … at times, we got so violent that we later feared that we may have actually killed the man, and would not travel in the bus for few day…or sometimes completely skip the school….but we didn’t know any other way of defending our dignity at that time…of course complaining to the law enforcement was like a joke, and talking about such things at school, especially with our teachers was unheard of…..bohat mushkil waqt tha.

I am sure this still goes on in the buses.

One Hundred Voices ``You must not have traveled in a crowded subway in NY. It happens every day. ``

Yes I see a lot of beardos in the subway too. I heard from the INS that there numbers are growing faster than ever since they are fleeing talibans and Arafats and Gaddafis and GIA (algerian Islamic group) and Saddams and Malaysian/ Indonesian fanatics etc. Gawd since they started pouring into the country -nothing has been safe. Let me give you a few stories.

Its early in the morning and this fat guy was reciting ayats from the Quran at the top of his voice. He was not just reciting he seemed to be hitting people with the verses - shouting and screaming at them using ayats from Yaseen.

Example #2: this labanese arab in that checkered dupatta ( that arafat always wears over his head) was sitting taking up three seats all at once. He had on a pair of military fatigues and pushed people all over the place when his station came. What was most infuriating was he bumped into this MTA (metra noth`s) conductor on the way out and actually humped her before leaving the subway.

I think a lot of Muslim men need to either come to the US with their wives (and 17 children) or they should come with some sort of a surgical procedure performed on their genitalia that will prevent them from harassing all the women and giving the rest of us men a bad name.

Near 96th street there is this big mosque - and where sexually frustrated Muslims go on Friday nights (cuz they cant get dates). The rate of assault on women is highest. That part of NY is famous of multiple serial rapists and people who run other people over with cars (because they are driving too fast ? why? cuz they are late for their prayers)- who come to the States with little respect for the ``darty white people`` and their faces with ``phitkar`` who actually HATE the United States and its citizens and spend their free time making bombs in their cramped NYC apartments.

And we don`t live in a sorry world. This world is beautiful and so are the people who are not brainwashed by cults. There are lots of loving and kind people only none in YOUR sorry world. It is ok in this world to trust others- its ok to love strangers, its good to be kind and gentle and open to others (irrespective of race, religion or sex). Sometimes bad people come in and hurt you when you are open but that does not mean we will stop loving human beings because that is exactly what the fanatics want ``love not one another but instead love god`` ``gods rights above human rights (huqooq al ibaad vs. huqooq al insaan)`` [not a world where fathers can slaughter/ abandon their sons (like Abraham), and uncles can slay their nephews all in the name of Allah (like the sahaba) ]

One Hundred Voices ``yeh wo pagal larki hai jo bohat ajeeb si harkatain karti hai. ``

wohooo ...

I see you have come across the mall maulvi who love teaching a lesson to all the ``nangi ladkian`` (or ``naked women`` defined as women without veils).

Islamic Thinking 101 : women who do not wear veils (or women in jeans or women in western clothing or women who frequent malls [1]) are ``sl_uts`` or ``hermaphrodites`` or ``sexually deviant and out of control``.

I love s.l.u.t.s (as far as I am concerned) but NOT wearing a veil or walking around in ``western clothing`` hardly qualifies you as one. According to them such women _``deserve``_ everything from sexual harassment to rape and forceful marriage to ``chastise`` them and show them the light. According to them the ``market`` is the den of corruption and all women who frequent markets are loose women. Is it any wonder Khadija had to govern her business empire from her home while Mohammad went to the market?

It is a way of making the loose women ``suffer the consequences of taking liberties with their attire``. It is a way of forcing them ``to realize their worth``. It is a way of preventing their own daughters and mothers from rebelling ``Sakina goes to the mall dressed in a dupatta why can`t I?`` ``Well you cannot be a loose woman like sakina because if you do you will be groped and harassed``. This is guerilla warfare on women and liberty.

You see when a woman is harassed or assaulted it is not the man`s fault but the woman`s fault ``Why were you wearing jeans? why can`t you walk around in a dupatta?`` or if the woman was not wearing jeans ``Why were you wearing a see through dupatta - you should wear a veil`` or if the woman was not wearing a dupatta but an entire veil ``why were you not inside the house where a woman belongs? if you go out you will invite such trouble!``.

You give up or give them room on one front and they will demand another piece of you. You give them one inch and they will claim a foot. Fight everytime and NEVER compromise for anyone`s sake because we are dealing with mentally ill people who will not let up their offensive on humanity (``fight until there is no opposition and the earth is for Allah``).

I personally fight for an uncompromising elimination of religion and establishment of ``love of human beings because they are human beings not because they are Muslims or blacks or whites or women or men`` (be it sufism, be it some other diluted version of Islam) - no more ``compromise``, no more ``alternate interpretations``, no more ``slow progress``. They are on a slash and burn rampage through Pakistan -why should we talk of compromise? Drive them out like they did in Kargil.

side note:

I personally like being groped and touced by women (goodness knows they have to catch up with centuries of men doing the same to them) but as far as women are concerned one should always ask before groping them. I know I do. Most of them laugh really hard. Which is neither a yes or a no but a very heart warming experience (``I am such a genius! I made her laugh``).

[1]

Hadith number 1416 Book 004 of Sahih Muslim ``The parts if land dearest to Allah are its mosques and the parts most HATEFUL to Allah are markets``.

Beware, Now That You Have Left Your Homes I wonder how many western people feel the need to write poems describing to Indo-Paks how much better life is in the west compared to the sub-continent.

Chowk Tales I re sadna #13:

Agreed. BTW when are we going to see some contribution from you on this site?

re dL #15:

I am afraid we are both on the other side of the looking glass. And since we don`t know our destination it doesn`t really matter which road we take ;-)

later

-sac

P.S: Hope things are well in London.

Say Something Let’s Talk Re: ylh #19

Yasser is absolutely correct when he says that Islam is compatible with democracy. Just look at Iran--just about the most democratic Islamic country going. Actually, anything is compatible with democracy--apartheid, concentration camps, what not.

Islam is, however, not compatible with liberal democracy, and netither are the other things that I have mentioned. That is why the Greeks (or at least Aristotle), the coiner of the term, considered democracy to be really nothing more than mob rule. It is the adherence to liberal constitutional principles that makes democracy superior to all other forms of government.

Regards.